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04-17-2016, 05:54 PM - 1 Like   #1
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Denoising and sharpening K3 files in what order ?

Since I have my (new) K3, I find that I often need to do some mild tweaking because of the noise at higher ISO and, at times, some sharpening is needed ... not much but enough to annoy me.

Anyway, in what order should those two processes be handled?
Sharpen first? Denoising first ?

Thanks !

JP

04-17-2016, 06:03 PM   #2
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Denoise first, so you aren't sharpening the noise and for instance, make artifacts you can't recover from.
04-17-2016, 06:03 PM   #3
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Generally-speaking the two operations are opposites of each other, so it's best not to apply both (in excess). If you have to sharpen, however, do it after reducing noise, preferably when developing your raw file.

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04-17-2016, 06:15 PM   #4
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Noise first, sharpening if needed.

I have light room set to add 15 denoise on import for k-3 files. 25 sharpening.

04-17-2016, 07:08 PM - 1 Like   #5
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Mask first (if your software supports it eg in Lightroom), then denoise, then sharpen.

In terms of PP sequencing, this workflow is handy to note:

Digital Photo Editing Workflow
04-17-2016, 07:19 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Denoise first, so you aren't sharpening the noise and for instance, make artifacts you can't recover from.
QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Generally-speaking the two operations are opposites of each other, so it's best not to apply both (in excess). If you have to sharpen, however, do it after reducing noise, preferably when developing your raw file.
QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Noise first, sharpening if needed.

I have light room set to add 15 denoise on import for k-3 files. 25 sharpening.
Thanks for the help, guys!

I don't have Lightroom but CS5 should suffice.
As for the denoising options, I have a couple: Topaz Denoise (plug-in) and Noiseware Pro (older version).
I am usually quite careful not to overdo things, so I'll follow the advice(s) and do some NR and leave it alone unless it needs some sharpening.

JP
04-17-2016, 07:22 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Mask first (if your software supports it
Certainly this. Then it only sharpens what you want... such as edges rather than the entire image.

04-17-2016, 09:32 PM   #8
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The answer to the the OP question may depend on the post processing software being used.
If using Darktable, it makes no difference in which order you select the various modules, the application order is fixed.
From other responses it would seem that other software may be different.

Cheers,
Terry
04-18-2016, 01:09 AM   #9
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Yes, (output) sharpen as the last operation. I've found that using DCU5 for RAW development for the first steps in the development workflow (covering white balance, exposure, shift, lens corrections) largely removes the need for actively de-noising at the development stage. This is even at the extreme of the range of ISO that I normally use (3200), as DCU5 seems to do the best job of the software I've used for RAW development - not surprising as it's tailored for Pentax cameras. I know it's not favoured or used by many Pentax users due to a reputedly clunky interface, but having come from PDCU4 I find it easy to use. I haven't used Lightroom so can't comment on its RAW development, but DCU5 certainly seems to provide a much less noisy image from RAW than Faststone or RawTherapee. It also applies the in-camera settings on import, which you can then change in software if you so desire. I do the final output sharpening in Faststone as its sharpening tool (and its clone tool) are IMO better than those in Photoshop.
04-18-2016, 01:57 AM   #10
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Okay, i always did sharpen my pictures first before applying a little Denoise (K-5 though). However i usually only rely on ACR sharpener and noise reduction, if needed a little unsharp-mask in photoshop. Are the 3rd party tools (topaz/google nik collection) that much better? Im a noob when it comes to sharpening or noise reduction in post, any tip is highly appreciated
04-18-2016, 02:57 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by quh86 Quote
Are the 3rd party tools (topaz/google nik collection) that much better? Im a noob when it comes to sharpening or noise reduction in post, any tip is highly appreciated
I have Topaz (and the Nik stuff too now, thanks Google!), plus a few other tools. Personally, I find Lightroom does the job adequately enough most times for de-noising and sharpening, particularly when combined with all it's other capabilities (eg masking).
04-18-2016, 10:34 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Mask first (if your software supports it eg in Lightroom), then denoise, then sharpen.

In terms of PP sequencing, this workflow is handy to note:

Digital Photo Editing Workflow
Thanks!
I am reading from this link, where there is another link provided to sharpening, that "sharpening first" ! ??
Anyway, just a quick thought about "masks" ... a high pass (filter) sharpening should do the same ?
Now again, since this site mentions sharpening first ... I suppose that is only when you NEED sharpening but that denoising should still go first?

JP

---------- Post added 04-18-16 at 01:38 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by tduell Quote
The answer to the the OP question may depend on the post processing software being used.
If using Darktable, it makes no difference in which order you select the various modules, the application order is fixed.
From other responses it would seem that other software may be different.

Cheers,
Terry
For info, I use CS5 (Bridge >ACR>open image in CS5) and (when needed) Topaz Denoise (plug-in).
I find that a high pass filter (when needed) is a little more accurate than just plain "unsharp mask" and/or "sharpen".

---------- Post added 04-18-16 at 01:46 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by microlight Quote
Yes, (output) sharpen as the last operation. I've found that using DCU5 for RAW development for the first steps in the development workflow (covering white balance, exposure, shift, lens corrections) largely removes the need for actively de-noising at the development stage. This is even at the extreme of the range of ISO that I normally use (3200), as DCU5 seems to do the best job of the software I've used for RAW development - not surprising as it's tailored for Pentax cameras. I know it's not favoured or used by many Pentax users due to a reputedly clunky interface, but having come from PDCU4 I find it easy to use. I haven't used Lightroom so can't comment on its RAW development, but DCU5 certainly seems to provide a much less noisy image from RAW than Faststone or RawTherapee. It also applies the in-camera settings on import, which you can then change in software if you so desire. I do the final output sharpening in Faststone as its sharpening tool (and its clone tool) are IMO better than those in Photoshop.
I did try out DCU5 provided with the K3 and found that it made the PP job tougher actually !
What I mean is that it immediately applies "presets" for NR (for instance) and I always forget to turn these off when I want to have a "pure" file .... nothing done on it.
On the other hand, when I leave those "presets" do their job then open the file in Photoshop, the images look "weird" (this is my way of interpreting the results ... nothing scientific here as you can tell ) : perhaps too much denoising (loss of details) , I'm not even sure how to explain that. Just "weird".

As for PP flow, I now understand that NR should be first before considering any sharpening.
Personally, there is always some NR to do on the K3 files, much more so than sharpening.
I have asked the order in which those two should be applied because I am still trying to get used to the K3 files (having come from a K5).
04-18-2016, 01:00 PM   #13
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There are photographers who own cameras that still have an AA filter so they can do a small amount of sharpening to correct for it before they do the rest of their PP including the bulk of the global and local sharpening. The NIK suite provides a separate tool for this step, while Lightroom defaults to 25 sharpening when you first open up a RAW file.

But you have a K-3. ☺
04-18-2016, 03:15 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
There are photographers who own cameras that still have an AA filter so they can do a small amount of sharpening to correct for it before they do the rest of their PP including the bulk of the global and local sharpening. The NIK suite provides a separate tool for this step, while Lightroom defaults to 25 sharpening when you first open up a RAW file.

But you have a K-3. ☺
Should I worry then ?
04-18-2016, 03:43 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
Since I have my (new) K3, I find that I often need to do some mild tweaking because of the noise at higher ISO and, at times, some sharpening is needed ... not much but enough to annoy me.

Anyway, in what order should those two processes be handled?
Sharpen first? Denoising first ?

Thanks !

JP
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