Lightroom do not create XMP files

Laprou · 03-05-2013, 03:59 AM

Hi everyone,

I found a lot of threads on "lightroom creating XMP files, how disable it?", but my problem is the opposite : Lightroom don't want to save these files

I work with DNG files, an tried :

-selected "Automatically Write Changes Into XMP" in catalog parameters
-manually save metadata (Ctrl+S, and even with "Metadata > Save Metadata To File(s)")

And... no résults, I didn't find any XMP files in the same file as my DNGs...

I tried with TIFF and JPEG, and no XMP, and if I open these pictures with photoshop or windows viewer, it does not display the picture modification...

If you have any Idea, it'll be welcome!

Thanks!

Anvh · 03-05-2013, 05:18 AM

XMP is a side car for RAW files, however DNG standard allows the XMP to be embedded inside the file so you don't have a separate XMP file anymore with DNG.
Well actually you've a separate XMP file but it's inside the DNG.

**Kerrowdown** · 03-05-2013, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Anvh

XMP is a side car for RAW files, however DNG standard allows the XMP to be embedded inside the file so you don't have a separate XMP file anymore with DNG.
Well actually you've a separate XMP file but it's inside the DNG.

+1, yep it's exactly what he said and very well put if I may say so.

Laprou · 03-05-2013, 08:42 AM

Thanks

Indeed, I just tried, and it does work with DNGs, but the modifications are not saved with TIFFs and JPEGs, neither inside the file, nor in XMP ; Not very usefull but sometimes, I just do a very minor change on the picture, but it needs to be exported again from the DNG. Any clue on that?

**jatrax** · 03-05-2013, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by Laprou

Thanks

Indeed, I just tried, and it does work with DNGs, but the modifications are not saved with TIFFs and JPEGs, neither inside the file, nor in XMP ; Not very usefull but sometimes, I just do a very minor change on the picture, but it needs to be exported again from the DNG. Any clue on that?

Lightroom saves XMP files with RAW files like NEF and PEF. With DNG that information is saved inside the DNG. If you have 'save XMP data automatically' turned on then any change is saved to the DNG, or XMP. If you have 'save XMP data' turned off then you must specifically write it out. Otherwise it is only saved in the Lightroom catalog.

There is no connection between a DNG and a TIFF or jpeg after it is exported. Consider these files as 'prints', you make all your changes to the negative (DNG) and when you are done you 'print' a TIFF or a jpeg. If you then make another change to the DNG then you must 'print' another jpeg.

Now if you have imported the TIFF back into Lightroom as a new file then you can work on it again with a somewhat limited tool set. But it has no relationship to the original DNG after you export, it is a completely new file.

Laprou · 03-05-2013, 09:19 AM

Got it for the DNG, but when the JPEG is created, there is no way to modify it (after it has been imported again), and save it directly, without making a new export from the DNG?

Anvh · 03-05-2013, 09:28 AM

Photoshop Lightroom

Quote:

File information is stored using the Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) standard. XMP is built on XML. In the case of camera raw files that have a proprietary file format, XMP isn’t written into the original files. To avoid file corruption, XMP metadata is stored in a separate file called a sidecar file. For all other file formats supported by Lightroom (JPEG, TIFF, PSD, and DNG), XMP metadata is written into the files in the location specified for that data. XMP facilitates the exchange of metadata between Adobe applications and across publishing workflows. For example, you can save metadata from one file as a template, and then import the metadata into other files.

**jatrax** · 03-05-2013, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Laprou

Got it for the DNG, but when the JPEG is created, there is no way to modify it (after it has been imported again), and save it directly, without making a new export from the DNG?

Yes there is. But it has no longer any relationship to the original once you have exported and then imported the new file. it is a completely new file. You can change some things, but not everything that you could do to a RAW file if I remember right. I work with DNG and TIFFs rarely a jpeg so my memory may be faulty here. But editing a jpeg over and over again is not recommended as the compression will eventually start to reduce image quality. How serious this is has been debated and as I said I rarely work with jpegs so I've no personal experience.

My workflow is do everything to the DNG. When I am done I export a jpeg for uploading. If I need to make a change later I go back to the original DNG not to the jpeg. I consider jpegs to be the same as a 'print' once exported it is never changed. If you print to paper and want to make a change you do not change the paper print do you? No, you go back and make your change and re-print. Jpegs are treated the same way in my workflow.

