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04-20-2017, 09:27 PM   #1
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Landscape Panorama Advice.

So, today I did the following (from a favorable lookout point);

- Mounted K-1 in portrait mode atop of a tripod (using L plate)
- Before panning to the right, each shot in portrait mode was taken in bracketing mode using wireless remote
- Then pan to right and take next 3 bracketed shots before once again panning and so on so forth.

Time to edit, how should i approach this? Should i HDR merge each portrait shot FIRST and then stitch together, OR... should i stitch each corresponding exposure together first and then try to HDR merge after?

Cheers,

Bruce

04-20-2017, 09:37 PM   #2
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I would say merge each corresponding exposure first, and then merge each exposure panorama after. My take is so that the pictures will be the same exposure when stitching and not have to worry about different brightness.


04-20-2017, 09:46 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fcsnt54 Quote
I would say merge each corresponding exposure first, and then merge each exposure panorama after. My take is so that the pictures will be the same exposure when stitching and not have to worry about different brightness.
That's what i figured also, cheers.
04-20-2017, 11:48 PM   #4
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Doing HDR process on each shot first may result in different exposures on each frame.

Doing pano stitch first may result in different stitching on each of the frames to be HDR'ed.
You might want to use a specific pano stitch geometry and see that works.

I use Hugin (free) and it saves the stitching parameters, which can be applied to all the different exposure stitches.
The I combine the pano stiched frames in HDR (or exposure blend)

04-21-2017, 12:28 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Doing HDR process on each shot first may result in different exposures on each frame.

Doing pano stitch first may result in different stitching on each of the frames to be HDR'ed.
+1
So whatever you do first use the same settings/controllpoints/... on all images.
What exposure mode did you use for bracketing? If you where in Av and not M you might have different exposures to beginn with.

Also I find when doing panos it is usually easier to expose for the brightest area (frame with the sun) and use those settings for all other frames.
The other pictures will be a little underexposed, but I usually can recover plenty details in post processing when shooting raw. This way I save myself the trouble of matching all exposures before stitching. (If you get too much noise you can shoot every picture multible times and combine them with gimp or photoshop after pp to reduce noise without changing the exposure but I never found this to be necessary.)
Another important thing in my opinion is: Don't use AWB for panos.
04-21-2017, 02:08 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Doing HDR process on each shot first may result in different exposures on each frame.

Doing pano stitch first may result in different stitching on each of the frames to be HDR'ed.
You might want to use a specific pano stitch geometry and see that works.

I use Hugin (free) and it saves the stitching parameters, which can be applied to all the different exposure stitches.
The I combine the pano stiched frames in HDR (or exposure blend)
QuoteOriginally posted by othar Quote
+1
So whatever you do first use the same settings/controllpoints/... on all images.
What exposure mode did you use for bracketing? If you where in Av and not M you might have different exposures to beginn with.

Also I find when doing panos it is usually easier to expose for the brightest area (frame with the sun) and use those settings for all other frames.
The other pictures will be a little underexposed, but I usually can recover plenty details in post processing when shooting raw. This way I save myself the trouble of matching all exposures before stitching. (If you get too much noise you can shoot every picture multible times and combine them with gimp or photoshop after pp to reduce noise without changing the exposure but I never found this to be necessary.)
Another important thing in my opinion is: Don't use AWB for panos.
Thanks for the advice guys.

I am a complete beginner when it comes to panoramas, but I did the following;

1) AWB off, set to cloudy as it was a cloudy overcast day, this applied to all shots
2) Once focus on the first shot was determined, I then toggled to manual focus, so that as I was panning the focus point was the same throughout each panning shot (ie I wanted to keep blurry things consistent throughout the shot at the same perceived distance etc.
3) Firing was wireless remote each shot before panning.
4) bracketing was +/- 1ev i think...

What i've discovered is, now that LR has successfully stitched each exposure value into a panorama (155mb files by the way!), it can't actually process the HDR, despite leaving LR stitch settings the same throughout (spherical, auto crop etc). I'm guessing stitching 3 155mb files together using whatever panorama stitch algorithm it chose for each exposure is too much for it...

So it looks like I need to use external software, hopefully free as I have already paid for LR and PS and some topaz plugins of late!

Hugins looks like a good stitcher, I also have experience with ICE, I'm not sure what Hugins has over ICE, perhaps those stitch parameters are really important?

Perhaps I need to purchase some decent HDR stitch software like Photomatix for this kinda stitching..?

Thoughts?

Right now I think i'll try the trial of Photomatix and see if it even can merge the 3 stitches that LR created...

