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10-19-2017, 07:05 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Your processed files are yours as are your negatives. They are not stored on the cloud. That's what confuses people. Two different models. The original (now classic) CC is a model where the software distribution and license checking is on a "cloud" and the software you run is local and so are your files ( you can store them anywhere you want actually ). The new model (not replacing the old model as I understand it ) allows a different model of storing your files online - but I can't say much about that model. I would not be interested in it. I also tend to do most of my processing in DXO and only use lightroom as a catalog - I should likely ditch adobe and get a different catalog software program. I have found I spend more on DXO yearly than I do on adobe BTW.
I don't think anyone is confused. The problem is that if I have spent time with an image adjusting it in Lightroom, using their paid subscription model, and then let it go, if I decide I want to tweak something on one of my RAW images, I am back to square one. Yes, I still have the original raw file and I could open it anything from RAW Therapee to Gimp to whatever, but it isn't simply a matter of making a tweak -- adjusting a crop or bumping a slider any more. It is starting from the ground up to try to get to the same spot I was already at. Do that with many images and you will be frustrated.

10-19-2017, 07:05 AM - 1 Like   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My current download speed from the web is 4.7 Mbps and upload speed is .47 Mbps and that is the fastest service that I can get where I live. The idea of storing stuff in the cloud just doesn't work in many rural settings.
If you use the classic version of CC you never upload files to the cloud - that offering is mostly misnamed. The subscription license server is on the internet and you software is distributed via download from the internet but nothing is running anywhere outside your computer other than the license check. Your files are stored where you want - on your own drive, on a cloud drive, etc.

The new offering may be useful for people who use chromebooks or other low cpu platforms if implemented correctly but higher bandwidth will be needed and only time will tell if this model is at all viable. Personally I think in well connected parts of the world it may well work reasonably but it will be a long time before it will supplant the first model listed above.
10-19-2017, 07:07 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
If you use the classic version of CC you never upload files to the cloud - that offering is mostly misnamed. The subscription license server is on the internet and you software is distributed via download from the internet but nothing is running anywhere outside your computer other than the license check. Your files are stored where you want - on your own drive, on a cloud drive, etc.

The new offering may be useful for people who use chromebooks or other low cpu platforms if implemented correctly but higher bandwidth will be needed and only time will tell if this model is at all viable. Personally I think in well connected parts of the world it may well work reasonably but it will be a long time before it will supplant the first model listed above.
I understand that too, but even the process of downloading Lightroom will take a couple of hours. I'd far rather have a disk to install it with.
10-19-2017, 07:09 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't think anyone is confused. The problem is that if I have spent time with an image adjusting it in Lightroom, using their paid subscription model, and then let it go, if I decide I want to tweak something on one of my RAW images, I am back to square one. Yes, I still have the original raw file and I could open it anything from RAW Therapee to Gimp to whatever, but it isn't simply a matter of making a tweak -- adjusting a crop or bumping a slider any more. It is starting from the ground up to try to get to the same spot I was already at. Do that with many images and you will be frustrated.
You are not confused. You are missing people who are saying "I don't have the bandwidth to upload and download my files to the cloud." Those are the people this comment was aimed at. Your point is real. But I again turn to film. When I wanted darkroom adjustments made to a print - I had to pay again or go into the darkroom which I either owned or rented. Digital tools are our darkroom - we pay for them - if bessler stopped making Enlargers and said I had to rent space from their corporate dark room I might have freaked out and switched brands - which is what people are saying. I have no frustration with that. I do however want to point out that these costs are so small in comparison to the costs born by photographers in the past that it is somewhat odd to see the passion around this.

10-19-2017, 07:34 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Quote: indefinitely adverb

1. In a manner that is not definite.

In vernacular English the common sense is "without foreseeable end".
I completely agree that when Adobe made their statement about stand alone LR, they had no defined end planned, but now they have made it definite. Now they foresee the end.

Oh well, enough semantics.

