[Mary Lippold]

I've been (all day today) researching photo printers and I think I have narrowed it down to three. I now have an all-in-one Epson Artisan 710 and I want to move up. A few parts are breaking, and I'd like to print larger than 8-1/2 x 11 prints sometimes. I am a very "new" professional, having sold my African wildlife photos through my Zazzle "store" a number of times during the past year. I also have prints all over my house and am starting to sell at local events like Christmas Fairs, etc. So I want to be able to print at least a few larger prints in good quality and not just stick with 5x7 and 8x10. My cameras are Pentax K10 and K5.

I'm looking at Epson Stylus Photo R3000, the Epson 3880, and the Canon PIXMA Pro-1, and I've seen good and slightly bad reviews on all three. Mostly good. Although the Epson R3000 will print both cut-sheet and roll images, I don't know if I care about the roll capability. The R3000 has a higher dpi rating than the 3880, and the Canon also has a higher dpi rating than the 3880. The Canon also has 12 colors, which appears to produce better overall color. (Does it?) But the Epson 3880 seems to be VERY highly rated by the user reviews I have seen. I'm leaning toward the Epson 3880, but the Canon Pro-1 also is very enticing. I would appreciate opinions before making my final decision.

THANKS!
Mary

[narual]

For what it's worth -- three things to consider:
1) Frame/Mat availability. I love my 13x19 photos, but they're a bitch to display. No one sells mat board cut for that size (11x17 is hard to find but sometimes available if you don't mind cutting 2 whole inches off each side), and I've only found one pre made frame in that size to use unmatted, and it's cheap ugly plastic. And if you sell prints, then your buyers have to go through that hassle instead of you.

2) Paper availability. I buy my paper from RedRiver. It seems a lot higher quality than OEM paper. They offer a fair number of precut sizes, including 13x19, but unless I did the math wrong, the paper in a roll is much more economical. Enough so that my next printer will probably be something that handles rolls (preferably 24 inch ones).

3) Ink availability. Pick one that has *good* third party ink available. OEM ink is excellent, but they charge a huge markup for it. There are a few companies that do good third party photo ink. More for dye based than pigment based, I think.

I use Hobbicolors with my Canon Pro9000 mk2. It was great up til the day I screwed up and put red ink in the photo magenta cartridge.( Since then I've actually debated getting a new print head... just can't get rid of that tint, even after cleaning thoroughly.)

---------- Post added 08-28-14 at 08:54 PM ----------

Oh - and another alternative... rather than print them yourself, look for a company that does really high quality prints. I use Nation's Photo Lab. For small jobs you can just do it through their website, but if you want an extensive set and extra customization, they have a piece of software that you can use to place orders. And they have sales pretty regularly on large prints. I ordered a bunch (~20) of 16x20 prints of my photos before my first show (I think at $8 each, normally $17), and they were fantastic (I'm a sucker for metallic photo paper - it doesn't work for everything, but man, does it work when it does). I sold 1 print for $80 and that paid for about half the prints I had made. They'll mount the photos to styrene or mat board or foam core or whatever to save you the trouble, too. I only did that , on styrene (rigid plastic, about 2mm thick), with 1 panorama shot that my wife wanted to hang in her office without a frame, but it looked great

[Miguel]

Methinks you ought to conduct a complete business cost analysis to determine what dyi printing with any of the printers listed will truly cost you. Include consumables, and matting and framing expenses. Note the time spent learning any new things here.

Then see what a custom lab and frame shop comes to for the realistic number of prints you would cycle through. Thirdly if a Costco is nearby, cost that out too.

That may answer your question about best printers.

M

[adwb]

As a epson user, I agree with Miguel who has a very very valid point, most pros do not print but set up a workable price deal with a commercial print shop.
I have had several epson units and stopped at a 2880 ,using bulk ink, I now only use it on cheap paper for proof prints and send my commercial stuff out be be printed.
All printers get blocked nozzles and other annoyances which will cause you to waste money on paper and ink, getting the profiles and therefore the colours right is achievable but it's a pain, it's far better to work with your printer on this.
After all that's what they do for a living , what you do is create the images stick to what you are good at that my attitude.