Cheers,

Bruce
04-21-2017, 04:14 AM   #7
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NikEfex is free and comes with the Nik HDR. (I had to pay abour $130 for mine just a few years ago.. )


Hugin is much more powerful than ICE.
As far as I've tried, I also find the ICE file saving to be lossy even with the highest JPG IQ setting.
04-21-2017, 06:19 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
NikEfex is free and comes with the Nik HDR. (I had to pay abour $130 for mine just a few years ago.. )


Hugin is much more powerful than ICE.
As far as I've tried, I also find the ICE file saving to be lossy even with the highest JPG IQ setting.
QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Doing HDR process on each shot first may result in different exposures on each frame.

Doing pano stitch first may result in different stitching on each of the frames to be HDR'ed.
You might want to use a specific pano stitch geometry and see that works.

I use Hugin (free) and it saves the stitching parameters, which can be applied to all the different exposure stitches.
The I combine the pano stiched frames in HDR (or exposure blend)
Trying Hugin now, it doesn't want to take the raw DNG files... is there a addon or plugin needed for it to process raw files? It really needs to be raw and not jpegs as the intention is to take the whole stitched image to LR afterwards etc.

04-21-2017, 06:55 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Hugins looks like a good stitcher, I also have experience with ICE, I'm not sure what Hugins has over ICE, perhaps those stitch parameters are really important?
ICE gives good results from the beginning, but if something goes wrong you have limited to no options to correct errors. In Hugin you can set controllpoints by hand and you can exclude areas from certain pictures (i.e. person appearing in some pictures and you don't want him/her appearing in the final image) to influence the outcome.
QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Trying Hugin now, it doesn't want to take the raw DNG files... is there a addon or plugin needed for it to process raw files? It really needs to be raw and not jpegs as the intention is to take the whole stitched image to LR afterwards etc.
You can use TIFF files if you want to preserve pp possibilities or you stitch the finished jpegs.
QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
1) AWB off, set to cloudy as it was a cloudy overcast day, this applied to all shots
2) Once focus on the first shot was determined, I then toggled to manual focus, so that as I was panning the focus point was the same throughout each panning shot (ie I wanted to keep blurry things consistent throughout the shot at the same perceived distance etc.
3) Firing was wireless remote each shot before panning.
4) bracketing was +/- 1ev i think...
What exposure mode did you use (Av, Tv, TAv, M, B,...)? M would be preferred to get matching images exposurewise for stitching, altough most stitching programs can compensate slight differences.

Last edited by othar; 04-21-2017 at 07:03 AM.
04-21-2017, 07:04 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Thanks for the advice guys.



I am a complete beginner when it comes to panoramas, but I did the following;



1) AWB off, set to cloudy as it was a cloudy overcast day, this applied to all shots

2) Once focus on the first shot was determined, I then toggled to manual focus, so that as I was panning the focus point was the same throughout each panning shot (ie I wanted to keep blurry things consistent throughout the shot at the same perceived distance etc.

3) Firing was wireless remote each shot before panning.

4) bracketing was +/- 1ev i think...



What i've discovered is, now that LR has successfully stitched each exposure value into a panorama (155mb files by the way!), it can't actually process the HDR, despite leaving LR stitch settings the same throughout (spherical, auto crop etc). I'm guessing stitching 3 155mb files together using whatever panorama stitch algorithm it chose for each exposure is too much for it...



So it looks like I need to use external software, hopefully free as I have already paid for LR and PS and some topaz plugins of late!



Hugins looks like a good stitcher, I also have experience with ICE, I'm not sure what Hugins has over ICE, perhaps those stitch parameters are really important?



Perhaps I need to purchase some decent HDR stitch software like Photomatix for this kinda stitching..?



Thoughts?



Right now I think i'll try the trial of Photomatix and see if it even can merge the 3 stitches that LR created...



Cheers,



Bruce


Ive ran through that issue before. To finish the hdr of the pano, photoshop will work and will do the raw files.


04-21-2017, 02:30 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by othar Quote
ICE gives good results from the beginning, but if something goes wrong you have limited to no options to correct errors. In Hugin you can set controllpoints by hand and you can exclude areas from certain pictures (i.e. person appearing in some pictures and you don't want him/her appearing in the final image) to influence the outcome.

You can use TIFF files if you want to preserve pp possibilities or you stitch the finished jpegs.

What exposure mode did you use (Av, Tv, TAv, M, B,...)? M would be preferred to get matching images exposurewise for stitching, altough most stitching programs can compensate slight differences.
Yeah it was M mode. I'm not even sure it will be a nice Panorama, focus doesn't look great tbh, but just want to practice this side of things for when I do get a nice capture.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fcsnt54 Quote
Ive ran through that issue before. To finish the hdr of the pano, photoshop will work and will do the raw files.
Maybe yer right.



So, I have tried exporting all the DNG files in LR to being TIFF files, and then using Hugins. Exposure set 1 stitched successfully, exposure set 2 (using the same Lens type (Panoramic Cylindrical) and it's presented very different post process, the whole picture is quite heavily slanted etc...