This is how I do it, not saying it is the only way or the best way, just what works for me. YMMV.

**jatrax** · 03-05-2013, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Anvh

Photoshop Lightroom
File information is stored using the Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) standard. XMP is built on XML. In the case of camera raw files that have a proprietary file format, XMP isn’t written into the original files. To avoid file corruption, XMP metadata is stored in a separate file called a sidecar file. For all other file formats supported by Lightroom (JPEG, TIFF, PSD, and DNG), XMP metadata is written into the files in the location specified for that data. XMP facilitates the exchange of metadata between Adobe applications and across publishing workflows. For example, you can save metadata from one file as a template, and then import the metadata into other files.

Funny I was looking for that exact quote and could not find it. That is the definitive explanation.

Laprou · 03-05-2013, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Anvh

For all other file formats supported by Lightroom (JPEG, TIFF, PSD, and DNG), XMP metadata is written into the files in the location specified for that data

It works on DNG, I tried it, it's OK (I can read the changes with photoshop for example) but not with JPEGs and TIFFs... It would work the same way, or did I misunderstood something?

Laprou · 03-05-2013, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by jatrax

Yes there is. But it has no longer any relationship to the original once you have exported and then imported the new file. it is a completely new file. You can change some things, but not everything that you could do to a RAW file if I remember right. I work with DNG and TIFFs rarely a jpeg so my memory may be faulty here. But editing a jpeg over and over again is not recommended as the compression will eventually start to reduce image quality. How serious this is has been debated and as I said I rarely work with jpegs so I've no personal experience.

Yes, I work the same way, but i'm just talking about minor and quick modification, I almost never do that, but I just want to know why it does not work (when I don't understand something, I can be stubborn ;-) )

**jatrax** · 03-05-2013, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Laprou

Yes, I work the same way, but i'm just talking about minor and quick modification, I almost never do that, but I just want to know why it does not work (when I don't understand something, I can be stubborn ;-) )

No problem I get the same way sometimes.

Maybe if you give me an example of what you want to change I can explain better. Short answer is that you should be able to modify a jpeg in LR if you want to. So tell me what exactly is not working.

Laprou · 03-05-2013, 10:04 AM

OK, so in a very simple way :

You have a JPEG
You work on it
You want to view it with windows viewer
Can you save your modification by the "save metadata" way?

(Because with that way, it does no work)

**jatrax** · 03-07-2013, 10:42 AM

Yes it does work. But it only saves the metadata not any editing changes you make. Metadata defined as title, description, keywords and so on. It does not save any editing of the actual image back to the jpeg. It only saves those edits to the LR catalog. If you want your edits to be seen in another viewer you must export the jpeg again.

Really if you are working with RAW or DNG files you should not be editing the jpegs, If you need to make a change go back to the DNG and make your change and then re-export. If you really want to actually edit the jpeg then use another program such Photoshop or GIMP. These are pixel editors, Lightroom is a non-destructive editor. Nothing gets written to the original file, that is by design. No edits are written to the DNG either, only the script instructions on how to render the file when you export. This is by design so that nothing you can do can affect the original.

I think part of the confusion early in this thread is I had not made a clear distinction between metadata and edits. Metadata (title, keywords, etc) is written out to the file whether it is jpeg or DNG. But EDITS are not written out in any way that would alter the original. With DNG those edits are included in the file but they do not alter the original. In other RAW formats those edits are written to the XMP sidecar file. With Jpeg and TIFF they are not written at all because there is no way to non-destructively do that. But the edits are in the Lightroom catalog and are used when the file is exported again.

Anvh · 03-07-2013, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by jatrax

I think part of the confusion early in this thread is I had not made a clear distinction between metadata and edits. Metadata (title, keywords, etc) is written out to the file whether it is jpeg or DNG. But EDITS are not written out in any way that would alter the original. With DNG those edits are included in the file but they do not alter the original. In other RAW formats those edits are written to the XMP sidecar file. With Jpeg and TIFF they are not written at all because there is no way to non-destructively do that. But the edits are in the Lightroom catalog and are used when the file is exported again.

