Help with settings for action dance photography

MarcyJ · 12-15-2011, 02:58 PM

Hi Everyone...
I am going to be taking pictures of my daughter's Nutcracker Ballet and I want to get really clear action shots of the jumps and the turns. Minimal blurring preferred. The theatre will be dark and the stage lighting is very bright in the front but darker in the back. Not the best theatre around unfortunately, very old. I tried taking shots last weekend and they are blurry. Oh and I have a K10 camera using the 50-135mmf2.8 lens. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

JinDesu · 12-15-2011, 03:05 PM

Most simple motions like talking and walking are frozen by 1/30s. Most active motions like arm movements are frozen between 1/60 and 1/100. I believe you can catch jumping within 1/160s.

This is assuming you have most of the person in the frame - zoom in more and you need faster shutter speed.

slip · 12-15-2011, 05:33 PM

Here are some of the things I do in Volleyball but the same can be tried in any indoor action. The one thing that improved my shots is a monopod. At slower shutter speeds even with f 2.8 and SR keeping the camera steady enough to take even still pictures is a task.... so the monopod will take hand shake out of the equation.
With the K10 I try not to go above ISO 800 because your shots will have more "grain" giving the impression that the photos are not tack sharp.
The best time to take a shot, and it takes TONS of practice (for me, anyway), is to get the shot when.... lets say she is jumping (my daughter does ballet as well) then you have to catch the moment when she is at the point where she is in the air as far as she can go, just before she comes back down to the ground. I am not that good at photography to do this every time (my rejection rate is very high but do manage to get a few keepers)
if she is doing a spin, you likely won't get the body completely in focus, so try to take a photo of the point where her face is still, preferably looking at the camera or a nice side profile view.
I also go back and forth between using auto focus and manual focus..... with manual focus you have to pre-focus on a spot on the stage where you think she will be, keep the shutter on continuous and fire away (you can get 3 shots a second without blinking an eye in manual where in auto focus it likely won't fire as fast)
If you are comfortable with manual exposure set the correct exposure and leave it there. I am continually tweaking the settings (ISO and shutter speed) to try to get the best balance between motion freeze and having as low of ISO as I can go.
If you have a hand incident light meter it would help a lot as well.

here is what I am trying to say about catching the subject at the point of between jump and coming down

the ball is up in the air at that point so it can be captured with relatively slow shutter speed

I can't remember what the camera setting where but they were likely 1/60-1/80 sec ISO 800 F4.5 with a sigma 17-70 2.8 to 4.5 lens

hope some of this helps

good luck and please post some shots!

MarcyJ · 12-15-2011, 06:35 PM

Thank you both so much for the advice. This show ran last weekend and this weekend. I did manage to get a few shots from last weekend that I like but the majority of them were really blurry. I will post the pictures as soon as I figure out how.

slip · 12-15-2011, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by MarcyJ

Thank you both so much for the advice. This show ran last weekend and this weekend. I did manage to get a few shots from last weekend that I like but the majority of them were really blurry. I will post the pictures as soon as I figure out how.

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket
sign up and upload to it, then you can link the photo back to this forum

MarcyJ · 12-15-2011, 09:51 PM

I have a photobucket account. I will upload some tonight and link back here. Do you know how to secure the photos in your album to keep people from being able to download them?

MarcyJ · 12-15-2011, 10:24 PM

The first two images were taken at 400 f4.0 1/60
http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/81LSz6

http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/9T3807

This last one was taken at 400 f2.8 1/45
http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/56v8e4

I like flickr better since it will protect your photos from being downloaded. I couldn't get the URL to work correctly and show the pictures so you will have to click on each link above to view the pictures.
Thanks for the advice and help.

BobCool · 12-16-2011, 08:42 AM

Hi Marcy,

My daughter was in dance for several years before moving on, and I offer dance action photography to parents in my town, so I have a lot of advice to give...

Disclaimer: I don't own a Pentax SLR, I own a Nikon D700 - I hope your camera has ISO of up to 1600, or higher

Dance action photography is one of the most challenging environments to get great pictures, and honestly, equipment really does matter in this instance. Not sure if Pentax has a newer camera body that does higher ISO, but you might want to consider upgrading your body if you plan on attending more dance recitals/competitions. Based on what equipment you currently have, if you truly want to capture clear photos of your daughter in mid-air, you need to bump up your ISO and your shutter speed. A minimum shutter speed should be 1/250. I recommend cranking up your ISO to 1600.

Upping the ISO allows you to increase your shutter speed without getting dark photos.

