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02-27-2016, 06:13 AM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
He wants to be able to take RAW files and layer them on top of each other in editing software.
I would say that is impossible with any kind of program.

02-27-2016, 09:59 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rai93 Quote
It's not, and for good reasons. There's no way they could check and see if I've made digital copies of the software so giving me a refund would be based on an "honor" system and there aren't too many companies that do that anymore. I'm not too bugged about it because LR IS a great program, I'm just annoyed at the marketing of having something as integral to photography as layers not being included in a photography development program. It is what it is though. I guess I'll be digging out the old college books and re-learning photoshop, though I might have to buy some new ones. Oh well, such is life.
It IS transferable.

Adobe software gets registered on machines when installed. You de-register, and Adobe has the forms for transfering the license here: https://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/transfer-product-license.html
02-27-2016, 06:45 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by newmikey Quote
I would say that is impossible with any kind of program.
LR's photomerge can do it - input and output can be DNG.
02-28-2016, 03:45 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rai93 Quote
I do need another program specifically for layering astrophotography photos
As you've already hinted at... for under $10 a month you could go the Adobe CC route, which gives you Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC and Lightroom mobile.

I'd be very surprised if Photoshop could not do what you want.

02-28-2016, 04:56 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
LR's photomerge can do it - input and output can be DNG.
I really shouldn't be saying this as I simply do not know LR at all but, isn't it that regardless of the output format, the content of any such file can no longer be raw sensor data, or do I simply misinterpret the use of the word "raw" here to indicate something totally different?

I had the same issue with "layering raw", raw data, pre-debayering, has no dimensions or pixels which can interact with pies on other layers. Maybe the software creates a pixel matrix (bmp or tiff) in memory on-the-fly, but it can certainly not be acting on a raw file itself.

Last question maybe for the pundits: raw is raw because it is a one-way format: you can copy the raw sensor data, extract the image information and pixels from it but you can never create a true raw file without clicking the shutter. I suppose I don't really understand what "saving as DNG" really means to the raw content of that file. (I never did accept the "DNG as savior" and stuck to PEF throughout the years). It seems even Pentax is still strongly hanging on to PEF, even with the K-1.
02-28-2016, 04:56 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kerrowdown Quote
As you've already hinted at... for under $10 a month you could go the Adobe CC route, which gives you Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC and Lightroom mobile.

I'd be very surprised if Photoshop could not do what you want.
I know, getting it on my next off day, I don't want to get it and not play with it when I have to work the next day rofl. I'll end up getting 3 hours of sleep probably.
02-28-2016, 06:05 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by newmikey Quote
I really shouldn't be saying this as I simply do not know LR at all
There are deep DNG experts on this forum, but I am not one of them.

Here are a few useful explanations I came across about LR's DNG merging, in both HDR photomerges, and panorama merges:
QuoteQuote:
The resulting DNGs from an HDR Photo Merge are saved as 16-bit floating point files, where the merged data is raw linear RGB data (see Figure 4.35). The DNG files may therefore be quite large in size. You could argue these are not truly raw files, but DNGs produced this way are still mostly unprocessed and allow you to make creative color and tone decisions via the Lightroom Develop module. You also retain the flexibility to reprocess the resulting DNG files any time you like and apply later process versions. Essentially, it means you can merge raw files to create an unprocessed master where you can then fine-tune the settings at the post–Photo Merge stage, adjusting things like the white balance and endpoint clipping. This is particularly helpful when using the Photo Merge feature in Panorama mode.
From:
Creating HDR Photos Using Photo Merge in Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC > Photo Merge DNGs

QuoteQuote:
You can also use the Photo Merge feature to create DNG panoramas from raw as well as non-raw files. The resulting files are 16-bit integer DNGs. Like the HDR DNGs, these are demosaiced DNGs saved as raw linear RGB data (see Figure 4.37). Although the images are partially processed, you still retain the ability to apply Develop module edits and update to later process versions as they become available.
Creating Panorama Photos Using Photo Merge in Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC > Panorama projection options

All I know is that the feature works very well.
02-28-2016, 06:27 AM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rai93 Quote
I know, getting it on my next off day, I don't want to get it and not play with it when I have to work the next day rofl. I'll end up getting 3 hours of sleep probably
You wont regret it, but your a little optimistic if you think your gonna get as much as three hours sleep.

02-28-2016, 08:09 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rai93 Quote
Um... I explained in the OP that although I love Lightroom, I really need a "solid program where I can layer the photos in RAW" for astrophotography, layering them in TIFF or JPEG lowers the quality, especially since I live in a light polluted town.
When you send Photoshop raw files, ACR will convert them to a bitmap format for the layering in Photoshop (essentially a 16 bit tiff). AFAIK, you're not going to be able to avoid this - Photoshop doesn't directly edit camera raw files. Photoshop's optimum quality output will also be a bitmap format, tiff or psd*, and not a camera raw format like you seem to be after.


*Photoshop has its own "raw" format which is different from a camera .dng kind of raw and probably not something you'll ever want to use.
02-28-2016, 10:23 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by newmikey Quote
I really shouldn't be saying this as I simply do not know LR at all but, isn't it that regardless of the output format, the content of any such file can no longer be raw sensor data, or do I simply misinterpret the use of the word "raw" here to indicate something totally different?

