DNG V PEF Raw Format

Kim C · 04-29-2016, 12:29 PM

Hi, I'm enjoying my K1 which arrived today but I have come across one problem. Adobe is trying to push everyone toward the cloud. So no further updates will be issued for Photoshop CS6. This hasn't been a problem as it supported all the Pentax PEF formats up to the K3. However, it won't read the ones from the K1. Also been using LR5. Again no support for the K1 and I would need to buy or rent LR6.

However, both will read the files if saved in DNG format in the K1. Has anybody noticed any real difference in saving Pentax files in DNG rather than PEF?

Kim

Adam · 04-29-2016, 12:33 PM

You should always use DNG if you want to maintain compatibility with Adobe. As you correctly observed, DNG files can be opened even if updates for that specific camera model haven't been pushed out

There is no practical difference between the contents of the two formats.

**Oakland Rob** · 04-29-2016, 01:04 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kim C

Hi, I'm enjoying my K1 which arrived today but I have come across one problem. Adobe is trying to push everyone toward the cloud. So no further updates will be issued for Photoshop CS6. This hasn't been a problem as it supported all the Pentax PEF formats up to the K3. However, it won't read the ones from the K1. Also been using LR5. Again no support for the K1 and I would need to buy or rent LR6.

However, both will read the files if saved in DNG format in the K1. Has anybody noticed any real difference in saving Pentax files in DNG rather than PEF?

Kim

I'm not quite understanding. It's the most recent camera available, so no surprise that old applications don't work well with it. Such is life with a digital camera; you need to even update the freeby utility Ricoh provides in order to use it with the K-1. We Pentaxians actually have it pretty good; even with Olympus I've had to wait, and since it didn't do DNG in the camera I had to go through all that conversion to DNG. Ugh.

Meanwhile, Adobe provides a free utilty to create DNGs from PEFs, although why? when you can just shoot a DNG from the camera? I don't think the PEFs are any different in any significant way that a user could see in real life, although I'd qualify that for some of the specialized features: like maybe in camera HDR (if you can even generate a PEF or DNG), and maybe for pixel shift, although my pixel shift DNGs had no material difference to DNGs on my K-3II. And of course there's the issue of sidecar vs embedded metadata, and the extra feature DNG provides for data validation.

And as for "pushing," in your case you need to upgrade anyway. Subscribers have already received Adobe upgrades for Camera RAW for the K-1. But Ps in the Photography Plan is FAR cheaper than what we paid for CS6 Ps or Ps Extended, so that's fortunate.

Rnovo · 04-29-2016, 02:30 PM

If you want to keep PEF convert to DNG in the import dialogue in LR/PS. Or, forget PEF altogether and select DNG in the camera, as said above...same thing.

Darcy · 05-16-2016, 08:56 AM

I have noticed my K-1 DNGs are between 40-45mb vs the PEF is around 25mb.

**Oakland Rob** · 05-19-2016, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Darcy

I have noticed my K-1 DNGs are between 40-45mb vs the PEF is around 25mb.

OK. Is there a question in that? There are tons of threads on this forum about the difference between PEF and DNG if that's what you're interested in. I expect the PEF uses some lossless compression in camera; DNG does not.

Darcy · 05-19-2016, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Oakland Rob

OK. Is there a question in that? There are tons of threads on this forum about the difference between PEF and DNG if that's what you're interested in. I expect the PEF uses some lossless compression in camera; DNG does not.

I was not of my right mind when I posted that. I didn't realize the PEF were crop mode and the DNG were FF.

**microlight** · 05-20-2016, 05:18 AM

When I got my K-3II I noticed that Explorer in Win7x64 no longer displayed PEF thumbnails, and there were some things in DCU5 that PEFs didn't do so well, so I converted to DNG. Makes using Photoshop and ACR easier too.

pete-tarmigan · 05-20-2016, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by Darcy

I was not of my right mind when I posted that. I didn't realize the PEF were crop mode and the DNG were FF.

I don't think they are. You should be able to output either PEF or DNG in both in-camera crop mode and "full" frame mode. Compression isn't the same as cropping.