Your completely right, i actually missed that point as well

03-05-2013, 03:59 AM	#1
Laprou New Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Brussels Posts: 13	Lightroom do not create XMP files Hi everyone, I found a lot of threads on "lightroom creating XMP files, how disable it?", but my problem is the opposite : Lightroom don't want to save these files I work with DNG files, an tried : -selected "Automatically Write Changes Into XMP" in catalog parameters -manually save metadata (Ctrl+S, and even with "Metadata > Save Metadata To File(s)") And... no résults, I didn't find any XMP files in the same file as my DNGs... I tried with TIFF and JPEG, and no XMP, and if I open these pictures with photoshop or windows viewer, it does not display the picture modification... If you have any Idea, it'll be welcome! Thanks!

03-05-2013, 05:18 AM	#2
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	XMP is a side car for RAW files, however DNG standard allows the XMP to be embedded inside the file so you don't have a separate XMP file anymore with DNG. Well actually you've a separate XMP file but it's inside the DNG. Last edited by Anvh; 03-05-2013 at 05:30 AM.

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03-05-2013, 07:11 AM	#3
Kerrowdown PEG Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highlands of Scotland... "Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand" - William Blake Photos: Gallery Posts: 57,819	Originally posted by Anvh XMP is a side car for RAW files, however DNG standard allows the XMP to be embedded inside the file so you don't have a separate XMP file anymore with DNG. Well actually you've a separate XMP file but it's inside the DNG. +1, yep it's exactly what he said and very well put if I may say so.

03-05-2013, 08:42 AM	#4
Laprou New Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Brussels Posts: 13 Original Poster	Thanks Indeed, I just tried, and it does work with DNGs, but the modifications are not saved with TIFFs and JPEGs, neither inside the file, nor in XMP ; Not very usefull but sometimes, I just do a very minor change on the picture, but it needs to be exported again from the DNG. Any clue on that?

03-05-2013, 08:54 AM	#5
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by Laprou Thanks Indeed, I just tried, and it does work with DNGs, but the modifications are not saved with TIFFs and JPEGs, neither inside the file, nor in XMP ; Not very usefull but sometimes, I just do a very minor change on the picture, but it needs to be exported again from the DNG. Any clue on that? Lightroom saves XMP files with RAW files like NEF and PEF. With DNG that information is saved inside the DNG. If you have 'save XMP data automatically' turned on then any change is saved to the DNG, or XMP. If you have 'save XMP data' turned off then you must specifically write it out. Otherwise it is only saved in the Lightroom catalog. There is no connection between a DNG and a TIFF or jpeg after it is exported. Consider these files as 'prints', you make all your changes to the negative (DNG) and when you are done you 'print' a TIFF or a jpeg. If you then make another change to the DNG then you must 'print' another jpeg. Now if you have imported the TIFF back into Lightroom as a new file then you can work on it again with a somewhat limited tool set. But it has no relationship to the original DNG after you export, it is a completely new file.

03-05-2013, 09:19 AM	#6
Laprou New Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Brussels Posts: 13 Original Poster	Got it for the DNG, but when the JPEG is created, there is no way to modify it (after it has been imported again), and save it directly, without making a new export from the DNG?

03-05-2013, 09:28 AM	#7
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Photoshop Lightroom Quote: File information is stored using the Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) standard. XMP is built on XML. In the case of camera raw files that have a proprietary file format, XMP isn’t written into the original files. To avoid file corruption, XMP metadata is stored in a separate file called a sidecar file. For all other file formats supported by Lightroom (JPEG, TIFF, PSD, and DNG), XMP metadata is written into the files in the location specified for that data. XMP facilitates the exchange of metadata between Adobe applications and across publishing workflows. For example, you can save metadata from one file as a template, and then import the metadata into other files.

03-05-2013, 09:44 AM	#8
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by Laprou Got it for the DNG, but when the JPEG is created, there is no way to modify it (after it has been imported again), and save it directly, without making a new export from the DNG? Yes there is. But it has no longer any relationship to the original once you have exported and then imported the new file. it is a completely new file. You can change some things, but not everything that you could do to a RAW file if I remember right. I work with DNG and TIFFs rarely a jpeg so my memory may be faulty here. But editing a jpeg over and over again is not recommended as the compression will eventually start to reduce image quality. How serious this is has been debated and as I said I rarely work with jpegs so I've no personal experience. My workflow is do everything to the DNG. When I am done I export a jpeg for uploading. If I need to make a change later I go back to the original DNG not to the jpeg. I consider jpegs to be the same as a 'print' once exported it is never changed. If you print to paper and want to make a change you do not change the paper print do you? No, you go back and make your change and re-print. Jpegs are treated the same way in my workflow. This is how I do it, not saying it is the only way or the best way, just what works for me. YMMV.

