Single RAW to HDR convertor functionality question

QCdude · 09-10-2013, 08:01 AM

Hello,

my camera is K-30 and first of all I want to tell that I'm not really into HDR, but I like to use this kind of functionality (single RAW -> HDR) from time to time which is present in SilkyPix v.5+ Pro, etc commercial versions. You won't find it in the one which is being shipped with Pentax camera. In the v.5 there is a kind of ruler named HDR allowing you to quickly adjust the amount of this effect from 0% ... to 100%. Normally I'm staying under 25% which helps to recover underexposed shots, improve shadow details, clarity, etc not making shadow noises and side effects. My point is to have my workflow as fast and efficient as possible and SP v5 seem to be a good tool in this matter. But some reason it doesn't deliver same colors (they seem to be dark and pale, and some of my shots even display haze in this program which is absolutely disappointing) as the SP v3 does - - the one which is shipped on the camera CD. I have succeeded to fix the mentioned problems playing with v.5's adjustments, tone curves, etc, but it does take much more time which finally made me to look for another convertor. Here I would like to ask what is possible to do to make SP v.5 delivering correct colors and clear images by default?

Ok, I also gave a try to the latest CaptureOne 7 and seem to like it as this convertor already has K-30 support which delivers correct natural looking colors by default and no haze. But what about the 'HDR' feature? Well, I have found some information about C1's LCC which allows to have similar results:
Lens tool: The secret HDR tool
Editing photos (exposure)
https://captureintegration.com/hdr-via-lcc/
I have yet to try/play with all this to understand do I like it or not.

My questions are
- how much do you guys use this or similar functionality in your RAW workflow?
- what is the other possible choise of tools which would enable me to adjust and convert my RAWs as fast as possible delivering correct K-30 colors by default? Well, I would accept even Sony-like colors

which I get used and liked being Sony SLT a35 user, but I also like and need this 'HDR' feature. I've heard that Adobe LR has some kind of raw->HDR plugin, can anybody comment on it?

You experience, opinions and any kind of related info is appreciated.

tuco · 09-10-2013, 08:25 AM

A single exposure has the DR that the sensor will capture. If you want more DR than that, you need to exposure bracket and combine the images either by hand blending or via HDR software. So I take it you want the fantasy "look" of extreme HDR images from a single exposure?

Na Horuk · 09-10-2013, 08:44 AM

Usually you can achieve the pseudo-hdr by adjusting curves or using features like "recovery" and "fill light" (these are old Lightroom terms; different software calls it different things).
You can also find some software presets that do most of this for you automatically, depending on the software you use. You can find these online.

QCdude · 09-10-2013, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by tuco

A single exposure has the DR that the sensor will capture. If you want more DR than that, you need to exposure bracket and combine the images either by hand blending or via HDR software. So I take it you want the fantasy "look" of extreme HDR images from a single exposure?

wrong. I don't need that fantasy HDR look, I said I'm not really into HDR thing.
So for me k-30 sensor captures enough DR to be able to improve an underexposed shot shadows and highlight details during RAW post processing - this is what I need in my workflow. For this I don't need HDR specific software, I'm too busy and impatient to spend my time on it, so something like SilkyPix HDR feature would be an ideal option for me. But I've already explained what is my problem with SP.
The point of this tread to share similar experience, to find out what are the other options in this matter, etc.

tuco · 09-10-2013, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by QCdude

wrong. I don't need that fantasy HDR look, I said I'm not really into HDR thing.

Well, you are not going to get any higher dynamic range than what the camera captures in a single frame without exposure bracketing. So all the dynamic range it has is there and you just have to adjust it out via software plugins that do high dynamic contrast which results in that fantasy HDR look or learn to edit your photos to selectively pull the contrast curve in areas of the photo to make it look more natural.

rawr · 09-10-2013, 09:08 AM

DxO Optics Pro can do single-shot HDR from RAWs (and JPG even) and the results can be usable for a variety of purposes. It comes with three presets for HDR (Single Shot) - 'Artistic', 'Realistic' and 'Slight'.

Presets available | www.dxo.com

These presets fall under the 'Customisation' section of the program. But by default, when it opens a RAW (or a folder of RAWs), DxO will already start to apply it's in-built formulas to do what is needed to make the image look OK, including exposure, shadows and highlights, noise reduction, optical corrections etc. Often it does a decent job straight up.

QCdude · 09-10-2013, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Na Horuk

Usually you can achieve the pseudo-hdr by adjusting curves or using features like "recovery" and "fill light" (these are old Lightroom terms; different software calls it different things).
You can also find some software presets that do most of this for you automatically, depending on the software you use. You can find these online.