QuoteQuote:
Tool compatibility for DNG in Adobe product is not fully reliable for other than Adobe-generated DNG and even then backward compatibility depends on how the DNG was made. (DNG is not intrinsically source or backward lenient.) Such is easily demonstrated by attempting to import a Pentax HDR DNG into any version of Lightroom. The exact extent of backward support for various DNG target versions and/or ACR versions is poorly defined and reportedly camera specific. Go figure.

If Ricoh/Pentax continues with DNG 1.2.0.0 as its backward target and also supports the optional embedded profiles, compatibility to most versions of Lightroom should remain good*. Even better would be if compatible camera/lens profiles continue to be available through download or the DNG Converter utility. With any luck, the format for .acp files themselves will remain fairly static and backdoor access to new profiles will continue to be an option.
No argument from me. You clearly know more about this than I or the majority of those who have chimed in.

QuoteQuote:
As for Chicken Little...
The Chicken Little reference was NOT intended for you, but rather for those who still think that they will be forced to use the cloud for image storage, or will lose their photos or edits or some other calamity. If they would take the time to explore some of the knowledgeable bloggers (Matt Kloskowski, Tim Gray, and Laura Shoe come to mind), they might understand that the subscription version of LR is being renamed and that it will still be available in combination with Photoshop for the same price as before (subject to change, of course). And LR Classic does not force the use of the cloud for anything other than software updates. It is still intended for those that use a hard drive-centric system.

As for as your reasons for objecting to the subscription model, I have no issue with that. We all have to do what we can afford and agree to philosophically. I, myself, made a hedge against the potential for Adobe pricing their service beyond what I am willing to pay by purchasing and learning to use On1 Photo Raw 2017. However, like so many other things, their introductory price was not the whole story. Their 2018 upgrade costs more than I paid for 2017.
10-19-2017, 07:36 AM - 2 Likes   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
You are not confused. You are missing people who are saying "I don't have the bandwidth to upload and download my files to the cloud." Those are the people this comment was aimed at. Your point is real. But I again turn to film. When I wanted darkroom adjustments made to a print - I had to pay again or go into the darkroom which I either owned or rented. Digital tools are our darkroom - we pay for them - if bessler stopped making Enlargers and said I had to rent space from their corporate dark room I might have freaked out and switched brands - which is what people are saying. I have no frustration with that. I do however want to point out that these costs are so small in comparison to the costs born by photographers in the past that it is somewhat odd to see the passion around this.
Any time you switch your model of distribution, some folks will be happy and some upset. If you are a person who uses the full spectrum of Adobe products -- Premiere, Photoshop, and Lightroom -- then this is a crazy good deal. If, on the other hand, you buy elements and lightroom every five to six years, then it isn't such a good deal.

The real question is why they are stopping selling free standing licenses for Lightroom. The answer to me is that it is simply a money grab -- Adobe's attempt to get people (like me) to pay their fair share for stuff they don't really want.
10-19-2017, 07:47 AM   #82
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Like many of you I'm disappointed in Adobe's decision but not particularly surprised. The incredible rise in profits and share price of Adobe since moving to the subscription model for it's other products was the writing on the wall. As others have pointed out those of us who will actually follow through and leave Adobe will have little impact on their bottom line and are considered acceptable losses. I for one won't move to a subscription model. I have On1 -- I guess it's time to learn it and use it more than as a plug-in. With Black Friday around the corner maybe we'll see some specials on Capture 1 or some of the other editors. LR 6 and CS 6 will work for a few years (most likely until Microsoft introduces an operating system with which they are not compatible) so there is time for the other players to improve their products and for me to transition away from Adobe.


Make no mistake though -- once Adobe is entirely subscription based, and the user base locked in -- you will see price increases. I give it 18-24 months before you get the first press release that begins "We have held the line on pricing for our loyal customers for the last x years but circumstances now force us to make a "small" adjustment to our pricing model to reflect current economic realities." I guarantee in 5 years time you'll have seen at least 2 price increases and you'll probably be lucky to be paying $15 to $20/month or maybe you'll be paying the same $10/month but it will only be for Lightroom or for Photoshop.
10-19-2017, 08:28 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tas Quote
I would like to point out that whilst you own [ON1] in perpetuity, they have been doing program updates every year. The cost is usually between $99-$119 for the full program and about $80 for an upgrade from the previous version.
Thanks for your review of ON1... I've been intrigued by it for quite a while, and with the new developments from Adobe, I'm now considering switch. Question for you as an experienced user; are the updates typically vital and worth the upgrade price? For LR, I usually updated every-other version until it went to subscription, for example.

