Lightroom "Classic"

**UncleVanya** · 10-18-2017, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Adam

I don't think they are going to discontinue the classic/PC version. While the subscription model makes perfect sense, it also makes sense for desktop software to not force you to use cloud storage, due to file size, connectivity, etc.

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I hope you're right, Adam, but I do wonder. Cnet's article "Adobe Lightroom CC faces an uphill climb" opens with the statement: "Adobe's revamped photography strategy includes a new Lightroom CC cloud-based service and the final goodbye to no-subscription Lightroom.". Specifically, it mentions that there'll be no more CameraRaw updates for stand-alone versions, meaning any new cameras won't be supported: "With that upgrade to Camera Raw 10, Lightroom 6 users (based on ACR 9) get one last new camera codec, for the Nikon D850, before they're cut off from new camera support forever. Two-year-old Lightroom 6 is the last perpetual-license version."

I could be wrong but I think Adam was talking about the Classic/CC subscription vs. the Cloud Storage only subscription. The classic model leverages the same local storage and local process execution as the standalone product but requires a subscription. It provides the same performance and flexibility as a local stand alone product but comes with the subscription pricing.

RollsUp · 10-18-2017, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I hope you're right, Adam, but I do wonder. Cnet's article "Adobe Lightroom CC faces an uphill climb" opens with the statement: "Adobe's revamped photography strategy includes a new Lightroom CC cloud-based service and the final goodbye to no-subscription Lightroom.". Specifically, it mentions that there'll be no more CameraRaw updates for stand-alone versions, meaning any new cameras won't be supported: "With that upgrade to Camera Raw 10, Lightroom 6 users (based on ACR 9) get one last new camera codec, for the Nikon D850, before they're cut off from new camera support forever. Two-year-old Lightroom 6 is the last perpetual-license version."

I received an email from The Lightroom Queen say the same.

The End of Perpetual/Standalone Lightroom Licenses
"The majority of Lightroom users have moved over to subscription and it’s reached a point that the additional testing needed for perpetual licenses is no longer economically viable. "

**subsea** · 10-18-2017, 11:47 AM

Here's the specific wording from Adobe: Lightroom 6 is the last stand-alone version of Lightroom that can be purchased outside of a Creative Cloud membership. There will not be a Lightroom 7 perpetual offering. Lightroom 6 will remain for sale for an undetermined amount of time, but will no longer be updated with camera support or bug fixes after the end of 2017. Lightroom 6.13 with support for the Nikon D850 will be released on October 26th, 2017.

beholder3 · 10-18-2017, 11:48 AM

Lets not forget that via DNGs and the DNG Converter you can always use the most recent camera model raws and lens correction profiles even in LR 5. There simply is zero upgrade need unless you feel the software features are vastly improved (laugh).

In Germany the full functionality LR 7 / classic will cost 432 EUR / 3 years. No thanks. I can get a full array of unlimited software for that.

RawTherapee 5.2 is free and replaces Lightroom as raw developer.
Photoline is 59 EUR and replaces Photoshop.
Daminion as Catalogue cost 0-80 EUR. IMatch costs a little more. XNViewMP is free.

**BigMackCam** · 10-18-2017, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

I could be wrong but I think Adam was talking about the Classic/CC subscription vs. the Cloud Storage only subscription. The classic model leverages the same local storage and local process execution as the standalone product but requires a subscription. It provides the same performance and flexibility as a local stand alone product but comes with the subscription pricing.

Ah, right. That's something, I guess... but still, the subscription model rules it out for me, because:

Originally posted by beholder3

In Germany the full functionality LR 7 / classic will cost 432 EUR / 3 years.

stevebrot · 10-18-2017, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by beholder3

Lets not forget that via DNGs and the DNG Converter you can always use the most recent camera model raws and lens correction profiles even in LR 5.