Re the comments on mounts , my wife is a framer and we make computer cut mounts in any size you want, I know we are in the uk but ordered in sufficient quantities the post cost would not be to bad.
Have look here and see if this is of interest to you Framing Mounts

[kthornsberry]

Very good comments regarding self versus outside printing. Probably cheaper to send out, but I find making my own prints to be a lot of fun and very gratifying.

Regarding the original question, I originally bought the R3000 but returned it for the 3880 pro because the ink cartridges were too small. The 3880 pro is cheaper because of the larger ink cartridges. Much has already been written on this. Do some Googling.

Also the Red River Paper site has some analyses on average ink costs for both printers that you should review before making a purchase.

[Miguel]

Probably cheaper to send out, but I find making my own prints to be a lot of fun and very gratifying.

That's the insight behind all of this. Unless you have a steady turnover of high-priced prints (>$250 each), the real value of printing things yourself the right way is self-satisfaction.
Nothing wrong with that, life's too short.

M

[Mary Lippold]

Thanks so much to all of you. Some good ideas. I had thought of outside printing, but really hadn't pursued it. I do enjoy making my own prints, but I agree that it has been a big pain sometimes. Even with a properly calibrated monitor, I often don't end up with the print being what I expect to see but printing darker than what I see on my monitor, and have to try again, lightening up in Photoshop Elements or whatever. I really don't want to go overboard on making prints and my business is not large enough yet to spend tons of money on a huge printer. But if this Epson Artisan 710 is really going belly up as it seems to be, I figured I would try to get another printer which is a step up and makes some larger cut-sheet photos. Maybe the 3880 for making standard size 11x14 or 12x16 prints when I want them as well as smaller sizes, and if I want larger than that go outside. I'll undoubtedly keep the 710 until it totally drops dead since its an all-in-one, and use it just for regular document text printing. I will look at Red River. To date, I have been using Epson paper (Ultra Premium Glossy) and Epson brand ink cartridges also. I had thought they might do best with the Epson printer. But it sounds like you have had better experience with Red River paper. I will definitely check it out. Will also check out Nations Photo Lab. Have also seen in someone's blog article elsewhere that they like Aspen Creek Photo for small orders.

Nice website at Framing Mounts!
If anyone is interested in African wildlife photos of mine, check out my Zazzle store at www.zazzle.com/lippoldsafariphotos

I do really appreciate the input from all of you. It's so nice to have people who really understand this stuff to ask questions of. THANK YOU!!!!
Mary

[kthornsberry]

Now that I'm at a computer and have a little more time I can provide a some more information on the difference between the Epson R3000 and the 3880 Pro.

First, if you haven't seen it, this link will take you to a comparison on the Red River Paper site: Epson R3000 vs. Epson 3880 Compared

Scroll to the bottom to see links to the results of their cost of printing tests.

Having used both, I see no difference in quality. The extra resolution is beyond my ability to see. Both printers are glorious!

The size difference is negligible.

The R3000 feels more solid from the outside.

The menus, setup and bells and whistles are a little nicer on the R3000. The wireless mode was nice and (I'm embarrassed to admit this) one of my favorite whistles was the ability to load some cheap 4x6 glossy paper into the printer and print snaps directly from my iphone with the Epson iPrint app. The iPrint app doesn't work with the 3880 Pro. Oh well. Network setup was a liitle more technical on the 3880 Pro but not troublesome.

