Layers, oh those layers! HELP

Spooked · 05-26-2008, 11:55 AM

Hi all

I have been using Photoshop for 5 years and feel confident in its use, however, and you may think this is a little strange, I have never understood stacking order.

I some how just fell into the habit of applyng a layer and flattening. Now i really want to get over this hurdle so that i can save important images unflattened for further re-adjustment later.

I have browsed the web for two days and found nothing that helps me. The crux of the issue is that i get to a point where i have applied maybe three adjustment layers and then aaply say a sharpening layer only to find i cannot see its effect on the image due to its order in the stack. This is what i reall need help with.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks

Peter

davemdsn · 05-26-2008, 03:28 PM

How are you applying a sharpening layer? Sharpening is not available as an adjustment layer so you have to make a layer that is the sum of all the previous layers. When I do sharpening in Photoshop I create a dupe of the base layer (original image), convert it for smart filters and apply some USM. I then add adjustment layers on top of that. Since the sharpened layer is a smart object the amount of sharpening can be altered later if needed.

ingi · 05-27-2008, 08:40 PM

Hi Peter. For layers, the easiest way for me to explain would be that you have your image on the bottom and you are stacking transparent sheets (layers) on top of that image every time you use an adjustment layer. Depending on what type of adjustment you are doing and in which blend mode, affects what happens to the layer below. Maybe if can say what your workflow is generally like I could maybe suggest a way to do that in layers.
As for the sharpening. What type of sharpening are you doing, there are a few different types and that generally specifies where in the workflow this happens. If it is a final output sharpen before resizing for web or printing, you should do this last and in that case you can create a stamped image layer ( for PS7 - Shft ctrl alt E) as your last step (on top of all your adjustment layers) This will make a copy of your image including all your adjustments and leave all your layers intact. You can then sharpen this one. But if you do make an adjustment to the layers below it wont be represented in the sharpen layer, you will have to delete this layer and do it again. Hope this helps some. I havent had a good play with CS3 and smart objects yet but it is probably easier again.

jshurak · 05-28-2008, 05:18 AM

Both of these replies are helpful, so I'm not sure what else I can add. But, I typically make sharpening the last thing I do, so that being said, I've already flattened the image before I sharpen. I typically save the file as an unflattened, unsharpened copy in the project format (.psd), then flatten and sharpen then save as a .jpg. This lets you go back later and readjust if necessary.

But I will definitely be looking into Dave's method.

PentaxLoyal · 05-28-2008, 11:21 AM

Make sure to apply your sharpening on the image layer and not any of the adjustment layers. i.e. select the image layer first then apply the sharpening otherwise you're applying it to the adjustment layer and you won't see it.

gpaual · 05-29-2008, 03:58 PM

...just a few thoughts on the subject........layers, can be extremely complex depending on what one is trying to accomplish, it is always best to seek some level of learning....peachpit press is into e-books which are downloaded via adobe reader and make for a convenient if not awkward accessibility; scott kelbys book on layers is well known and in-depth, and he certainly de-mystifies the whole layer thing.......re' " sharpening ", another endless " this is the best way " ribbon, popular photography magazine ( june 2008 ) has a formula for sharpening that is pretty intrigueing and it may be what your looking for, though it is a bit laborious. Lastly, NAPP, has a lot of info on their website re' layers and anything photoshop, as well as many free tutorials, as does many other web sites....also NAPP offers training prgrms which are so-so, but informative good luck, layers and masks will open new windows......