Thanks, but I'm not sure how to name these presets to be able to google them, so if you already have some URLs to share - this would be appreciated.

p.s. I know about the curves, but it is time consuming to do them, especially when you have about ~300...500 shots to process.

tuco · 09-10-2013, 09:18 AM

If a camera can capture, say, 10 usable stops of light and another camera can capture say 12 stops. We can say the latter camera has higher dynamic range. But for any given camera that you want HDR (high dynamic range - higher than it can capture) you need another exposure. I guess it is multiple meaning of HDR here. I guess you mean HDR as in a well processed, maximized single frame image which is contrary to what I take HDR to mean.

QCdude · 09-10-2013, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by tuco

If a camera can capture, say, 10 usable stops of light and another camera can capture say 12 stops. We can say the latter camera has higher dynamic range. But for any given camera that you want HDR (high dynamic range - higher than it can capture) you need another exposure. I guess it is multiple meaning of HDR here.

yeah, 'HDR' is a kind of abused term in the photography

Still, lets say to do 0, -1, +1EV out of same single RAW shot is doable, and I'm sure those so-called "HDR" features are employing this fact which is nice addition to a convertor's functionality and enables me to make quick improvements to a particular image.

Originally posted by tuco

I guess you mean HDR as in a well processed, maximized single frame image which is contrary to what I take HDR to mean.

correct.
Still I don't use it on a regular basis, say I don't want to maximize this kind of effect in my every shot, but only for specific images which were shot in difficult light conditions - this is when this feature comes handy when it is present in a convertor.

tuco · 09-10-2013, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by QCdude

yeah, 'HDR' is a kind of abused term in the photography

Just like the term bokeh. It is all too often used to mean shallow depth of field. But it is a characteristic of a any given lens on how it renders the out of focus areas - eg smooth, creamy, harsh, etc.

pinholecam · 09-10-2013, 10:27 PM

Lightroom does have a selective brush that can tweak exposure.
Otherwise, Nik efex HDR which is available as a plugin does 1 raw hdr.
However it converts to Tiff to do this.

If you need more control, you will need to generate 3 exposures from the 1 and do it separately.

QCdude · 09-11-2013, 07:28 AM

ok, guys,
yesterday evening I had some time to play with C1 v.7 and it looks like 'Highlights' and 'Shadows' rulers do the job. It seem to be even more functional that just a single 'HDR' ruler of SilkyPix v.5 .

Btw, C1 v.7 of latest release supports K-30 and all the new and older models of Pentax DSLR cameras, and for me it seem to deliver correct colors straight up. I will try to stick with C1 for a while at least for trial time. I will also give a try to LR5 maybe.

timb64 · 09-11-2013, 03:39 PM

QCdude,I recently went through the same process as you,comparing LR5 and C1 and ended up plumping for C1.Whilst it didn't have as good repair/healing tools as LR I felt the overall IQ was better especially when you play with the Highlights/shadows and Clarity sliders.It also has powerful local adjustment tools for altering colour and exposure to specific areas.

QCdude · 09-12-2013, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by timb64

QCdude,I recently went through the same process as you,comparing LR5 and C1 and ended up plumping for C1.Whilst it didn't have as good repair/healing tools as LR I felt the overall IQ was better especially when you play with the Highlights/shadows and Clarity sliders.It also has powerful local adjustment tools for altering colour and exposure to specific areas.

Hi timb64,

thanks for update. Yeah, I have feeling like C1 v7 has best functionality and IQ for now, as well as micro contrast. Try to make use masks as well.
Here is good help/tutorial: Capture One Pro 7 help | Phase One

What kind of repair/healing do you do to your images?

**newmikey** · 09-12-2013, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by QCdude

But some reason it doesn't deliver same colors (they seem to be dark and pale, and some of my shots even display haze in this program which is absolutely disappointing)

What you are doing is not really HDR but tonemapping of a single RAW (which I really love if used correctly). The resulting pale colors and sometimes haze and flat contrast are a direct result of the particular tonemapping operator the software uses, combined with the tendency of tonemapping to increase local micro-contrast at the expense of overall contrast.

The easiest and best (maybe even only) fix for this is an extra processing step where you set the levels to eliminate the unused areas on the left and right of the histogram (pulling the "handles" in slightly), use of the curve tool to apply an S-shaped contrast curve and finally using the unsharp mask with a very large radius and very low amount to improve overall contrast and get rid of any haze.

If you really want the camera's colors, you'll need to do regular raw processing with a proper color profile but this will give a radically different outcome than pseudo-HDR.