Both printers gorge themselves on ink during the initial setup process and when switching between photo black and matte black. After setting up the R3000 and playing with it a couple of days, I was already out of photo black ink. I did a number of prints in both photo and matt black to get a feel for the difference. Every time you swap black inks you burn 3 ml or so. The volume of ink necessary to prime the lines and switch blacks is a notable portion of the 25 ml ink cartridge. I hate returning purchases but I knew I wasn't going to be happy so after a couple of weeks I exchanged the R3000 for the 3880 Pro. My guess is that the 3880 Pro uses a tiny bit more ink during a black ink swap but it's much less noticeable with 80 ml ink cartridges. Both printers will drive you to think about ink conservation. I keep the 3880 Pro in matte black mode and try to do my photo black (glossy) paper prints in batches to minimize the number of swaps. Also, the unit cost of the ink ($ per ml) is quite a bit cheaper in the 80 ml cartridges. Do some shopping for cheapest source of ink whichever printer you choose. Big prints use a lot of ink. The R3000 has an economy mode that minimizes the ink used during a swap at some supposed risk to print quality. I thought the economy swap prints were just as good as the full deal so if I had kept the R3000 I would definitely be using it in economy mode. The only difference in that mode is the volume of ink that is used to purge the lines in a black ink swap. I was sad to find that the 3880 Pro does not have an economy mode.

As many reviews point out (and I'm sure you've already read) the difference in initial cost is not as much as it seems since the R3000 come with roughly 225 ml (9 cartridges x 25 ml) of ink included and the 3880 Pro comes with roughly 720 ml (9 cartridges x 80 ml) of ink included. That extra 500 ml would probably cost you close to $600 at the price of cartridges for the R3000.

Some people are concerned that at low print volumes the larger cartridges may dry out before they deplete so that is a concern.

A little known difference is what happens to waste ink during setup, swapping and full bleed printing. On the R3000 that ink falls to the bottom of the printer into a sponge that must be removed and replaced by Epson techs at the cost of parts and labor. The printer must be sent in to be serviced. On the 3880 Pro the sponge is on the side of the printer and is user servicable. The replacement sponges are not expensive and should last a long time, especially after the first one is replaced since it takes the brunt of the initial priming.

There are various loading differences and the roll paper difference you've already mentioned. None of those have mattered much to me.

I guess I probably sound biased toward the 3880 pro and it was the better choice for me.

Enjoy whatever printer you choose. Both Epson printers will give a lot of satisfaction.

---------- Post added 08-29-14 at 05:11 PM ----------

Even with a properly calibrated monitor, I often don't end up with the print being what I expect to see but printing darker than what I see on my monitor, and have to try again, lightening up in Photoshop Elements or whatever.

You can count on your prints being darker on any printer you buy. It's just a part of viewing prints on a backlit monitor but printing on front lit paper. Since the darkness is really a function of your monitor looking so awesome, you should be able to determine, after monitor calibration and soft proofing, what final tweak will usually give the look you want.

If you are using Photoshop Elements you may not be soft proofing which closes some, but not all, of the gap between the look on your monitor and the look on paper. Photoshop Elements (through version 10 at least) did not support soft proofing although there are some 3rd party plug-ins that (somewhat awkwardly) unlock the feature.

I do all my printing from Adobe Lightroom which has added two sliders to the end of the print setup area for a final tweak to brightness and contrast. When I print from Lightroom I do go through a soft proofing step and then I set those two sliders at brightness=+25 and contrast=+10 and get pretty consistent results. I also keep my monitor set at 50% brightness. It's really bright otherwise.

[narual]

Keep in mind that most good printers have third party continuous ink systems available. Cartridge size isn't necessarily a determining factor if you're interested in that.

But seriously, try some metallic photo paper. It's glorious.

[Miguel]

I also keep my monitor set at 50% brightness.

Did your calibration software allow you to set brightness in cd/m2 (candela per meter squared) values? Otherwise the "50%" metric is relative only to your setup.

M

[kthornsberry]

Did your calibration software allow you to set brightness in cd/m2 (candela per meter squared) values? Otherwise the "50%" metric is relative only to your setup.

M

Good clarification. My settings are just examples of what one might do.

---------- Post added 08-30-14 at 08:27 AM ----------

One thing that helped me a lot in understanding how to get a good print was
reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Print-Preparing-Lightroom-Photoshop/dp/0321908...9405078&sr=1-1

[PePe]

I do my own printing, also for galleries and exhibitions. For the last year and a half Epson 3880 Pro has been my main printer. If I were to buy one now, I would make the same choice.
When I bought it, Epson was selling a package including the 3880 and the Mirage software. I have found the software very useful. It can be installed as a Photoshop/PSE plug-in, allowing you to print straight from Photoshop. The user interface is way better than the standard one with more functions and much less fiddling with the settings. It also bypasses the standard printer driver´s limit for the maximum length of the print, allowing you to use roll papers with the 3880. Don´t know whether this combination is still available.