OniFactor · 05-31-2008, 02:37 PM

i think you need to develop a new workflow, based around your layers. i always start by doing this

open image (adjust raw if it's a raw file, not jpg)

create new layer

copy image, paste into new layer

DO NOT TOUCH THE VERY BOTTOM LAYER!!! it's there so that you ALWAYS have something to go back to. i color code it red, so that i know not to.

prioritize how you're gonna work. in CS3 you can create notes, so if you see that maybe the eyes of this portrait need some pop, or the teeth in that one need to be whitened, that other one has a blotchy skin tone in this certain area, you can circle it, mark it out, what ever you'd like, and write a note that will be like on it's own layer.

every time you finish a 'section' (i do sections by hair, skin, eyes, teeth, lighting), create a new layer, and you can paste the contents of everything below it, into that new layer. this preserves EVERYTHING that you've done, and makes it so you can undo areas at a time, instead of actions. you can also color code these, so that you know everything in blue is skin work, everything in yellow is adjusting the lighting, etc, etc..

Wombat · 06-02-2008, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by OniFactor

i think you need to develop a new workflow, based around your layers. i always start by doing this

open image (adjust raw if it's a raw file, not jpg)

create new layer

copy image, paste into new layer

DO NOT TOUCH THE VERY BOTTOM LAYER!!! it's there so that you ALWAYS have something to go back to. i color code it red, so that i know not to.

prioritize how you're gonna work. in CS3 you can create notes, so if you see that maybe the eyes of this portrait need some pop, or the teeth in that one need to be whitened, that other one has a blotchy skin tone in this certain area, you can circle it, mark it out, what ever you'd like, and write a note that will be like on it's own layer.

every time you finish a 'section' (i do sections by hair, skin, eyes, teeth, lighting), create a new layer, and you can paste the contents of everything below it, into that new layer. this preserves EVERYTHING that you've done, and makes it so you can undo areas at a time, instead of actions. you can also color code these, so that you know everything in blue is skin work, everything in yellow is adjusting the lighting, etc, etc..

That's an impressively organised and disciplined approach. Really inspiring, as I tend to be a bit haphazard. Thanks.

05-26-2008, 11:55 AM	#1
Spooked Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Helsinki Posts: 93	Layers, oh those layers! HELP Hi all I have been using Photoshop for 5 years and feel confident in its use, however, and you may think this is a little strange, I have never understood stacking order. I some how just fell into the habit of applyng a layer and flattening. Now i really want to get over this hurdle so that i can save important images unflattened for further re-adjustment later. I have browsed the web for two days and found nothing that helps me. The crux of the issue is that i get to a point where i have applied maybe three adjustment layers and then aaply say a sharpening layer only to find i cannot see its effect on the image due to its order in the stack. This is what i reall need help with. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks Peter

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Landscape First wack at layers	opiet70	Photo Critique	12	11-10-2010 11:27 AM
Help with layers in PS Elements 6 please	Thumbster21	Digital Processing, Software, and Printing	12	11-26-2009 09:32 PM
Help With Layers	joelovotti	Digital Processing, Software, and Printing	4	04-20-2009 07:09 PM
Layers of mountains	juanraortiz	Post Your Photos!	8	01-03-2009 12:16 PM

05-26-2008, 03:28 PM	#2
davemdsn Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,413	How are you applying a sharpening layer? Sharpening is not available as an adjustment layer so you have to make a layer that is the sum of all the previous layers. When I do sharpening in Photoshop I create a dupe of the base layer (original image), convert it for smart filters and apply some USM. I then add adjustment layers on top of that. Since the sharpened layer is a smart object the amount of sharpening can be altered later if needed.

05-27-2008, 08:40 PM	#3
ingi Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: sydney Posts: 40	Hi Peter. For layers, the easiest way for me to explain would be that you have your image on the bottom and you are stacking transparent sheets (layers) on top of that image every time you use an adjustment layer. Depending on what type of adjustment you are doing and in which blend mode, affects what happens to the layer below. Maybe if can say what your workflow is generally like I could maybe suggest a way to do that in layers. As for the sharpening. What type of sharpening are you doing, there are a few different types and that generally specifies where in the workflow this happens. If it is a final output sharpen before resizing for web or printing, you should do this last and in that case you can create a stamped image layer ( for PS7 - Shft ctrl alt E) as your last step (on top of all your adjustment layers) This will make a copy of your image including all your adjustments and leave all your layers intact. You can then sharpen this one. But if you do make an adjustment to the layers below it wont be represented in the sharpen layer, you will have to delete this layer and do it again. Hope this helps some. I havent had a good play with CS3 and smart objects yet but it is probably easier again.

