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05-28-2015, 01:56 AM   #1
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Request Adobe to support Pentax HDR and Pixel Shift RAW files

I want to encourage all Pentaxians to contact Adobe to request support for Pentax HDR and Pixel Shift RAW files in Lightroom. I think it will not demand very much effort for them to do this.

HDR needs to be read as it is, multiple exposures in one file so they can be processed as conventional multiexposure HDR in Lightroom.
Pixel Shift need to be read as multiple files also. But here Adobe must drop the Bayer filer before merging. A bonus function would be anti ghost as in HDR to overcome artifacts due to moving objects.

Go here to make your request and support your favourite brand Pentax: Adobe Customer Community

Or yet better request Ricoh to make convetional Linear DNG so Lightroom and other darkroom software can read the files in a normal manner.

What do you people think?

Best regards, Tor


Last edited by Pentor; 05-28-2015 at 02:37 AM. Reason: Or yet better request Ricoh to make convetional Linear DNG so Lightroom and other darkroom software can read the files in a n
05-28-2015, 02:45 AM - 2 Likes   #2
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Adobe already support HDR DNG from the 1.4 specification. They are using floating point data to store information. What K-3 should do was merging the images with the help of the shake reduction and create one single image with floating point instead of a bogus DNG file with several images in one file.


And Adobe already support images with RGB data. It's called linear DNG. It's a functional and great format and a MUCH better alternative than creating four images in one bogus DNG file for each pixel shift image.


So we should instead ask Ricoh why they don't use standard DNG instead of creating their own bogus files which only their own software supports. Whats the point with an open file format as DNG when the data within are non-standard and require special software? I could understand it if there wasn't any alternatives, but DNG support both HDR and pixel shift. Why not use it as specified?

If Adobe should start supporting special DNG functionality made up by Pentax/Ricoh, why should they stop there? After a while the DNG format would be a total mess. I think it is a much better solution for us and Adobe to just stick with the specification and try to force/encourage camera producers to stay with the specification and not make their own extensions to DNG.

Last edited by StigVidar; 05-28-2015 at 03:09 AM.
05-28-2015, 02:53 AM   #3
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Moved to proper are. General talk section is for non-photographic topics only.
05-28-2015, 06:51 AM - 1 Like   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by StigVidar Quote
Adobe already support HDR DNG from the 1.4 specification. They are using floating point data to store information. What K-3 should do was merging the images with the help of the shake reduction and create one single image with floating point instead of a bogus DNG file with several images in one file.


And Adobe already support images with RGB data. It's called linear DNG. It's a functional and great format and a MUCH better alternative than creating four images in one bogus DNG file for each pixel shift image.


So we should instead ask Ricoh why they don't use standard DNG instead of creating their own bogus files which only their own software supports. Whats the point with an open file format as DNG when the data within are non-standard and require special software? I could understand it if there wasn't any alternatives, but DNG support both HDR and pixel shift. Why not use it as specified?

If Adobe should start supporting special DNG functionality made up by Pentax/Ricoh, why should they stop there? After a while the DNG format would be a total mess. I think it is a much better solution for us and Adobe to just stick with the specification and try to force/encourage camera producers to stay with the specification and not make their own extensions to DNG.
+1

It's not Adobe's problem if Pentax doesn't properly follow DNG standard. The DNG standard already have everything that's needed to support HDR/PS. Pentax only have to tell their software guys to follow the standard...

05-28-2015, 07:05 AM   #5
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I was a little quick posting my suggestion. I quicly learned from Stig Vidar that DNG already have the required potensial. So Ricoh is sure the place to adress the question of support for the proper file format in DNG. But how to get their attention? Maybe if many people in the Pentax community stand behind this wish and it is forwarded to the right people in Ricoh maybe there is a chance.
05-28-2015, 11:12 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentor Quote
What do you people think?
The Pentax DNG files for both HDR and Pixel Shift use features from the TIFF/ED specification (subIFD chaining) that are explicitly not supported in the DNG specification. In theory, the Adobe software should simply barf. Instead, the Lightroom and other Adobe products simply display the first image in the chain.

Translation? This is a Pentax problem and Adobe has provided a fail-over behavior that provides base level use of the file. Kudos to Adobe for a robust behavior...black mark for Ricoh/Pentax for a non-compliant file structure.


Steve
05-28-2015, 11:13 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentor Quote
Maybe if many people in the Pentax community stand behind this wish and it is forwarded to the right people in Ricoh maybe there is a chance.
You might try the "official" Ricoh user forum.

Home - RIAC Community


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05-28-2015, 12:48 PM   #8
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I think there is a big difference, between an putting an processed HDR-RAW which is nearly the same as an jpg and the Pentax method puting the three raw pictures into one file, to give me a chance of developing the picture in the way that I want.
The same is giving me the four raw pictures of a pixelshift photo. There a lot of algorythms available to process such pictures to optimal performance. So if you happy with an preprocessed picture as an RAW it is ok, but it is not may way.

But I would have been happier, when pentax would deliver such pictures as three or for pictures, because Adobe an other raw-converters are so slow in adapting usefull features. I don't understand why Adobe isn't able to process the 3 pictures of an HDR which are stored according to the specification in their private format DNG.