I may be a pessimist, but I think it is doubtful that the standalone DNG Converter will survive once the move to universal primary cloud storage is accomplished. I suspect that conversion to DNG will be presented as an upload option.

Originally posted by RollsUp

"The majority of Lightroom users have moved over to subscription...

Well! That is cheeky! The majority of current sales may be CC, but that is not the established base, many of whom are poised for new camera purchase in 2018 and who are not interested in spending $240 per year for Classic with mandatory cloud storage that may top 1 TB for many users and who also have little need for Photoshop (the CC value proposition) on a regular basis. The value proposition is very, very, very dubious. The subscription is on the same order as what I might spend on gear updates over a five year period.

Steve

beholder3 · 10-18-2017, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

I may be a pessimist, but I think it is doubtful that the standalone DNG Converter will survive once the move to universal primary cloud storage is accomplished. I suspect that conversion to DNG will be presented as an upload option.

Agreed. But until they hammer that nail into the coffin and I have no newer camera/lenses after that, the road is still open.

Basically it is all just about lazyness to take a look at a new pice of software. The results from RT have always looked better to me than what I got out of LR.

Advantage is, that RT is either going under totally or it stays non rental software indefinitely.

**Rondec** · 10-18-2017, 12:17 PM

It is questionable how much benefit you get from upgrading Lightroom every new release. From 5 to 6 there were some tweaks of different tools, photomerge and HDR were added, and lens profiles, but actually performance slowed down some. At the same time, I do more than 95 percent of my editing in Lightroom and only go to Elements for big or tricky clone jobs. Clearly Adobe doesn't feel like they are making enough money from someone like me...

beholder3 · 10-18-2017, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by subsea

Here's the specific wording from Adobe: Lightroom 6 is the last stand-alone version of Lightroom that can be purchased outside of a Creative Cloud membership. There will not be a Lightroom 7 perpetual offering. Lightroom 6 will remain for sale for an undetermined amount of time, but will no longer be updated with camera support or bug fixes after the end of 2017. Lightroom 6.13 with support for the Nikon D850 will be released on October 26th, 2017.

Just trust Adobe. Believe. They're good. They want your best (said Kaa, the snake).

Here is another quote from them:

Originally posted by Adobe in 2013:

Q. Will Lightroom become a subscription only offering after Lightroom 5?
A. Future versions of Lightroom will be made available via traditional perpetual licenses indefinitely.

Lightroom and the Creative Cloud

Liars?

Murfy · 10-18-2017, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by beholder3

Lightroom and the Creative Cloud

Liars?

Yeah that is why I stuck with them, Little liars 😤

For those that switched from Lightroom, did you lose your edits? I don't want to use the subscription service either and I am kinda peeved about this, but what keeps me to L6 now is the files that I go back and duplicate and tweak but don't export. So, probably going to lose all that and my keywording?

**BigMackCam** · 10-18-2017, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Murfy

Yeah that is why I stuck with them, Little liars ��

For those that switched from Lightroom, did you lose your edits? I don't want to use the subscription service either and I am kinda peeved about this, but what keeps me to L6 now is the files that I go back and duplicate and tweak but don't export. So, probably going to lose all that and my keywording?

There's no reason for you to stop using LR6... That's what I'll be doing for the time being (and probably for a long time), until I come across an alternative stand-alone tool that does everything I want, more-or-less how I want.

To answer your question, though, Lightroom's edits aren't stored in the RAW file - so, if you subsequently open a RAW file in another application, it will be just as it came from the camera. What you can do is export the RAW file with edits to 16-bit TIFF, giving you a non-compressed image with the changes baked in, and load that TIFF to your new application (keep the RAW file, though, in case you want to start from scratch with your edits). You'd still lose catalog information such as keyword tags, of course...

stevebrot · 10-18-2017, 12:45 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BigMackCam

To answer your question, though, Lightroom's edits aren't stored in the RAW file - so, if you subsequently open those RAW files in another application, they will be just as they came from the camera. What you can do is export the RAW files to 16-bit TIFF, giving you non-compressed images with the changes baked in. You'd still lose catalog information such as keyword tags, of course...

