Printing Workflow

Nick Siebers · 08-14-2015, 10:35 PM

Hi all! For the last year I've been suffering with an Epson all-in-one printer that does everything well except photos. They just come out flat and lifeless. The HP I had previously did a much better job. So I pounced on one of the deals this week and picked up a Canon Pixma Pro-100. It came today, and I am overwhelmed, by its physical size and the apparent complexity of getting the best out of it. It has a plug-in to seamlessly automate with Photoshop and Lightroom, but I am only a free program user - Pentax Utility, FastStone, GIMP, LightZone, DXO pro 8, etc. I am a little lost on how to proceed to get the best out of my new printer. If anyone has any advice about a good workflow, especially around color space, I'd appreciate it.

Up until now I have been editing my RAW shots with one or more of those programs, saving as a jpeg, and then printing from that, usually with FastStone. All in sRGB, which matches my monitor. The documentation with the printer suggests printing from RAW, but I am not sure how to do that and still save my edits. Should I be using TIFF files? The documentation also suggests printing from Adobe RGB if printing from RAW, but sRGB if printing from jpeg. I just don't know how to move.

I did print a few test shots from jpeg in sRGB, and the look pretty good, but not as lively (luminous?) as on the screen. So I want to be sure I am doing everything I can to get it right. Thanks for any help or good links! Nick

**keruili** · 08-15-2015, 12:49 AM

I usually don't print my own photos just because of the hassles of getting it right. My only advice on this would be to try the Lightroom & Photoshop bundle on the monthly subscription. It has been an awesome addition to my workflow and took away all of the quirks that came with using all the freeware I had before.
The luminous look could be from the paper being used (or not used) or just an issue of screen to printer calibration. Does the program you are printing from have a driver or profile for your printer? This goes a long way toward getting the photo you see on the screen.

calsan · 08-15-2015, 04:27 AM

Are you using photo paper or plain business? Sorry if that's an obvious question. My Epson prints completely differently on business paper and photo paper. When photo paper is selected in the driver, it takes about ten times longer to print and the results are great.

reeftool · 08-15-2015, 04:57 AM - **1 Like**

I have an older Canon, the Pixma Pro 9000 Mark ll. I print pretty much out of Lightroom all the time and my monitor is calibrated and the printer profile is in there too. I have also had decent results with prints straight out of Picasa just using the printer settings. I have my monitor turned down low but it's still brighter than a print so I add a little +EV to my shots before I print. I also make sure I have the paper profile right. I mostly use Canon paper for the simple reason that I have never paid for it. I try to take advantage of sale specials when I buy ink and Canon often has free paper with ink purchases. For other papers, I make sure I have a profile for it. It does make a difference.

Professor Batty · 08-15-2015, 07:52 AM - **1 Like**

I have the Pro-100 as well. I use it with a Retina MacBook Pro with the brightness set to 60%, and a Viewsonic Monitor tweaked to match the MacBook. Your room illumination will definitely affect the apparent brightness so try to keep it consistent, and not too bright.

I print from Photoshop, using Premier premium luster (it has brighter whites than the Epson PL). Before sending the image to the printer I always add +20 saturation. On the Color Management page I select: "Printer Manages Colors", <LU> 3 Photo Paper Profile, Relative Colormetric.

Images with Adobe RGB (the default color space in RAW) will produce a little more color gamut than sRGB, but to my eye the difference is slight. sRGB looks better on the WEB, but Adobe RGB will print better.

It seems to me that your workflow is pretty close, just try adding some additional saturation before printing (just enough so the image looks a little 'garish' on the screen), and use the <LU> 3 photo paper profile. I think you'll be pleased with the results.

Once you find a paper you like, stick with it. I've used sampler packs from various manufacturers and although the paper stock itself is nicer, they don't have the dmin and dmax of a premium luster and require a lot of additional testing.