05-28-2008, 05:18 AM	#4
jshurak Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: philadelphia Posts: 626	Both of these replies are helpful, so I'm not sure what else I can add. But, I typically make sharpening the last thing I do, so that being said, I've already flattened the image before I sharpen. I typically save the file as an unflattened, unsharpened copy in the project format (.psd), then flatten and sharpen then save as a .jpg. This lets you go back later and readjust if necessary. But I will definitely be looking into Dave's method.

05-28-2008, 11:21 AM	#5
PentaxLoyal Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery Posts: 17	Make sure to apply your sharpening on the image layer and not any of the adjustment layers. i.e. select the image layer first then apply the sharpening otherwise you're applying it to the adjustment layer and you won't see it.

05-29-2008, 03:58 PM	#6
gpaual Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: fla Photos: Gallery Posts: 375	...just a few thoughts on the subject........layers, can be extremely complex depending on what one is trying to accomplish, it is always best to seek some level of learning....peachpit press is into e-books which are downloaded via adobe reader and make for a convenient if not awkward accessibility; scott kelbys book on layers is well known and in-depth, and he certainly de-mystifies the whole layer thing.......re' " sharpening ", another endless " this is the best way " ribbon, popular photography magazine ( june 2008 ) has a formula for sharpening that is pretty intrigueing and it may be what your looking for, though it is a bit laborious. Lastly, NAPP, has a lot of info on their website re' layers and anything photoshop, as well as many free tutorials, as does many other web sites....also NAPP offers training prgrms which are so-so, but informative good luck, layers and masks will open new windows......

05-31-2008, 02:37 PM	#7
OniFactor Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Binghamton, NY, USA Posts: 643	i think you need to develop a new workflow, based around your layers. i always start by doing this open image (adjust raw if it's a raw file, not jpg) create new layer copy image, paste into new layer DO NOT TOUCH THE VERY BOTTOM LAYER!!! it's there so that you ALWAYS have something to go back to. i color code it red, so that i know not to. prioritize how you're gonna work. in CS3 you can create notes, so if you see that maybe the eyes of this portrait need some pop, or the teeth in that one need to be whitened, that other one has a blotchy skin tone in this certain area, you can circle it, mark it out, what ever you'd like, and write a note that will be like on it's own layer. every time you finish a 'section' (i do sections by hair, skin, eyes, teeth, lighting), create a new layer, and you can paste the contents of everything below it, into that new layer. this preserves EVERYTHING that you've done, and makes it so you can undo areas at a time, instead of actions. you can also color code these, so that you know everything in blue is skin work, everything in yellow is adjusting the lighting, etc, etc..

06-02-2008, 01:15 AM	#8
Wombat Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 901	Originally posted by OniFactor i think you need to develop a new workflow, based around your layers. i always start by doing this open image (adjust raw if it's a raw file, not jpg) create new layer copy image, paste into new layer DO NOT TOUCH THE VERY BOTTOM LAYER!!! it's there so that you ALWAYS have something to go back to. i color code it red, so that i know not to. prioritize how you're gonna work. in CS3 you can create notes, so if you see that maybe the eyes of this portrait need some pop, or the teeth in that one need to be whitened, that other one has a blotchy skin tone in this certain area, you can circle it, mark it out, what ever you'd like, and write a note that will be like on it's own layer. every time you finish a 'section' (i do sections by hair, skin, eyes, teeth, lighting), create a new layer, and you can paste the contents of everything below it, into that new layer. this preserves EVERYTHING that you've done, and makes it so you can undo areas at a time, instead of actions. you can also color code these, so that you know everything in blue is skin work, everything in yellow is adjusting the lighting, etc, etc.. That's an impressively organised and disciplined approach. Really inspiring, as I tend to be a bit haphazard. Thanks.