One can configure so that the Adobe XMP is stored in the RAW, but that still is of extremely limited value unless interpreted by an Adobe product. As for keywords...I believe those are retained in exported images...at least they are in the JPEGs I upload to Flickr.

Steve

CarlJF · 10-18-2017, 12:45 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BigMackCam

EDIT: This is a *BIG* opportunity for Corel to up its game with Aftershot Pro 3, which I also own. In its current incarnation, it's actually rather good - not as good as Lightroom, but getting there. Sadly, it's very spotty with RAW support for various cameras... Neither my Hasselblad HV or Panasonic TZ-70 (ZS-50) files will load. Come on, Corel, this is your big chance!!

How is the support for Pentax cameras and lenses ? On paper, Aftershot looks quite interesting. And cheap too!

alamo5000 · 10-18-2017, 12:51 PM - **1 Like**

I will never use anything that requires a subscription. And I sure as hell will never use anything with a "cloud"

ChristianRock · 10-18-2017, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by CarlJF

How is the support for Pentax cameras and lenses ? On paper, Aftershot looks quite interesting. And cheap too!

It is interesting and I found it quite good. Support for Pentax cameras takes quite a while, which is the main reason I switched to Rawtherapee, it took forever for them to add the K-S1. Their RAW developer uses proprietary profiles, that is why it takes them a while. And it crashes quite a bit, that is something they never have been able to fix. But if you can live with its limitations it's good software I think.

10-18-2017, 11:48 AM	#19
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Lets not forget that via DNGs and the DNG Converter you can always use the most recent camera model raws and lens correction profiles even in LR 5. There simply is zero upgrade need unless you feel the software features are vastly improved (laugh). In Germany the full functionality LR 7 / classic will cost 432 EUR / 3 years. No thanks. I can get a full array of unlimited software for that. RawTherapee 5.2 is free and replaces Lightroom as raw developer. Photoline is 59 EUR and replaces Photoshop. Daminion as Catalogue cost 0-80 EUR. IMatch costs a little more. XNViewMP is free.

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10-18-2017, 11:45 AM	#16
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,401	Originally posted by Adam I don't think they are going to discontinue the classic/PC version. While the subscription model makes perfect sense, it also makes sense for desktop software to not force you to use cloud storage, due to file size, connectivity, etc. Originally posted by BigMackCam I hope you're right, Adam, but I do wonder. Cnet's article "Adobe Lightroom CC faces an uphill climb" opens with the statement: "Adobe's revamped photography strategy includes a new Lightroom CC cloud-based service and the final goodbye to no-subscription Lightroom.". Specifically, it mentions that there'll be no more CameraRaw updates for stand-alone versions, meaning any new cameras won't be supported: "With that upgrade to Camera Raw 10, Lightroom 6 users (based on ACR 9) get one last new camera codec, for the Nikon D850, before they're cut off from new camera support forever. Two-year-old Lightroom 6 is the last perpetual-license version." I could be wrong but I think Adam was talking about the Classic/CC subscription vs. the Cloud Storage only subscription. The classic model leverages the same local storage and local process execution as the standalone product but requires a subscription. It provides the same performance and flexibility as a local stand alone product but comes with the subscription pricing.