05-29-2015, 02:10 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by joergens.mi Quote
I don't understand why Adobe isn't able to process the 3 pictures of an HDR which are stored according to the specification in their private format DNG.
They are NOT stored according to the DNG specification, that's the trouble.
05-29-2015, 04:58 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by StigVidar Quote
They are NOT stored according to the DNG specification, that's the trouble.
Can you axplain it?

The DNG Format is capable of storing serveral pictures in one DNG. Adobe specified this. An Adobe member of the support forum told me, that at the moment Adobe itself is not capable to access all pictures in an dng file with his RAW-converter software, they didn't implement it yet.

And the floating HDR format that you prefer is not the solution, because the camera must do the deghosting. It is much better to have the 3 raws and select the HDR converter you like to process the files in the best possible way. The result of all the processing can be stored in an floating HDR DNG - thats not the problem.

Because of the missing Adobe support, I do my HDR 3 and 5 pictures with exposure bracketing (selectable with variable EV) and do all the calculation on my PC.

With HDR that is no problem. But with the pixelshift it will become one. There are no external software available for the processing the 4 pictures to an complete RGB picture
06-22-2015, 03:26 AM   #11
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So whats the situation nowadays?
I bought the K3 II last week and did several test shots. To my surprise I could see no difference between PixelShift and regular pictures. Now I know it was Lightrooms "fault" but however, I'm not planning to install another photo software, nor am I happy with the workaround, rendering those pictures as TIFF inside the camera. (I figured that out per chance).

After seeing this feature in action I'm impressed, but considering the dreadful usability regarding standard, yes I call Lightroom standard, software, I'm disappointed.

Kind Regards from Austria!
06-22-2015, 05:01 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Translation? This is a Pentax problem and Adobe has provided a fail-over behavior that provides base level use of the file. Kudos to Adobe for a robust behavior...black mark for Ricoh/Pentax for a non-compliant file structure.
Thanks for the translation, is got left behind on that last curve, but now I'm back in the room again.
06-22-2015, 08:25 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adrastos Quote
So whats the situation nowadays?After seeing this feature in action I'm impressed, but considering the dreadful usability regarding standard, yes I call Lightroom standard, software, I'm disappointed.

Kind Regards from Austria!
At the moment only the DCU 5.4.1 from pentax ist able to work on HDR and PSR files. All other only use one of the four pictures and do normal processing.


I hope that adobe will fix this in their software ACR / lighroom as sson as possible - but the hdr File Problem ist not fixed after more than one year.

There is only on promising thing, there is a modification on dcraw available to handle this - You get an 16 Bit tiff picture that you can handle in all other RAW -converters.

The source is in german: Pentax K-3 II Pixelshift support in dcraw verf

Pentax pixelshift support for dcraw available creating 16bit linear TIFF: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
06-22-2015, 09:49 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by joergens.mi Quote
Can you axplain it?

The DNG Format is capable of storing serveral pictures in one DNG.
The problem is the way Ricoh/Pentax implemented the stacked images in the DNG. The DNG specification explicitly states that the construct used by Ricoh/Pentax is not supported. It is as simple as that. Ricoh extended the DNG in a proprietary manner and Adobe has no obligation to support that extension. If any fix is coming, it will have to be done by Ricoh.


Steve
06-22-2015, 10:15 AM   #15
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See here Why doesn't my version of Photoshop or Lightroom support my camera?

Eric Chan (Camera Raw Engineer) 1 year ago
To be clear ... we are getting ready to post Release Candidate (RC) versions of the next dot releases of Camera Raw and Lightroom. These RC versions will not have PEF raw support for the Pentax K-3, but the final versions will.
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good answer!


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  • Peter Dietrich 1 year ago
    Hi Eric Chan,

    I'm coming up with a second question concerning Raw-format /DNG for pentax K3.

    There is a possibilitiy to shoot HDR in RAW mode with the K3. The result is a file with the contents of the three shots in one DNG / PEF file. I understand that PEF support is coming soon (and I'm not asking for a delivery date). But how can I process the DNG. It contains 3 pictures and I can only see and process one (I assume it will be the first of the three pictures). Is there a posiibility in ACR 8.2 (together with PS6) or how can I seperate the three images to process them as three pictures.
    Using Phil Harvey's exiftools you can see the Meta-data of the three pictures

    On this page
    https://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/p...
    you find a sample image Look for

    "In-Camera HDR RAW
    ISO 100, F3.5, 1/250s - HD Pentax-DA 70mm F2.4 Ltd. (on tripod)
    DNG Download | "HDR 3" JPEG Download"

    that is file with the data in

    Thanks in advance
    Peter Dietrich

  • Eric Chan (Camera Raw Engineer) 1 year ago
    Hi Peter,

    At present ACR/Lr will only read the first image, as you mentioned (first "internal file directory", or IFD). We are looking into ways to enable users to separate/combine the images, but unfortunately at present we don't have that.





As you can see Eric Chan (Camera Raw Engineer) from Adobe sees it a little different, but i think the management section isn't interested.
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