09-10-2013, 08:01 AM	#1
QCdude Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 87	Single RAW to HDR convertor functionality question Hello, my camera is K-30 and first of all I want to tell that I'm not really into HDR, but I like to use this kind of functionality (single RAW -> HDR) from time to time which is present in SilkyPix v.5+ Pro, etc commercial versions. You won't find it in the one which is being shipped with Pentax camera. In the v.5 there is a kind of ruler named HDR allowing you to quickly adjust the amount of this effect from 0% ... to 100%. Normally I'm staying under 25% which helps to recover underexposed shots, improve shadow details, clarity, etc not making shadow noises and side effects. My point is to have my workflow as fast and efficient as possible and SP v5 seem to be a good tool in this matter. But some reason it doesn't deliver same colors (they seem to be dark and pale, and some of my shots even display haze in this program which is absolutely disappointing) as the SP v3 does - - the one which is shipped on the camera CD. I have succeeded to fix the mentioned problems playing with v.5's adjustments, tone curves, etc, but it does take much more time which finally made me to look for another convertor. Here I would like to ask what is possible to do to make SP v.5 delivering correct colors and clear images by default? Ok, I also gave a try to the latest CaptureOne 7 and seem to like it as this convertor already has K-30 support which delivers correct natural looking colors by default and no haze. But what about the 'HDR' feature? Well, I have found some information about C1's LCC which allows to have similar results: Lens tool: The secret HDR tool Editing photos (exposure) https://captureintegration.com/hdr-via-lcc/ I have yet to try/play with all this to understand do I like it or not. My questions are - how much do you guys use this or similar functionality in your RAW workflow? - what is the other possible choise of tools which would enable me to adjust and convert my RAWs as fast as possible delivering correct K-30 colors by default? Well, I would accept even Sony-like colors which I get used and liked being Sony SLT a35 user, but I also like and need this 'HDR' feature. I've heard that Adobe LR has some kind of raw->HDR plugin, can anybody comment on it? You experience, opinions and any kind of related info is appreciated.

09-10-2013, 09:26 AM	#9
QCdude Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 87 Original Poster	Originally posted by tuco If a camera can capture, say, 10 usable stops of light and another camera can capture say 12 stops. We can say the latter camera has higher dynamic range. But for any given camera that you want HDR (high dynamic range - higher than it can capture) you need another exposure. I guess it is multiple meaning of HDR here. yeah, 'HDR' is a kind of abused term in the photography Still, lets say to do 0, -1, +1EV out of same single RAW shot is doable, and I'm sure those so-called "HDR" features are employing this fact which is nice addition to a convertor's functionality and enables me to make quick improvements to a particular image. Originally posted by tuco I guess you mean HDR as in a well processed, maximized single frame image which is contrary to what I take HDR to mean. correct. Still I don't use it on a regular basis, say I don't want to maximize this kind of effect in my every shot, but only for specific images which were shot in difficult light conditions - this is when this feature comes handy when it is present in a convertor. Last edited by QCdude; 09-10-2013 at 09:31 AM.

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09-10-2013, 08:25 AM	#2
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	A single exposure has the DR that the sensor will capture. If you want more DR than that, you need to exposure bracket and combine the images either by hand blending or via HDR software. So I take it you want the fantasy "look" of extreme HDR images from a single exposure?

09-10-2013, 08:44 AM	#3
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	Usually you can achieve the pseudo-hdr by adjusting curves or using features like "recovery" and "fill light" (these are old Lightroom terms; different software calls it different things). You can also find some software presets that do most of this for you automatically, depending on the software you use. You can find these online.

09-10-2013, 08:44 AM	#4
QCdude Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 87 Original Poster	Originally posted by tuco A single exposure has the DR that the sensor will capture. If you want more DR than that, you need to exposure bracket and combine the images either by hand blending or via HDR software. So I take it you want the fantasy "look" of extreme HDR images from a single exposure? wrong. I don't need that fantasy HDR look, I said I'm not really into HDR thing. So for me k-30 sensor captures enough DR to be able to improve an underexposed shot shadows and highlight details during RAW post processing - this is what I need in my workflow. For this I don't need HDR specific software, I'm too busy and impatient to spend my time on it, so something like SilkyPix HDR feature would be an ideal option for me. But I've already explained what is my problem with SP. The point of this tread to share similar experience, to find out what are the other options in this matter, etc.

09-10-2013, 09:00 AM	#5
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by QCdude wrong. I don't need that fantasy HDR look, I said I'm not really into HDR thing. Well, you are not going to get any higher dynamic range than what the camera captures in a single frame without exposure bracketing. So all the dynamic range it has is there and you just have to adjust it out via software plugins that do high dynamic contrast which results in that fantasy HDR look or learn to edit your photos to selectively pull the contrast curve in areas of the photo to make it look more natural.