10-19-2017, 08:37 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by travelswsage Quote
Like many of you I'm disappointed in Adobe's decision but not particularly surprised. The incredible rise in profits and share price of Adobe since moving to the subscription model for it's other products was the writing on the wall. As others have pointed out those of us who will actually follow through and leave Adobe will have little impact on their bottom line and are considered acceptable losses. I for one won't move to a subscription model. I have On1 -- I guess it's time to learn it and use it more than as a plug-in. With Black Friday around the corner maybe we'll see some specials on Capture 1 or some of the other editors. LR 6 and CS 6 will work for a few years (most likely until Microsoft introduces an operating system with which they are not compatible) so there is time for the other players to improve their products and for me to transition away from Adobe.


Make no mistake though -- once Adobe is entirely subscription based, and the user base locked in -- you will see price increases. I give it 18-24 months before you get the first press release that begins "We have held the line on pricing for our loyal customers for the last x years but circumstances now force us to make a "small" adjustment to our pricing model to reflect current economic realities." I guarantee in 5 years time you'll have seen at least 2 price increases and you'll probably be lucky to be paying $15 to $20/month or maybe you'll be paying the same $10/month but it will only be for Lightroom or for Photoshop.
Exactly.

From Adobe's standpoint, they are renting 2000 dollars worth of software with up to the minute updates for 10 dollars a month. On the other hand, they really are locking people in and once they have fully established it, they will be able to increase their rates with impunity.

What is your hobby worth? 120 a year? 240 a year? 300 a year? When you say it in monthly amounts -- 15 or 20 dollars -- it doesn't sound like so much, but when you quantify what it is per year and the fact that there is no convenient stopping place, it really will add up.
10-19-2017, 08:43 AM   #85
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And just to stir the pot a bit more - how can I resist? - but lest us not forget who Adobe is - the company that brought us Flash - historically one of the buggiest and most exploited attack vectors of hackers for many years. These were some of the reasons why Apple chose not to support Flash on their devices.

(and yes, for the record, Adobe bought out Macromedia, who originally produced Flash - was LR someone else's product first?)

Last edited by clickclick; 10-19-2017 at 09:23 AM.
10-19-2017, 09:12 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by jcdoss Quote
Thanks for your review of ON1... I've been intrigued by it for quite a while, and with the new developments from Adobe, I'm now considering switch. Question for you as an experienced user; are the updates typically vital and worth the upgrade price? For LR, I usually updated every-other version until it went to subscription, for example.
My personal take, so far, is that the 2018 update is worth the cost. Note that ON1 also came out with intermediate updates this year that added capabilities. These updates were included as part of the original purchase of ON1 Photo Raw 2017. They typically have at least one intermediate update per year. In addition, each year they typically provide "goodies" to their customers who have kept current with the paid updates. These "goodies" consist of things like presets provided by their gurus and mini-courses in how to do things, especially in how to use the new capabilities in each update. I haven't found the majority of the presets useful for my needs, but there were a couple that I made use of. Also, the latest update to ON1 included a plug-in for LR to aid in the migration of your LR "Collection" structure into an ON1 "Album" structure. There are currently some limitations to what it does (such as not acting as a sync conduit to allow migrating continuing LR work into ON1), but when you finally flip the switch on the migration and move completely to ON1, you'll have the current LR Collection structure duplicated in ON1.

As I noted earlier, I purchased ON1 in anticipation of a move like this from Adobe. I'm also currently taking a course in ON1 to help me get up to speed more quickly. So far, I'm impressed,

Last edited by subsea; 10-19-2017 at 10:27 AM.
10-19-2017, 12:37 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by lsimpkins Quote
...This is a widely believed fallacy. What will happen is that you will still have access to the Library Module which uses your Catalog, which resides on your hard drive. You will no longer have access to the Develop Module to make new edits on existing or new images. Other modules will similarly become unusable.
Thanks for the assessment of what "will happen" based on what currently happens. Out of curiosity, what does the current CC do when it cannot phone home to confirm a paid-up subscription (i.e. no Internet)? Does it inactivate all but the Library module? This is an honest question, not trolling.