Nickrs · 05-20-2016, 04:41 PM

I've been using Corel Aftershot Pro v.2.4 (a Lightroom competitor) for quite a while and it has supported both PEF and DNG output from my K3 very nicely, last week Corel released v.3 and now PEF support is broken!! :-( Is there a global conspiracy against PEF?

**Oakland Rob** · 05-21-2016, 07:46 AM

No global conspiracy, but blame Ricoh, not Corel.

PEF is a proprietary format. So are the others used by other manufacturers, like NEFs, CR2, RW2, etc. Why camera makes don't settle on a standard is probably down to some of the supposed benefits of their own raw, which I suspect is nonsense, or just a fear that it would reveal some of their secret sauce. So Corel, Adobe, etc etc have to essentially figure out how to render those raws. And that takes time and resources.

You could use DNG, which for all intents and purposes is the same. And mayb be supported now in Aftershot. Or choose software that gets the PEF conversion out faster.

Nickrs · 05-21-2016, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by Oakland Rob

No global conspiracy, but blame Ricoh, not Corel.

PEF is a proprietary format. So are the others used by other manufacturers, like NEFs, CR2, RW2, etc. Why camera makes don't settle on a standard is probably down to some of the supposed benefits of their own raw, which I suspect is nonsense, or just a fear that it would reveal some of their secret sauce. So Corel, Adobe, etc etc have to essentially figure out how to render those raws. And that takes time and resources.

You could use DNG, which for all intents and purposes is the same. And mayb be supported now in Aftershot. Or choose software that gets the PEF conversion out faster.

Yep, I've migrated to DNG now I've figured out (with help) how to turn PEF off permanently in the K3's User modes. Why Corel Aftershot forgot how to handle PEF files in the change from v2.4 to v.3 beats me, I used to commission software years ago and I'm hope my code writers and testers would have picked up something like this in beta testing.

There is a very interesting entry in Wikipedia addressing RAW format standardization (or lack of), it can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format. The usual caveats regarding anything on Wikipedia apply.

Nick

IchabodCrane · 05-23-2016, 06:38 AM

One more question on PEF vs DNG regarding Lightroom --

Apple Aperture, for some reason, doesn't correctly read the highlight tag in Pentax DNG files but it does read it correctly in Pentax PEF files. The result, on images where the highlight function was used, is PEFs display at the correct brightness in Aperture (and iPhoto presumably) while DNGs are one stop dark. Does anyone know if this is a Pentax problem writing DNGs or an Apple problem reading Pentax DNGs? Corresponding question is whether this issue surfaces in Lightroom as well? I could test myself but would rather not sign up for yet another Lr trial. Thx.

**Oakland Rob** · 05-24-2016, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by IchabodCrane

One more question on PEF vs DNG regarding Lightroom --

Apple Aperture, for some reason, doesn't correctly read the highlight tag in Pentax DNG files but it does read it correctly in Pentax PEF files. The result, on images where the highlight function was used, is PEFs display at the correct brightness in Aperture (and iPhoto presumably) while DNGs are one stop dark. Does anyone know if this is a Pentax problem writing DNGs or an Apple problem reading Pentax DNGs? Corresponding question is whether this issue surfaces in Lightroom as well? I could test myself but would rather not sign up for yet another Lr trial. Thx.

Is that the "DynamicRangeExpansion" tag?aka "highlight correction"? I would guess that Lr would ignore it. Isn't it just an underexposure and then a shadow lift or something in creating a JPEG? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I thought with RAW the point is to ignore that (although of course once exposure is set -1 or something you're stuck with that).