I had the same issue with "layering raw", raw data, pre-debayering, has no dimensions or pixels which can interact with pies on other layers. Maybe the software creates a pixel matrix (bmp or tiff) in memory on-the-fly, but it can certainly not be acting on a raw file itself.

Last question maybe for the pundits: raw is raw because it is a one-way format: you can copy the raw sensor data, extract the image information and pixels from it but you can never create a true raw file without clicking the shutter. I suppose I don't really understand what "saving as DNG" really means to the raw content of that file. (I never did accept the "DNG as savior" and stuck to PEF throughout the years). It seems even Pentax is still strongly hanging on to PEF, even with the K-1.
A RAW file is a lot of stuff. Some image stuff; some metadata stuff (like time, GPS, etc). It's a lot of values for various different parameters; Olympus even includes corrections for its lenses. And there's a JPEG preview too, the thing you see in the camera when you review a picture. A Pentax pixel shift image includes four different shots. DNG takes that a big further, and includes the metadata that is normally stored in sidecars, like IPTC and so on.

Lr is a parametric editor. ANY time you edit, it stores that info in its database. So if you apply X amount of sharpening to a PS DNG, it stores those instructions in its database. The RAW DNG is still the same. But you can also write that parameter, X amount of sharpening, to the DNG file, and other applications, like Mylio, Photoshop, Bridge, etc can see that and apply the same parameter.

To make a panorama or HDR merge, however, Lr or Ps has to go further, and actually create a new file (ditto for DxO, Macphun and maybe others). That's because it is actually blending information together, and rather than just registering light in a mosaic, it's representing it more dynamically, as explained above. See here for more info: http://protogtech.com/adobe-lightroom/adobe-dng-hdr-format-part-2/

But then that info is left in a new DNG; it's a different type of data, but still includes all sorts of that other stuff the different DNGs used to make it had, like lens info. So you can apply lens corrections. And all sorts of other adjustments, just as you would with a sensor-created RAW. The Adobe engineer joked that since they are closer to RAW, having not been developed, but not mosaic data, they should be called "rares." Pretty apt.
02-29-2016, 03:59 AM   #41
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Happy with the above explanations and relieved I'm not that far besides the point. It seems the LR-generated DNG (after pano or HDR merges) therefore seems to be somewhat less versatile than raw but more than TIFF - would that be a fair statement? I'd still avoid terminology which is potentially misleading such as "layering raws" or "writing a raw file" and stick to the original intent of a raw file as a one-way representation of the data recorded by the camera (sensor, setting, corrections etc.).

If the above is indeed true and without wanting to stir up a storm here, the blurring of distinction between these two distinctly different contents of a DNG file does very little for me. As I'm not a LR/PS user it is not of great importance to me either. This was an educational post though for which I'm very grateful.
02-29-2016, 03:28 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rai93 Quote
I am already enjoying the wonders of LR 6, specifically the part where I paid $142 for a program that doesn't even allow me to layer photos on each other(The regret is real). But despite that I'm having a lot of fun learning LR and since I'm stuck with it I do need another program specifically for layering astrophotography photos to get those star trails/long night shots that I've always wanted.

So now I'm looking between Photoshop Elements, Corel PaintShop Pro X8, and random freeware that I know I'm not going to get. I would prefer a solid program where I can layer the photos in RAW and then port them back into LR for a final adjustment but I don't know enough about either of the latest versions to choose and 3 hours of googling hasn't helped.
I use OnOne's Photo 10 for layered stuff, but it translates the RAW to RGB, and I'm not aware of an alignment features for the layers. It is compatible with LR so your LR investment isn't a throwaway.

Are you sure you couldn't use a program like Easy HDR 3 to stack multiple layers (it will do that in RAW) because I think the guy that wrote the software was doing it for astrophotography purposes and it turned out to also be good for HDR use, so Easy HDR 3 was born. I think it's only about $40 US. It does have auto-alignment and ghost-removal capabilities, too.
03-02-2016, 01:29 PM   #43
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For night/astro-photography, I use DeepSky Stacker primarily. It does more than a typical layering tool can do if you can follow the sometimes less than perfect steps to get an image out of the software. I don't think it'll take RAW (although I think it might have taken the DNG's out of my camera), but I always make sure to have a Tiff at the end so that I can use LR again on it (keep at 16 bits).

Generally though, you'll be hard pressed to find a software that is a RAW developer that does layers too. ACR+Photoshop are about as close as you can get.

As far as budget goes, when I was a student, I made sure to buy software at a student discount. LR used to cost me $75 at that time. A lot of photography software (from bigger companies) has student or education discounts, so always be sure to check or inquire about such things if you think you qualify.
03-02-2016, 05:29 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by emalvick Quote
you'll be hard pressed to find a software that is a RAW developer that does layers too
As mentioned previously, Capture One Pro does both. It's very good.

C1 Local adjustment tools help explains how it works.

Last edited by rawr; 03-02-2016 at 05:41 PM.
03-02-2016, 08:33 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
As mentioned previously, Capture One Pro does both. It's very good.

C1 Local adjustment tools help explains how it works.
I'm only seeing local adjustment, cloning or healing types of layers. Is it possible to stack multiple images in layers and combine them as in astrophotography applications in Capture One?
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