09-10-2013, 09:08 AM	#6
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	DxO Optics Pro can do single-shot HDR from RAWs (and JPG even) and the results can be usable for a variety of purposes. It comes with three presets for HDR (Single Shot) - 'Artistic', 'Realistic' and 'Slight'. Presets available \| www.dxo.com These presets fall under the 'Customisation' section of the program. But by default, when it opens a RAW (or a folder of RAWs), DxO will already start to apply it's in-built formulas to do what is needed to make the image look OK, including exposure, shadows and highlights, noise reduction, optical corrections etc. Often it does a decent job straight up.

09-10-2013, 09:12 AM	#7
QCdude Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 87 Original Poster	Originally posted by Na Horuk Usually you can achieve the pseudo-hdr by adjusting curves or using features like "recovery" and "fill light" (these are old Lightroom terms; different software calls it different things). You can also find some software presets that do most of this for you automatically, depending on the software you use. You can find these online. Thanks, but I'm not sure how to name these presets to be able to google them, so if you already have some URLs to share - this would be appreciated. p.s. I know about the curves, but it is time consuming to do them, especially when you have about ~300...500 shots to process.

09-10-2013, 09:18 AM	#8
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	If a camera can capture, say, 10 usable stops of light and another camera can capture say 12 stops. We can say the latter camera has higher dynamic range. But for any given camera that you want HDR (high dynamic range - higher than it can capture) you need another exposure. I guess it is multiple meaning of HDR here. I guess you mean HDR as in a well processed, maximized single frame image which is contrary to what I take HDR to mean.

09-10-2013, 09:42 AM	#10
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by QCdude yeah, 'HDR' is a kind of abused term in the photography Just like the term bokeh. It is all too often used to mean shallow depth of field. But it is a characteristic of a any given lens on how it renders the out of focus areas - eg smooth, creamy, harsh, etc.

09-10-2013, 10:27 PM	#11
pinholecam Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: North Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,706	Lightroom does have a selective brush that can tweak exposure. Otherwise, Nik efex HDR which is available as a plugin does 1 raw hdr. However it converts to Tiff to do this. If you need more control, you will need to generate 3 exposures from the 1 and do it separately.

09-11-2013, 07:28 AM	#12
QCdude Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 87 Original Poster	ok, guys, yesterday evening I had some time to play with C1 v.7 and it looks like 'Highlights' and 'Shadows' rulers do the job. It seem to be even more functional that just a single 'HDR' ruler of SilkyPix v.5 . Btw, C1 v.7 of latest release supports K-30 and all the new and older models of Pentax DSLR cameras, and for me it seem to deliver correct colors straight up. I will try to stick with C1 for a while at least for trial time. I will also give a try to LR5 maybe.

09-11-2013, 03:39 PM	#13
timb64 Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: /Situation : Doing my best to avoid idiots! Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,510	QCdude,I recently went through the same process as you,comparing LR5 and C1 and ended up plumping for C1.Whilst it didn't have as good repair/healing tools as LR I felt the overall IQ was better especially when you play with the Highlights/shadows and Clarity sliders.It also has powerful local adjustment tools for altering colour and exposure to specific areas.

09-12-2013, 08:05 AM	#14
QCdude Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 87 Original Poster	Originally posted by timb64 QCdude,I recently went through the same process as you,comparing LR5 and C1 and ended up plumping for C1.Whilst it didn't have as good repair/healing tools as LR I felt the overall IQ was better especially when you play with the Highlights/shadows and Clarity sliders.It also has powerful local adjustment tools for altering colour and exposure to specific areas. Hi timb64, thanks for update. Yeah, I have feeling like C1 v7 has best functionality and IQ for now, as well as micro contrast. Try to make use masks as well. Here is good help/tutorial: Capture One Pro 7 help \| Phase One What kind of repair/healing do you do to your images?

09-12-2013, 08:40 AM	#15
newmikey Site Supporter Join Date: May 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,287	Originally posted by QCdude But some reason it doesn't deliver same colors (they seem to be dark and pale, and some of my shots even display haze in this program which is absolutely disappointing) What you are doing is not really HDR but tonemapping of a single RAW (which I really love if used correctly). The resulting pale colors and sometimes haze and flat contrast are a direct result of the particular tonemapping operator the software uses, combined with the tendency of tonemapping to increase local micro-contrast at the expense of overall contrast. The easiest and best (maybe even only) fix for this is an extra processing step where you set the levels to eliminate the unused areas on the left and right of the histogram (pulling the "handles" in slightly), use of the curve tool to apply an S-shaped contrast curve and finally using the unsharp mask with a very large radius and very low amount to improve overall contrast and get rid of any haze. If you really want the camera's colors, you'll need to do regular raw processing with a proper color profile but this will give a radically different outcome than pseudo-HDR.