What this means is that you must shoot in manual mode. Not as scary as it seems. Here's a checklist:

SS @ 1/250
Aperture at f/2.8 (is your lens a constant aperture lens?) or the lowest aperture it will allow
ISO to at least 1600, higher if possible
Use spot metering
beg/steal/borrow/buy a monopod and use it - helps greatly with camera shake
timing is everything - snap at the highest arc of the jump
Use a noise reduction program to minimize the grain from high ISOs - NeatImage and NoiseNinja both have free trials
If photos are still too dark because of the higher shutter speed, increase the exposure on the computer by using *insert favorite photo editor here*.

Here's what I've been able to get using these methods with my equipment:

Shutter speed: 1/500; f/4.0; ISO 5000

Good luck this weekend, and be sure and share some shots so others can learn from your success.

Regards,

Bob

wasser · 12-16-2011, 09:17 AM

Marcy, that second shot is lovely. Looks like you got good results for what is very challenging photography.

I just wanted to restate the idea expressed by slip. It's about capturing the moment of least motion. Whether it's at the peak of a jump or when the subject reverses direction, it's about anticipating and capturing the moment of least motion.

MarcyJ · 12-16-2011, 03:21 PM

Thank you all! Such great advice. (and great shots you've shared) I've taken notes, done some test shots around the house with my daughter and now for the show tonight. I'll post some of the results tomorrow. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

slip · 12-16-2011, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by BobCool

Hi Marcy,

My daughter was in dance for several years before moving on, and I offer dance action photography to parents in my town, so I have a lot of advice to give...

Disclaimer: I don't own a Pentax SLR, I own a Nikon D700 - I hope your camera has ISO of up to 1600, or higher

Dance action photography is one of the most challenging environments to get great pictures, and honestly, equipment really does matter in this instance. Not sure if Pentax has a newer camera body that does higher ISO, but you might want to consider upgrading your body if you plan on attending more dance recitals/competitions. Based on what equipment you currently have, if you truly want to capture clear photos of your daughter in mid-air, you need to bump up your ISO and your shutter speed. A minimum shutter speed should be 1/250. I recommend cranking up your ISO to 1600.

Upping the ISO allows you to increase your shutter speed without getting dark photos.

What this means is that you must shoot in manual mode. Not as scary as it seems. Here's a checklist:

SS @ 1/250
Aperture at f/2.8 (is your lens a constant aperture lens?) or the lowest aperture it will allow
ISO to at least 1600, higher if possible
Use spot metering
beg/steal/borrow/buy a monopod and use it - helps greatly with camera shake
timing is everything - snap at the highest arc of the jump
Use a noise reduction program to minimize the grain from high ISOs - NeatImage and NoiseNinja both have free trials
If photos are still too dark because of the higher shutter speed, increase the exposure on the computer by using *insert favorite photo editor here*.

Here's what I've been able to get using these methods with my equipment:

Shutter speed: 1/500; f/4.0; ISO 5000

Good luck this weekend, and be sure and share some shots so others can learn from your success.

Regards,

Bob

that shot is amazingly clear, wow! that is just as clear as my k10 at ISO 400. Maybe I can get a new k5... in about 5 years

wasser · 12-16-2011, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by slip

that shot is amazingly clear, wow! that is just as clear as my k10 at ISO 400. Maybe I can get a new k5... in about 5 years

Yeah, for ISO 5000 that is just stunning. It's also exactlly why I couldn't resist picking up the K5 on the Cyber Monday deal.

BTW, I'm upgrading from a Km.

MarcyJ · 12-17-2011, 01:47 AM

Here are the links to a few of the shots from tonight.

http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/Xh1W23
http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/BDZs7v
http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/486wYt
http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/07952S
http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/8719m4

slip · 12-17-2011, 08:59 AM

They turned out great! they are a little small for my old eyes but you looked like you nailed some

Did they turn out the way YOU wanted them?

thanks

MarcyJ · 12-17-2011, 03:48 PM

Yes and no. I was able to stop the action better but the grain is a hard compromise. The lighting on the stage is really poor. It's an old theatre and it's so bright at the front of the stage that the dancers are getting washed out and the rest of the stage needs to be lighted in editing making it very grainy. But for all that, I think there were some definite improvements and I caught some great shots here and there. Thanks to everyone here! I really appreciate all the help. An awesome learning experience!