03-05-2013, 09:47 AM	#9
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by Anvh Photoshop Lightroom File information is stored using the Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) standard. XMP is built on XML. In the case of camera raw files that have a proprietary file format, XMP isn’t written into the original files. To avoid file corruption, XMP metadata is stored in a separate file called a sidecar file. For all other file formats supported by Lightroom (JPEG, TIFF, PSD, and DNG), XMP metadata is written into the files in the location specified for that data. XMP facilitates the exchange of metadata between Adobe applications and across publishing workflows. For example, you can save metadata from one file as a template, and then import the metadata into other files. Funny I was looking for that exact quote and could not find it. That is the definitive explanation.

03-05-2013, 09:51 AM	#10
Laprou New Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Brussels Posts: 13 Original Poster	Originally posted by Anvh For all other file formats supported by Lightroom (JPEG, TIFF, PSD, and DNG), XMP metadata is written into the files in the location specified for that data It works on DNG, I tried it, it's OK (I can read the changes with photoshop for example) but not with JPEGs and TIFFs... It would work the same way, or did I misunderstood something?

03-05-2013, 09:56 AM	#11
Laprou New Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Brussels Posts: 13 Original Poster	Originally posted by jatrax Yes there is. But it has no longer any relationship to the original once you have exported and then imported the new file. it is a completely new file. You can change some things, but not everything that you could do to a RAW file if I remember right. I work with DNG and TIFFs rarely a jpeg so my memory may be faulty here. But editing a jpeg over and over again is not recommended as the compression will eventually start to reduce image quality. How serious this is has been debated and as I said I rarely work with jpegs so I've no personal experience. Yes, I work the same way, but i'm just talking about minor and quick modification, I almost never do that, but I just want to know why it does not work (when I don't understand something, I can be stubborn ;-) )

03-05-2013, 09:59 AM	#12
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by Laprou Yes, I work the same way, but i'm just talking about minor and quick modification, I almost never do that, but I just want to know why it does not work (when I don't understand something, I can be stubborn ;-) ) No problem I get the same way sometimes. Maybe if you give me an example of what you want to change I can explain better. Short answer is that you should be able to modify a jpeg in LR if you want to. So tell me what exactly is not working.

03-05-2013, 10:04 AM	#13
Laprou New Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Brussels Posts: 13 Original Poster	OK, so in a very simple way : You have a JPEG You work on it You want to view it with windows viewer Can you save your modification by the "save metadata" way? (Because with that way, it does no work)

03-07-2013, 10:42 AM	#14
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Yes it does work. But it only saves the metadata not any editing changes you make. Metadata defined as title, description, keywords and so on. It does not save any editing of the actual image back to the jpeg. It only saves those edits to the LR catalog. If you want your edits to be seen in another viewer you must export the jpeg again. Really if you are working with RAW or DNG files you should not be editing the jpegs, If you need to make a change go back to the DNG and make your change and then re-export. If you really want to actually edit the jpeg then use another program such Photoshop or GIMP. These are pixel editors, Lightroom is a non-destructive editor. Nothing gets written to the original file, that is by design. No edits are written to the DNG either, only the script instructions on how to render the file when you export. This is by design so that nothing you can do can affect the original. I think part of the confusion early in this thread is I had not made a clear distinction between metadata and edits. Metadata (title, keywords, etc) is written out to the file whether it is jpeg or DNG. But EDITS are not written out in any way that would alter the original. With DNG those edits are included in the file but they do not alter the original. In other RAW formats those edits are written to the XMP sidecar file. With Jpeg and TIFF they are not written at all because there is no way to non-destructively do that. But the edits are in the Lightroom catalog and are used when the file is exported again.

03-07-2013, 11:19 AM	#15
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by jatrax I think part of the confusion early in this thread is I had not made a clear distinction between metadata and edits. Metadata (title, keywords, etc) is written out to the file whether it is jpeg or DNG. But EDITS are not written out in any way that would alter the original. With DNG those edits are included in the file but they do not alter the original. In other RAW formats those edits are written to the XMP sidecar file. With Jpeg and TIFF they are not written at all because there is no way to non-destructively do that. But the edits are in the Lightroom catalog and are used when the file is exported again. Your completely right, i actually missed that point as well