In regards to things like catalog location...If I were in product planning at Adobe on the LR Classic team, I would anticipate that the product goals would be to move the full catalog and heavy processing load functionality (e.g. search) onto the cloud (huge benefits in regards to security and performance) teamed with an intelligent local cache of catalog entries to support Develop and certain display tasks (e.g. real-time edit-in response). I would also gate features in such a way as to strongly encourage primary cloud storage. Just my opinion.


Steve
10-19-2017, 12:52 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by travelswsage Quote
LR 6 and CS 6 will work for a few years (most likely until Microsoft introduces an operating system with which they are not compatible)
That very thought went through my head yesterday. Many of my favorite tools, including a few fairly expense ones, simply quit working due to OS changes. I am fairly confident that many tools that I have used since pretty much forever will cease to work at some point courtesy of a Windows 10 enhancement. That is one reason why I remain on Win 7 for critical path stuff like bookkeeping, professional tools, and image processing. I also have an XP box for I need a native DOS environment of things like legacy versions of Visio that died with the migration to Win 7. Fortunately, I have a hacked driver for my Nikon scanner that works on Win7-64.


Steve
10-19-2017, 01:02 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Thanks for the assessment of what "will happen" based on what currently happens. Out of curiosity, what does the current CC do when it cannot phone home to confirm a paid-up subscription (i.e. no Internet)? Does it inactivate all but the Library module? This is an honest question, not trolling.

In regards to things like catalog location...If I were in product planning at Adobe on the LR Classic team, I would anticipate that the product goals would be to move the full catalog and heavy processing load functionality (e.g. search) onto the cloud (huge benefits in regards to security and performance) teamed with an intelligent local cache of catalog entries to support Develop and certain display tasks (e.g. real-time edit-in response). I would also gate features in such a way as to strongly encourage primary cloud storage. Just my opinion.


Steve

Steve - in my case I am a subscriber and I can find info on the web that indicates up to 30 days of no connectivity before you lose features. However the links in that online web page go to adobe and on their pages I cannot locate the details. Adobe has a number of FAQ pages and details - including details on the new Lightroom CC vs. Lightroom Classic and how they work. Lightroom CC is what I was looking for a long time ago for use with Chromebook but now I'm not so sure. They recommend using one or the other not both and say that both will be available due to demand for the "foreseeable future" But that's not exactly comforting is it? LOL. As I indicated I tend to edit in DXO and only catalog in Light room so I may have to reconsider things.

https://helpx.adobe.com/creative-cloud/faq.html
10-19-2017, 01:27 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Thanks for the assessment of what "will happen" based on what currently happens. Out of curiosity, what does the current CC do when it cannot phone home to confirm a paid-up subscription (i.e. no Internet)? Does it inactivate all but the Library module? This is an honest question, not trolling.

In regards to things like catalog location...If I were in product planning at Adobe on the LR Classic team, I would anticipate that the product goals would be to move the full catalog and heavy processing load functionality (e.g. search) onto the cloud (huge benefits in regards to security and performance) teamed with an intelligent local cache of catalog entries to support Develop and certain display tasks (e.g. real-time edit-in response). I would also gate features in such a way as to strongly encourage primary cloud storage. Just my opinion.

Steve
Steve, as far as I have read (both independent and Adobe writings) the current subscription version of LR does as I described for the new LR Classic. Some Modules, most importantly the Develop Module, will become non-functional. Since LR 5.5, if you terminate your subscription "you can continue to use Lightroom excluding the Develop module, Map module and mobile sync." The last quote from Victoria Brampton, the Lightroom queen and corroborated by the writings of Tom Hogarty (director of product management for photographic products at Adobe).

As far as what "will happen" in this scenario for LR Classic, my response reflects the current state of affairs, which is always subject to change.

Best wishes,
Lee
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