The HP photo luster paper I get from Office Max is pretty good (good enough for most uses), and can usually be gotten quite cheaply with Office Max's various promotions and coupons.

You'll be replacing the paler inks a lot more than the solid colors, if you find a deal on those, stock up.

Nick Siebers · 08-15-2015, 08:15 AM

Thanks everybody! Good stuff so far. My test prints were with some old HP photo paper I had around; I'll try some better stuff when I feel more confident. It sounds like that makes a difference. And adding a bit of saturation before printing, just like pre-printing sharpening, makes sense. I'm not sure about which color space to use, mostly I look at the shots on my computer, where sRGB looks better. Is it possible to switch color space after the shot, if I decide to print one? Doesn't seem like that would help, only further limit the gamut, but I don't know. And should I print from my RAW file after editing it, before I convert/save it, for the higher bits? Maybe convert to tif?

So many questions. :-)

narual · 08-15-2015, 08:53 AM - **1 Like**

Before you blow a lot of money on pricey photo paper, give Inkjet Photographic Papers Premium Photo Paper by Red River a try. Their polar pearl metallic and Aurora Art Natural are my favorites, but a lot of their papers are really nice, and much cheaper than the comparable Epson/Canon/etc. (If I could afford it, I'd give every photographer I knew a few sheets of PPM to try, it's so nice).

As for print vs screen... well, the screen is going to look brighter because it's made of light. If you have a calibrated display and are using the right printer profile for the paper and printer combination you're using (and using OEM ink instead of third party), the colors should match exactly, but the brightness may require tweaking. FWIW, if you're using Lightroom, you can do a print proof that uses your selected paper profile and simulates on the screen how it should look on paper.

Professor Batty · 08-15-2015, 09:02 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Nick Siebers

Thanks everybody! Good stuff so far. My test prints were with some old HP photo paper I had around; I'll try some better stuff when I feel more confident. It sounds like that makes a difference. And adding a bit of saturation before printing, just like pre-printing sharpening, makes sense. I'm not sure about which color space to use, mostly I look at the shots on my computer, where sRGB looks better. Is it possible to switch color space after the shot, if I decide to print one? Doesn't seem like that would help, only further limit the gamut, but I don't know. And should I print from my RAW file after editing it, before I convert/save it, for the higher bits? Maybe convert to tif?

So many questions. :-)

I think the deal with the saturation is that the image on the monitor is direct light, whereas the print is reflected light. The monitor will always look more "luminous" because of that.

While I think that images shot in native Adobe RGB look marginally better on a pigment printer (I worked for years with the big Epsons with the K3 inks), they won't be so much different on an dye printer. There are monitors that can show nearly the full Adobe RGB gamut, but they are big bucks. Get a simple workflow (and write it down) that works pretty well for you and then make a bunch of prints. After a while you'll sense what, if anything, you'll want to change. You can use either sRGB or Adobe RGB. Like you said, the sRGB looks better on the screen, converting it to Adobe RGB won't make a difference, not so the other way around.

I think the Pro-100 is a great way to get into printing. The printer can be had for $50-$100 new, add $400 for ink and paper and you will end up with hundreds of prints and an greatly expanded knowledge of photography—all for about the price of a single photo class or seminar.

The Pro-100 does use ink on start-up, try to batch your works so you aren't printing just one or two per session. I've had mine for a year and a half and have never had a clogged head, so the head-cleaning on start-up is worth it.

Don't be tempted by aftermarket inks, they're nothing but trouble.

Nick Siebers · 08-16-2015, 06:58 PM

Thanks Professor! I made a batch of 4x6s today, and then a couple of 8 by 10s. The last few turned out really good! Of course, I am sure this technique would have helped my old printer perform better, but the new one is an inspiration. At some point I'll have to get some 11 by 13 paper....

Originally posted by Professor Batty

I think the deal with the saturation is that the image on the monitor is direct light, whereas the print is reflected light. The monitor will always look more "luminous" because of that.