12-15-2011, 02:58 PM	#1
MarcyJ New Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Coachella Valley, California Posts: 14	Help with settings for action dance photography Hi Everyone... I am going to be taking pictures of my daughter's Nutcracker Ballet and I want to get really clear action shots of the jumps and the turns. Minimal blurring preferred. The theatre will be dark and the stage lighting is very bright in the front but darker in the back. Not the best theatre around unfortunately, very old. I tried taking shots last weekend and they are blurry. Oh and I have a K10 camera using the 50-135mmf2.8 lens. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

12-16-2011, 08:42 AM	#8
BobCool New Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2	Hi Marcy, My daughter was in dance for several years before moving on, and I offer dance action photography to parents in my town, so I have a lot of advice to give... Disclaimer: I don't own a Pentax SLR, I own a Nikon D700 - I hope your camera has ISO of up to 1600, or higher Dance action photography is one of the most challenging environments to get great pictures, and honestly, equipment really does matter in this instance. Not sure if Pentax has a newer camera body that does higher ISO, but you might want to consider upgrading your body if you plan on attending more dance recitals/competitions. Based on what equipment you currently have, if you truly want to capture clear photos of your daughter in mid-air, you need to bump up your ISO and your shutter speed. A minimum shutter speed should be 1/250. I recommend cranking up your ISO to 1600. Upping the ISO allows you to increase your shutter speed without getting dark photos. What this means is that you must shoot in manual mode. Not as scary as it seems. Here's a checklist: SS @ 1/250 Aperture at f/2.8 (is your lens a constant aperture lens?) or the lowest aperture it will allow ISO to at least 1600, higher if possible Use spot metering beg/steal/borrow/buy a monopod and use it - helps greatly with camera shake timing is everything - snap at the highest arc of the jump Use a noise reduction program to minimize the grain from high ISOs - NeatImage and NoiseNinja both have free trials If photos are still too dark because of the higher shutter speed, increase the exposure on the computer by using insert favorite photo editor here. Here's what I've been able to get using these methods with my equipment: Shutter speed: 1/500; f/4.0; ISO 5000 Good luck this weekend, and be sure and share some shots so others can learn from your success. Regards, Bob

12-16-2011, 07:18 PM	#11
slip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 2 hours north of toronto ontario canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,535	Originally posted by BobCool Hi Marcy, My daughter was in dance for several years before moving on, and I offer dance action photography to parents in my town, so I have a lot of advice to give... Disclaimer: I don't own a Pentax SLR, I own a Nikon D700 - I hope your camera has ISO of up to 1600, or higher Dance action photography is one of the most challenging environments to get great pictures, and honestly, equipment really does matter in this instance. Not sure if Pentax has a newer camera body that does higher ISO, but you might want to consider upgrading your body if you plan on attending more dance recitals/competitions. Based on what equipment you currently have, if you truly want to capture clear photos of your daughter in mid-air, you need to bump up your ISO and your shutter speed. A minimum shutter speed should be 1/250. I recommend cranking up your ISO to 1600. Upping the ISO allows you to increase your shutter speed without getting dark photos. What this means is that you must shoot in manual mode. Not as scary as it seems. Here's a checklist: SS @ 1/250 Aperture at f/2.8 (is your lens a constant aperture lens?) or the lowest aperture it will allow ISO to at least 1600, higher if possible Use spot metering beg/steal/borrow/buy a monopod and use it - helps greatly with camera shake timing is everything - snap at the highest arc of the jump Use a noise reduction program to minimize the grain from high ISOs - NeatImage and NoiseNinja both have free trials If photos are still too dark because of the higher shutter speed, increase the exposure on the computer by using insert favorite photo editor here. Here's what I've been able to get using these methods with my equipment: Shutter speed: 1/500; f/4.0; ISO 5000 Good luck this weekend, and be sure and share some shots so others can learn from your success. Regards, Bob that shot is amazingly clear, wow! that is just as clear as my k10 at ISO 400. Maybe I can get a new k5... in about 5 years

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12-15-2011, 03:05 PM	#2
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Most simple motions like talking and walking are frozen by 1/30s. Most active motions like arm movements are frozen between 1/60 and 1/100. I believe you can catch jumping within 1/160s. This is assuming you have most of the person in the frame - zoom in more and you need faster shutter speed.