[Mary Lippold]

Wow! Once again, thank you.
(1) for calibration I used eye-one display 2. I am such a tyro, I have no idea what you mean by cd/m2 values or "50% metric", but I'm happy to try to learn.
(2) I will check out the book recommended.
(3) I have Elements 8, so no soft proofing. You mentioned a 3rd party plug in. Does it make sense to get that, or should I upgrade to a more recent Elements version that will soft proof? Or?
(4) I think I'm pretty decided on the 3880 printer, after reading all I have read, both from all of you and other online stuff. Yes I did look at Red River, and will likely start getting supplies from them.
(5) Will set my monitor brightness at 50%. Didn't even think about that! Of course it's going to show brighter than the printer output.

Still learning!
Thanks,
Mary

[kthornsberry]

I don't know if any version of Photoshop Elements Supports soft proofing and from my use it seems to be more about color matching than the brightness issue so I don't think this should drive you to an Photoshop Elements upgrade.

The key here is to figure out what kind of a tweak to brightness (and possibly mid-tone contrast) will generally make your prints give the same feel as you get on-screen.

My monitor is extremely bright so that is why I dialed back the brightness. I don't recommend it for everyone. Keep your monitor set to give good monitor performance. Don't try to make it mimic paper. If you do dim your monitor, do it BEFORE calibration.

I don't think the solution to your problem is new software but if you plan to spend some money, you should look into Lightroom. It makes getting proper prints from your printer very straightforward. The Schewe book will give actual examples of using the 3880 with Lightroom. And the benefits of Lightroom far exceed it's printing functionality.

[Miguel]

1) for calibration I used eye-one display 2. I am such a tyro, I have no idea what you mean by cd/m2 values or "50% metric", but I'm happy to try to learn.

Mary, you have a top notch calibration device, the I1. CD/m2 is a standard unit of measure for brightness of monitor. When I called out the flaw of the 50% brightness referral above, the poster was just using a subjective point of measurement. It is analogous to saying, I reduced my speed by letting up on the gas pedal by 50%. Our knowledge of what that means is pretty vague as my gas pedal is most likely differently placed from your gas pedal; plus our engines are different. That's why saying "my speed was cut in half to 20 MPH" conveys more objective meaning and understanding as we kinda sorta know what MPH is and how 20 mph differs from 40 mph.

I have the same calibration puck as you and I just cannot recall if the EyeOne software lets you assign a monitor brightness value in cd/m2 prior to the calibration and profile creation. I use the previously mentioned dispcalGUI and it clearly lets me assign a cd/m2 value. This is important if you feel your prints are too dark. Generally a monitor brightness of 90-120 cd/m2 is an acceptable range. So leave your monitor settings alone so the calibration software can manage them. If you didn't reset them to default values prior to calibration, do it and recalibrate. You should also work in a dimly or indirectly lighted room. My prints more or less match my monitors in brightness.

I assume you do have an IPS monitor?

If you are planning on spending a thousand bucks on a printer and supplies, don't rely upon a consumer level, limited function tool like Elements, especially an older version. Go for Lightroom at least and you can then use Elements for pixel-level edits.

Do realize that the Epson printers you are considering are pigment-based, whereas your Artisan is a dye-based printer. Your images will be rendered differently, most likely less saturated and less glossy. Think about what you currently like about your prints and how that change squares with your preferences. I would recommend you find someone who can run off a few samples of pigment-based output.

Don't rely only upon one vendor of paper. If you do, go with Epson because their printers are optimized for their products. I've owned two pigment printers and two dye-based ones, all for exhibition output. I recommend you purchase sample packs from 4-6 paper makers and then see what works best. Consider matt, pearl, and baryta types. You have to be patient in this business, following lots of trial and error. I did mention you should do a cost analysis to do it right.

I'd recommend you stay with Epson OEM printing ink. Less complications and your warranty won't be invalidated. Bring more money.

M