While I think that images shot in native Adobe RGB look marginally better on a pigment printer (I worked for years with the big Epsons with the K3 inks), they won't be so much different on an dye printer. There are monitors that can show nearly the full Adobe RGB gamut, but they are big bucks. Get a simple workflow (and write it down) that works pretty well for you and then make a bunch of prints. After a while you'll sense what, if anything, you'll want to change. You can use either sRGB or Adobe RGB. Like you said, the sRGB looks better on the screen, converting it to Adobe RGB won't make a difference, not so the other way around.

I think the Pro-100 is a great way to get into printing. The printer can be had for $50-$100 new, add $400 for ink and paper and you will end up with hundreds of prints and an greatly expanded knowledge of photography—all for about the price of a single photo class or seminar.

The Pro-100 does use ink on start-up, try to batch your works so you aren't printing just one or two per session. I've had mine for a year and a half and have never had a clogged head, so the head-cleaning on start-up is worth it.

Don't be tempted by aftermarket inks, they're nothing but trouble.

Professor Batty · 08-16-2015, 08:58 PM

stevebrot · 08-19-2015, 10:25 AM

Keys to success:

Monitor calibration...this helps establish the accuracy of what you see when you do your edits*
Quality inks
Appropriate paper...for the Pixma Pro 100 referenced at the beginning of this thread, that means papers that work well with dye-based ink. The paper's maker will usually provide information about compatible products.
Print to an appropriate ICC profile for your printer/paper combination. That will assist in a correct mapping of the image data to appearance.
If you print directly from file using the printer driver, make sure that embedded color space** matches what you used for editing. sRGB is adequate for many devices, but a broader gamut gives the printer more to work with and is more likely to be closer to what you saw on the monitor.
If you need to make print-specific edits, do so to a special "print" version of your file.

Steve

* There is a common confusion regarding monitor calibration and printing. The two are complementary, but completely independent. The printer ICC profile provides runtime figuration for the printer driver. These work the same regardless of the monitor profile.

** Color space (essentially the same as gamut) is related to, but not the same thing as device color profile. A good rule of thumb is to view and edit to a broad color gamut (e.g. Adobe RGB or Pro Photo RGB) and publish to a color space appropriate to the target device. For the Web, or e-mail, that would be sRGB.

ruben · 08-21-2015, 02:01 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Nick Siebers

Hi all! For the last year I've been suffering with an Epson all-in-one printer that does everything well except photos. They just come out flat and lifeless. The HP I had previously did a much better job. So I pounced on one of the deals this week and picked up a Canon Pixma Pro-100. It came today, and I am overwhelmed, by its physical size and the apparent complexity of getting the best out of it. It has a plug-in to seamlessly automate with Photoshop and Lightroom, but I am only a free program user - Pentax Utility, FastStone, GIMP, LightZone, DXO pro 8, etc. I am a little lost on how to proceed to get the best out of my new printer. If anyone has any advice about a good workflow, especially around color space, I'd appreciate it.

Up until now I have been editing my RAW shots with one or more of those programs, saving as a jpeg, and then printing from that, usually with FastStone. All in sRGB, which matches my monitor. The documentation with the printer suggests printing from RAW, but I am not sure how to do that and still save my edits. Should I be using TIFF files? The documentation also suggests printing from Adobe RGB if printing from RAW, but sRGB if printing from jpeg. I just don't know how to move.

I did print a few test shots from jpeg in sRGB, and the look pretty good, but not as lively (luminous?) as on the screen. So I want to be sure I am doing everything I can to get it right. Thanks for any help or good links! Nick

Can recommend you this eBook as a start into the color managed workflow:
http://spyder.datacolor.com/scripts/ebook-en/Spyder_eBook_EN_final.pdf

Helped me out to get into it.