Bare in mind each of these shots were taken with a wireless remote within seconds of the first shot being taken, I am not sure how the same positioning but different ev value creates quite a variance in stitching performance issues... With Hugins do I need to save the control points for the next exposure pics to be loaded in for the SAME exact stitch? How do I manage this?

I might try LR's Panoramic stitch again, and this time try using photoshop to merge into HDR...

EDIT: Shortly after writing this I googled and found this link with a guy in a similar position to me;

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/hugin-ptx/gQHA6aVy5kE

I couldn't figure out how to apply a template or use preexisting control points for 6 new photos, so I just dragged all 18 tiff files into Hugins and it detected a stack of different exposures and applied and fused them together! Neat...

Working on the panoramic hdr tiff file in LR now for further tweaking...

EDIT EDIT: Well... after spending around 5mins in LR adjusting the fused Hugins 18 tiff panorama file, I then decided to see the contrast/difference between an edited version (similar LR effects applied) to just the 6 zero exposure shot panorama (ie the set stitched without +/- ev values).
I have to say this version is better (imo) than the Hugins fused HDR version, mainly down to less visual distortion in the horizon (less fisheye affect). It seems that when 'stacking' in Hugins the risk of perspective issues increase over a single non stacked set of files made panoramic.
The two are very close in terms of overall exposure, seeing a similar amount of cloud and shadow/dark areas made brighter etc, so I guess my bracketing in this case wasn't 'drastic' enough i.e. with enough LR alterations I could get the zero exposure set to look almost identical to the hdr version.

I don't know if it's possible with the K-1 to get 5 bracketing mode, or whether I am stuck with just 3, and perhaps next time need to increase the exposure range to gain more dynamics.

Anyway, here's the NON Stacked/Fused panorama (I decided to throw it up into my flickr even tho I don't think it's that great), gives you an idea of the scene I was working on. The sky overcast and the valley quite dark and shaded below.



I'll be back up that way in a week or so, I'll try again.

Last edited by BruceBanner; 04-21-2017 at 03:33 PM.
04-21-2017, 03:24 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Yeah it was M mode. I'm not even sure it will be a nice Panorama, focus doesn't look great tbh, but just want to practice this side of things for when I do get a nice capture.



Maybe yer right.



So, I have tried exporting all the DNG files in LR to being TIFF files, and then using Hugins. Exposure set 1 stitched successfully, exposure set 2 (using the same Lens type (Panoramic Cylindrical) and it's presented very different post process, the whole picture is quite heavily slanted etc...

Bare in mind each of these shots were taken with a wireless remote within seconds of the first shot being taken, I am not sure how the same positioning but different ev value creates quite a variance in stitching performance issues... With Hugins do I need to save the control points for the next exposure pics to be loaded in for the SAME exact stitch? How do I manage this?

I might try LR's Panoramic stitch again, and this time try using photoshop to merge into HDR...

EDIT: Shortly after writing this I googled and found this link with a guy in a similar position to me;

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/hugin-ptx/gQHA6aVy5kE

I couldn't figure out how to apply a template or use preexisting control points for 6 new photos, so I just dragged all 18 tiff files into Hugins and it detected a stack of different exposures and applied and fused them together! Neat...

Working on the panoramic hdr tiff file in LR now for further tweaking...


Thats great to hear, sounds soooo much easier then photoshop. How are you enjoying hugins? Is it a standalone program?


04-21-2017, 03:38 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fcsnt54 Quote
Thats great to hear, sounds soooo much easier then photoshop. How are you enjoying hugins? Is it a standalone program?
It seems fine, it's free and standalone so definitely worth a try. My failure with it I think is from my own faults in what I grabbed this time round. I'm pretty new to trying to take nice landscape pics, so I can't really rate its usefulness just yet. When making a HDR I've used Photomatix before and enjoyed the freedom of being able to choose the kinda 'hdr blend' it offered... I would still like to try (with Hugins or some other panorama stitch program) to use the same stitch points of differently exposed images so that I can then take those 3-5 differently exposed images to a dedicated HDR tool.
04-21-2017, 10:42 PM   #14
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Can you try doing the HDRs of each shot first, and saving them as 32-bit TIFFs without additional adjustment, then stitch those in Hugin, and afterwards adjust the panorama for highlight recovery or whatever HDR processing you want?
04-21-2017, 10:50 PM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote
Can you try doing the HDRs of each shot first, and saving them as 32-bit TIFFs without additional adjustment, then stitch those in Hugin, and afterwards adjust the panorama for highlight recovery or whatever HDR processing you want?
Yeah I thought about doing that also, generally I'm just intrigued how people who are really into Landscape photography handle this process, is what I've done generally a bit of a 'no no' and juts concentrate on a stitch and good exposure first time round etc.
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