04-29-2016, 12:29 PM	#1
Kim C Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Lincoln, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 229	DNG V PEF Raw Format Hi, I'm enjoying my K1 which arrived today but I have come across one problem. Adobe is trying to push everyone toward the cloud. So no further updates will be issued for Photoshop CS6. This hasn't been a problem as it supported all the Pentax PEF formats up to the K3. However, it won't read the ones from the K1. Also been using LR5. Again no support for the K1 and I would need to buy or rent LR6. However, both will read the files if saved in DNG format in the K1. Has anybody noticed any real difference in saving Pentax files in DNG rather than PEF? Kim

04-29-2016, 12:33 PM	#2
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,593	You should always use DNG if you want to maintain compatibility with Adobe. As you correctly observed, DNG files can be opened even if updates for that specific camera model haven't been pushed out There is no practical difference between the contents of the two formats. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
K-3 DNG RAW File Format	ddjchemist	Pentax K-3 & K-3 II	2	12-31-2014 06:01 PM
645Z - RAW: Pentax PEF or DNG?	uintaangler	Pentax Medium Format	12	11-16-2014 03:10 PM
PEF versus DNG RAW format	Rob1000	Pentax K-3 & K-3 II	2	10-22-2014 02:02 PM
PEF or DNG file format	consiglieri	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	12	11-11-2010 10:13 AM
K200d raw format: dng vs. pef	tibbitts	Pentax DSLR Discussion	7	03-04-2009 11:01 AM

04-29-2016, 01:04 PM - 1 Like	#3
Oakland Rob Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Bay Area California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 798	Originally posted by Kim C Hi, I'm enjoying my K1 which arrived today but I have come across one problem. Adobe is trying to push everyone toward the cloud. So no further updates will be issued for Photoshop CS6. This hasn't been a problem as it supported all the Pentax PEF formats up to the K3. However, it won't read the ones from the K1. Also been using LR5. Again no support for the K1 and I would need to buy or rent LR6. However, both will read the files if saved in DNG format in the K1. Has anybody noticed any real difference in saving Pentax files in DNG rather than PEF? Kim I'm not quite understanding. It's the most recent camera available, so no surprise that old applications don't work well with it. Such is life with a digital camera; you need to even update the freeby utility Ricoh provides in order to use it with the K-1. We Pentaxians actually have it pretty good; even with Olympus I've had to wait, and since it didn't do DNG in the camera I had to go through all that conversion to DNG. Ugh. Meanwhile, Adobe provides a free utilty to create DNGs from PEFs, although why? when you can just shoot a DNG from the camera? I don't think the PEFs are any different in any significant way that a user could see in real life, although I'd qualify that for some of the specialized features: like maybe in camera HDR (if you can even generate a PEF or DNG), and maybe for pixel shift, although my pixel shift DNGs had no material difference to DNGs on my K-3II. And of course there's the issue of sidecar vs embedded metadata, and the extra feature DNG provides for data validation. And as for "pushing," in your case you need to upgrade anyway. Subscribers have already received Adobe upgrades for Camera RAW for the K-1. But Ps in the Photography Plan is FAR cheaper than what we paid for CS6 Ps or Ps Extended, so that's fortunate.

04-29-2016, 02:30 PM	#4
Rnovo Closed Account Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 415	If you want to keep PEF convert to DNG in the import dialogue in LR/PS. Or, forget PEF altogether and select DNG in the camera, as said above...same thing.

05-16-2016, 08:56 AM	#5
Darcy Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Edmonton Photos: Gallery Posts: 63	I have noticed my K-1 DNGs are between 40-45mb vs the PEF is around 25mb.

05-19-2016, 03:20 PM	#6
Oakland Rob Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Bay Area California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 798	Originally posted by Darcy I have noticed my K-1 DNGs are between 40-45mb vs the PEF is around 25mb. OK. Is there a question in that? There are tons of threads on this forum about the difference between PEF and DNG if that's what you're interested in. I expect the PEF uses some lossless compression in camera; DNG does not.

05-19-2016, 08:19 PM	#7
Darcy Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Edmonton Photos: Gallery Posts: 63	Originally posted by Oakland Rob OK. Is there a question in that? There are tons of threads on this forum about the difference between PEF and DNG if that's what you're interested in. I expect the PEF uses some lossless compression in camera; DNG does not. I was not of my right mind when I posted that. I didn't realize the PEF were crop mode and the DNG were FF.

05-20-2016, 05:18 AM	#8
microlight Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,129	When I got my K-3II I noticed that Explorer in Win7x64 no longer displayed PEF thumbnails, and there were some things in DCU5 that PEFs didn't do so well, so I converted to DNG. Makes using Photoshop and ACR easier too.