08-14-2015, 10:35 PM	#1
Nick Siebers Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Madison, WI Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,165	Printing Workflow Hi all! For the last year I've been suffering with an Epson all-in-one printer that does everything well except photos. They just come out flat and lifeless. The HP I had previously did a much better job. So I pounced on one of the deals this week and picked up a Canon Pixma Pro-100. It came today, and I am overwhelmed, by its physical size and the apparent complexity of getting the best out of it. It has a plug-in to seamlessly automate with Photoshop and Lightroom, but I am only a free program user - Pentax Utility, FastStone, GIMP, LightZone, DXO pro 8, etc. I am a little lost on how to proceed to get the best out of my new printer. If anyone has any advice about a good workflow, especially around color space, I'd appreciate it. Up until now I have been editing my RAW shots with one or more of those programs, saving as a jpeg, and then printing from that, usually with FastStone. All in sRGB, which matches my monitor. The documentation with the printer suggests printing from RAW, but I am not sure how to do that and still save my edits. Should I be using TIFF files? The documentation also suggests printing from Adobe RGB if printing from RAW, but sRGB if printing from jpeg. I just don't know how to move. I did print a few test shots from jpeg in sRGB, and the look pretty good, but not as lively (luminous?) as on the screen. So I want to be sure I am doing everything I can to get it right. Thanks for any help or good links! Nick

08-19-2015, 10:25 AM	#11
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Keys to success: Monitor calibration...this helps establish the accuracy of what you see when you do your edits* Quality inks Appropriate paper...for the Pixma Pro 100 referenced at the beginning of this thread, that means papers that work well with dye-based ink. The paper's maker will usually provide information about compatible products. Print to an appropriate ICC profile for your printer/paper combination. That will assist in a correct mapping of the image data to appearance. If you print directly from file using the printer driver, make sure that embedded color space** matches what you used for editing. sRGB is adequate for many devices, but a broader gamut gives the printer more to work with and is more likely to be closer to what you saw on the monitor. If you need to make print-specific edits, do so to a special "print" version of your file. Steve * There is a common confusion regarding monitor calibration and printing. The two are complementary, but completely independent. The printer ICC profile provides runtime figuration for the printer driver. These work the same regardless of the monitor profile. ** Color space (essentially the same as gamut) is related to, but not the same thing as device color profile. A good rule of thumb is to view and edit to a broad color gamut (e.g. Adobe RGB or Pro Photo RGB) and publish to a color space appropriate to the target device. For the Web, or e-mail, that would be sRGB. Last edited by stevebrot; 08-19-2015 at 10:38 AM.

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08-15-2015, 12:49 AM	#2
keruili Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: British Columbia Photos: Gallery Posts: 146	I usually don't print my own photos just because of the hassles of getting it right. My only advice on this would be to try the Lightroom & Photoshop bundle on the monthly subscription. It has been an awesome addition to my workflow and took away all of the quirks that came with using all the freeware I had before. The luminous look could be from the paper being used (or not used) or just an issue of screen to printer calibration. Does the program you are printing from have a driver or profile for your printer? This goes a long way toward getting the photo you see on the screen.

08-15-2015, 04:27 AM	#3
calsan Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,548	Are you using photo paper or plain business? Sorry if that's an obvious question. My Epson prints completely differently on business paper and photo paper. When photo paper is selected in the driver, it takes about ten times longer to print and the results are great.

08-15-2015, 04:57 AM - 1 Like	#4
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,554	I have an older Canon, the Pixma Pro 9000 Mark ll. I print pretty much out of Lightroom all the time and my monitor is calibrated and the printer profile is in there too. I have also had decent results with prints straight out of Picasa just using the printer settings. I have my monitor turned down low but it's still brighter than a print so I add a little +EV to my shots before I print. I also make sure I have the paper profile right. I mostly use Canon paper for the simple reason that I have never paid for it. I try to take advantage of sale specials when I buy ink and Canon often has free paper with ink purchases. For other papers, I make sure I have a profile for it. It does make a difference.