12-15-2011, 05:33 PM	#3
slip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 2 hours north of toronto ontario canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,535	Here are some of the things I do in Volleyball but the same can be tried in any indoor action. The one thing that improved my shots is a monopod. At slower shutter speeds even with f 2.8 and SR keeping the camera steady enough to take even still pictures is a task.... so the monopod will take hand shake out of the equation. With the K10 I try not to go above ISO 800 because your shots will have more "grain" giving the impression that the photos are not tack sharp. The best time to take a shot, and it takes TONS of practice (for me, anyway), is to get the shot when.... lets say she is jumping (my daughter does ballet as well) then you have to catch the moment when she is at the point where she is in the air as far as she can go, just before she comes back down to the ground. I am not that good at photography to do this every time (my rejection rate is very high but do manage to get a few keepers) if she is doing a spin, you likely won't get the body completely in focus, so try to take a photo of the point where her face is still, preferably looking at the camera or a nice side profile view. I also go back and forth between using auto focus and manual focus..... with manual focus you have to pre-focus on a spot on the stage where you think she will be, keep the shutter on continuous and fire away (you can get 3 shots a second without blinking an eye in manual where in auto focus it likely won't fire as fast) If you are comfortable with manual exposure set the correct exposure and leave it there. I am continually tweaking the settings (ISO and shutter speed) to try to get the best balance between motion freeze and having as low of ISO as I can go. If you have a hand incident light meter it would help a lot as well. here is what I am trying to say about catching the subject at the point of between jump and coming down the ball is up in the air at that point so it can be captured with relatively slow shutter speed I can't remember what the camera setting where but they were likely 1/60-1/80 sec ISO 800 F4.5 with a sigma 17-70 2.8 to 4.5 lens hope some of this helps good luck and please post some shots!

12-15-2011, 06:35 PM	#4
MarcyJ New Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Coachella Valley, California Posts: 14 Original Poster	Thank you both so much for the advice. This show ran last weekend and this weekend. I did manage to get a few shots from last weekend that I like but the majority of them were really blurry. I will post the pictures as soon as I figure out how.

12-15-2011, 07:54 PM	#5
slip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 2 hours north of toronto ontario canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,535	Originally posted by MarcyJ Thank you both so much for the advice. This show ran last weekend and this weekend. I did manage to get a few shots from last weekend that I like but the majority of them were really blurry. I will post the pictures as soon as I figure out how. Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket sign up and upload to it, then you can link the photo back to this forum

12-15-2011, 09:51 PM	#6
MarcyJ New Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Coachella Valley, California Posts: 14 Original Poster	I have a photobucket account. I will upload some tonight and link back here. Do you know how to secure the photos in your album to keep people from being able to download them?

12-15-2011, 10:24 PM	#7
MarcyJ New Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Coachella Valley, California Posts: 14 Original Poster	The first two images were taken at 400 f4.0 1/60 http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/81LSz6 http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/9T3807 This last one was taken at 400 f2.8 1/45 http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/56v8e4 I like flickr better since it will protect your photos from being downloaded. I couldn't get the URL to work correctly and show the pictures so you will have to click on each link above to view the pictures. Thanks for the advice and help.

12-16-2011, 09:17 AM	#9
wasser Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: northern ca Photos: Gallery Posts: 427	Marcy, that second shot is lovely. Looks like you got good results for what is very challenging photography. I just wanted to restate the idea expressed by slip. It's about capturing the moment of least motion. Whether it's at the peak of a jump or when the subject reverses direction, it's about anticipating and capturing the moment of least motion.

12-16-2011, 03:21 PM	#10
MarcyJ New Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Coachella Valley, California Posts: 14 Original Poster	Thank you all! Such great advice. (and great shots you've shared) I've taken notes, done some test shots around the house with my daughter and now for the show tonight. I'll post some of the results tomorrow. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

12-16-2011, 09:57 PM	#12
wasser Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: northern ca Photos: Gallery Posts: 427	Originally posted by slip that shot is amazingly clear, wow! that is just as clear as my k10 at ISO 400. Maybe I can get a new k5... in about 5 years Yeah, for ISO 5000 that is just stunning. It's also exactlly why I couldn't resist picking up the K5 on the Cyber Monday deal. BTW, I'm upgrading from a Km.

12-17-2011, 01:47 AM	#13
MarcyJ New Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Coachella Valley, California Posts: 14 Original Poster	Here are the links to a few of the shots from tonight. http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/Xh1W23 http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/BDZs7v http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/486wYt http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/07952S http://flickr.com/gp/marcyjohnsphotography/8719m4

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12-17-2011, 08:59 AM	#14
slip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 2 hours north of toronto ontario canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,535	They turned out great! they are a little small for my old eyes but you looked like you nailed some Did they turn out the way YOU wanted them? thanks

12-17-2011, 03:48 PM	#15
MarcyJ New Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Coachella Valley, California Posts: 14 Original Poster	Yes and no. I was able to stop the action better but the grain is a hard compromise. The lighting on the stage is really poor. It's an old theatre and it's so bright at the front of the stage that the dancers are getting washed out and the rest of the stage needs to be lighted in editing making it very grainy. But for all that, I think there were some definite improvements and I caught some great shots here and there. Thanks to everyone here! I really appreciate all the help. An awesome learning experience!