05-20-2016, 06:09 AM	#9
pete-tarmigan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Conception Bay South, New-fun-land Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,272	Originally posted by Darcy I was not of my right mind when I posted that. I didn't realize the PEF were crop mode and the DNG were FF. I don't think they are. You should be able to output either PEF or DNG in both in-camera crop mode and "full" frame mode. Compression isn't the same as cropping.

05-20-2016, 04:41 PM	#10
Nickrs Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: "The Green Desert" Photos: Albums Posts: 175	I've been using Corel Aftershot Pro v.2.4 (a Lightroom competitor) for quite a while and it has supported both PEF and DNG output from my K3 very nicely, last week Corel released v.3 and now PEF support is broken!! :-( Is there a global conspiracy against PEF?

05-21-2016, 07:46 AM	#11
Oakland Rob Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Bay Area California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 798	No global conspiracy, but blame Ricoh, not Corel. PEF is a proprietary format. So are the others used by other manufacturers, like NEFs, CR2, RW2, etc. Why camera makes don't settle on a standard is probably down to some of the supposed benefits of their own raw, which I suspect is nonsense, or just a fear that it would reveal some of their secret sauce. So Corel, Adobe, etc etc have to essentially figure out how to render those raws. And that takes time and resources. You could use DNG, which for all intents and purposes is the same. And mayb be supported now in Aftershot. Or choose software that gets the PEF conversion out faster.

05-21-2016, 08:43 AM	#12
Nickrs Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: "The Green Desert" Photos: Albums Posts: 175	Originally posted by Oakland Rob No global conspiracy, but blame Ricoh, not Corel. PEF is a proprietary format. So are the others used by other manufacturers, like NEFs, CR2, RW2, etc. Why camera makes don't settle on a standard is probably down to some of the supposed benefits of their own raw, which I suspect is nonsense, or just a fear that it would reveal some of their secret sauce. So Corel, Adobe, etc etc have to essentially figure out how to render those raws. And that takes time and resources. You could use DNG, which for all intents and purposes is the same. And mayb be supported now in Aftershot. Or choose software that gets the PEF conversion out faster. Yep, I've migrated to DNG now I've figured out (with help) how to turn PEF off permanently in the K3's User modes. Why Corel Aftershot forgot how to handle PEF files in the change from v2.4 to v.3 beats me, I used to commission software years ago and I'm hope my code writers and testers would have picked up something like this in beta testing. There is a very interesting entry in Wikipedia addressing RAW format standardization (or lack of), it can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format. The usual caveats regarding anything on Wikipedia apply. Nick

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-23-2016, 06:38 AM	#13
IchabodCrane Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,728	One more question on PEF vs DNG regarding Lightroom -- Apple Aperture, for some reason, doesn't correctly read the highlight tag in Pentax DNG files but it does read it correctly in Pentax PEF files. The result, on images where the highlight function was used, is PEFs display at the correct brightness in Aperture (and iPhoto presumably) while DNGs are one stop dark. Does anyone know if this is a Pentax problem writing DNGs or an Apple problem reading Pentax DNGs? Corresponding question is whether this issue surfaces in Lightroom as well? I could test myself but would rather not sign up for yet another Lr trial. Thx.

05-24-2016, 09:59 AM	#14
Oakland Rob Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Bay Area California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 798	Originally posted by IchabodCrane One more question on PEF vs DNG regarding Lightroom -- Apple Aperture, for some reason, doesn't correctly read the highlight tag in Pentax DNG files but it does read it correctly in Pentax PEF files. The result, on images where the highlight function was used, is PEFs display at the correct brightness in Aperture (and iPhoto presumably) while DNGs are one stop dark. Does anyone know if this is a Pentax problem writing DNGs or an Apple problem reading Pentax DNGs? Corresponding question is whether this issue surfaces in Lightroom as well? I could test myself but would rather not sign up for yet another Lr trial. Thx. Is that the "DynamicRangeExpansion" tag?aka "highlight correction"? I would guess that Lr would ignore it. Isn't it just an underexposure and then a shadow lift or something in creating a JPEG? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I thought with RAW the point is to ignore that (although of course once exposure is set -1 or something you're stuck with that).