08-15-2015, 07:52 AM - 1 Like	#5
Professor Batty Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 118	I have the Pro-100 as well. I use it with a Retina MacBook Pro with the brightness set to 60%, and a Viewsonic Monitor tweaked to match the MacBook. Your room illumination will definitely affect the apparent brightness so try to keep it consistent, and not too bright. I print from Photoshop, using Premier premium luster (it has brighter whites than the Epson PL). Before sending the image to the printer I always add +20 saturation. On the Color Management page I select: "Printer Manages Colors", <LU> 3 Photo Paper Profile, Relative Colormetric. Images with Adobe RGB (the default color space in RAW) will produce a little more color gamut than sRGB, but to my eye the difference is slight. sRGB looks better on the WEB, but Adobe RGB will print better. It seems to me that your workflow is pretty close, just try adding some additional saturation before printing (just enough so the image looks a little 'garish' on the screen), and use the <LU> 3 photo paper profile. I think you'll be pleased with the results. Once you find a paper you like, stick with it. I've used sampler packs from various manufacturers and although the paper stock itself is nicer, they don't have the dmin and dmax of a premium luster and require a lot of additional testing. The HP photo luster paper I get from Office Max is pretty good (good enough for most uses), and can usually be gotten quite cheaply with Office Max's various promotions and coupons. You'll be replacing the paler inks a lot more than the solid colors, if you find a deal on those, stock up.

08-15-2015, 08:15 AM	#6
Nick Siebers Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Madison, WI Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,165 Original Poster	Thanks everybody! Good stuff so far. My test prints were with some old HP photo paper I had around; I'll try some better stuff when I feel more confident. It sounds like that makes a difference. And adding a bit of saturation before printing, just like pre-printing sharpening, makes sense. I'm not sure about which color space to use, mostly I look at the shots on my computer, where sRGB looks better. Is it possible to switch color space after the shot, if I decide to print one? Doesn't seem like that would help, only further limit the gamut, but I don't know. And should I print from my RAW file after editing it, before I convert/save it, for the higher bits? Maybe convert to tif? So many questions. :-)

08-15-2015, 08:53 AM - 1 Like	#7
narual Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South Bend (Notre Dame), Indiana Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,988	Before you blow a lot of money on pricey photo paper, give Inkjet Photographic Papers Premium Photo Paper by Red River a try. Their polar pearl metallic and Aurora Art Natural are my favorites, but a lot of their papers are really nice, and much cheaper than the comparable Epson/Canon/etc. (If I could afford it, I'd give every photographer I knew a few sheets of PPM to try, it's so nice). As for print vs screen... well, the screen is going to look brighter because it's made of light. If you have a calibrated display and are using the right printer profile for the paper and printer combination you're using (and using OEM ink instead of third party), the colors should match exactly, but the brightness may require tweaking. FWIW, if you're using Lightroom, you can do a print proof that uses your selected paper profile and simulates on the screen how it should look on paper.

08-15-2015, 09:02 AM - 1 Like	#8
Professor Batty Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 118	Originally posted by Nick Siebers Thanks everybody! Good stuff so far. My test prints were with some old HP photo paper I had around; I'll try some better stuff when I feel more confident. It sounds like that makes a difference. And adding a bit of saturation before printing, just like pre-printing sharpening, makes sense. I'm not sure about which color space to use, mostly I look at the shots on my computer, where sRGB looks better. Is it possible to switch color space after the shot, if I decide to print one? Doesn't seem like that would help, only further limit the gamut, but I don't know. And should I print from my RAW file after editing it, before I convert/save it, for the higher bits? Maybe convert to tif? So many questions. :-) I think the deal with the saturation is that the image on the monitor is direct light, whereas the print is reflected light. The monitor will always look more "luminous" because of that. While I think that images shot in native Adobe RGB look marginally better on a pigment printer (I worked for years with the big Epsons with the K3 inks), they won't be so much different on an dye printer. There are monitors that can show nearly the full Adobe RGB gamut, but they are big bucks. Get a simple workflow (and write it down) that works pretty well for you and then make a bunch of prints. After a while you'll sense what, if anything, you'll want to change. You can use either sRGB or Adobe RGB. Like you said, the sRGB looks better on the screen, converting it to Adobe RGB won't make a difference, not so the other way around. I think the Pro-100 is a great way to get into printing. The printer can be had for $50-$100 new, add $400 for ink and paper and you will end up with hundreds of prints and an greatly expanded knowledge of photography—all for about the price of a single photo class or seminar. The Pro-100 does use ink on start-up, try to batch your works so you aren't printing just one or two per session. I've had mine for a year and a half and have never had a clogged head, so the head-cleaning on start-up is worth it. Don't be tempted by aftermarket inks, they're nothing but trouble.

08-16-2015, 06:58 PM	#9
Nick Siebers Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Madison, WI Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,165 Original Poster	Thanks Professor! I made a batch of 4x6s today, and then a couple of 8 by 10s. The last few turned out really good! Of course, I am sure this technique would have helped my old printer perform better, but the new one is an inspiration. At some point I'll have to get some 11 by 13 paper.... Originally posted by Professor Batty I think the deal with the saturation is that the image on the monitor is direct light, whereas the print is reflected light. The monitor will always look more "luminous" because of that. While I think that images shot in native Adobe RGB look marginally better on a pigment printer (I worked for years with the big Epsons with the K3 inks), they won't be so much different on an dye printer. There are monitors that can show nearly the full Adobe RGB gamut, but they are big bucks. Get a simple workflow (and write it down) that works pretty well for you and then make a bunch of prints. After a while you'll sense what, if anything, you'll want to change. You can use either sRGB or Adobe RGB. Like you said, the sRGB looks better on the screen, converting it to Adobe RGB won't make a difference, not so the other way around. I think the Pro-100 is a great way to get into printing. The printer can be had for $50-$100 new, add $400 for ink and paper and you will end up with hundreds of prints and an greatly expanded knowledge of photography—all for about the price of a single photo class or seminar. The Pro-100 does use ink on start-up, try to batch your works so you aren't printing just one or two per session. I've had mine for a year and a half and have never had a clogged head, so the head-cleaning on start-up is worth it. Don't be tempted by aftermarket inks, they're nothing but trouble.

08-16-2015, 08:58 PM	#10
Professor Batty Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 118

08-21-2015, 02:01 PM - 1 Like	#12
ruben Inactive Account Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 21	Originally posted by Nick Siebers Hi all! For the last year I've been suffering with an Epson all-in-one printer that does everything well except photos. They just come out flat and lifeless. The HP I had previously did a much better job. So I pounced on one of the deals this week and picked up a Canon Pixma Pro-100. It came today, and I am overwhelmed, by its physical size and the apparent complexity of getting the best out of it. It has a plug-in to seamlessly automate with Photoshop and Lightroom, but I am only a free program user - Pentax Utility, FastStone, GIMP, LightZone, DXO pro 8, etc. I am a little lost on how to proceed to get the best out of my new printer. If anyone has any advice about a good workflow, especially around color space, I'd appreciate it. Up until now I have been editing my RAW shots with one or more of those programs, saving as a jpeg, and then printing from that, usually with FastStone. All in sRGB, which matches my monitor. The documentation with the printer suggests printing from RAW, but I am not sure how to do that and still save my edits. Should I be using TIFF files? The documentation also suggests printing from Adobe RGB if printing from RAW, but sRGB if printing from jpeg. I just don't know how to move. I did print a few test shots from jpeg in sRGB, and the look pretty good, but not as lively (luminous?) as on the screen. So I want to be sure I am doing everything I can to get it right. Thanks for any help or good links! Nick Can recommend you this eBook as a start into the color managed workflow: http://spyder.datacolor.com/scripts/ebook-en/Spyder_eBook_EN_final.pdf Helped me out to get into it.