10-18-2017, 11:47 AM	#17
RollsUp Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: AK USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,766	Originally posted by BigMackCam I hope you're right, Adam, but I do wonder. Cnet's article "Adobe Lightroom CC faces an uphill climb" opens with the statement: "Adobe's revamped photography strategy includes a new Lightroom CC cloud-based service and the final goodbye to no-subscription Lightroom.". Specifically, it mentions that there'll be no more CameraRaw updates for stand-alone versions, meaning any new cameras won't be supported: "With that upgrade to Camera Raw 10, Lightroom 6 users (based on ACR 9) get one last new camera codec, for the Nikon D850, before they're cut off from new camera support forever. Two-year-old Lightroom 6 is the last perpetual-license version." I received an email from The Lightroom Queen say the same. The End of Perpetual/Standalone Lightroom Licenses "The majority of Lightroom users have moved over to subscription and it’s reached a point that the additional testing needed for perpetual licenses is no longer economically viable. "

10-18-2017, 11:47 AM	#18
subsea Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Commack, NY Posts: 2,603	Here's the specific wording from Adobe: Lightroom 6 is the last stand-alone version of Lightroom that can be purchased outside of a Creative Cloud membership. There will not be a Lightroom 7 perpetual offering. Lightroom 6 will remain for sale for an undetermined amount of time, but will no longer be updated with camera support or bug fixes after the end of 2017. Lightroom 6.13 with support for the Nikon D850 will be released on October 26th, 2017.

10-18-2017, 11:58 AM	#20
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by UncleVanya I could be wrong but I think Adam was talking about the Classic/CC subscription vs. the Cloud Storage only subscription. The classic model leverages the same local storage and local process execution as the standalone product but requires a subscription. It provides the same performance and flexibility as a local stand alone product but comes with the subscription pricing. Ah, right. That's something, I guess... but still, the subscription model rules it out for me, because: Originally posted by beholder3 In Germany the full functionality LR 7 / classic will cost 432 EUR / 3 years.

10-18-2017, 12:10 PM	#21
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by beholder3 Lets not forget that via DNGs and the DNG Converter you can always use the most recent camera model raws and lens correction profiles even in LR 5. I may be a pessimist, but I think it is doubtful that the standalone DNG Converter will survive once the move to universal primary cloud storage is accomplished. I suspect that conversion to DNG will be presented as an upload option. Originally posted by RollsUp "The majority of Lightroom users have moved over to subscription... Well! That is cheeky! The majority of current sales may be CC, but that is not the established base, many of whom are poised for new camera purchase in 2018 and who are not interested in spending $240 per year for Classic with mandatory cloud storage that may top 1 TB for many users and who also have little need for Photoshop (the CC value proposition) on a regular basis. The value proposition is very, very, very dubious. The subscription is on the same order as what I might spend on gear updates over a five year period. Steve

10-18-2017, 12:15 PM	#22
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Originally posted by stevebrot I may be a pessimist, but I think it is doubtful that the standalone DNG Converter will survive once the move to universal primary cloud storage is accomplished. I suspect that conversion to DNG will be presented as an upload option. Agreed. But until they hammer that nail into the coffin and I have no newer camera/lenses after that, the road is still open. Basically it is all just about lazyness to take a look at a new pice of software. The results from RT have always looked better to me than what I got out of LR. Advantage is, that RT is either going under totally or it stays non rental software indefinitely.

10-18-2017, 12:17 PM	#23
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	It is questionable how much benefit you get from upgrading Lightroom every new release. From 5 to 6 there were some tweaks of different tools, photomerge and HDR were added, and lens profiles, but actually performance slowed down some. At the same time, I do more than 95 percent of my editing in Lightroom and only go to Elements for big or tricky clone jobs. Clearly Adobe doesn't feel like they are making enough money from someone like me...

10-18-2017, 12:20 PM	#24
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Originally posted by subsea Here's the specific wording from Adobe: Lightroom 6 is the last stand-alone version of Lightroom that can be purchased outside of a Creative Cloud membership. There will not be a Lightroom 7 perpetual offering. Lightroom 6 will remain for sale for an undetermined amount of time, but will no longer be updated with camera support or bug fixes after the end of 2017. Lightroom 6.13 with support for the Nikon D850 will be released on October 26th, 2017. Just trust Adobe. Believe. They're good. They want your best (said Kaa, the snake). Here is another quote from them: Originally posted by Adobe in 2013: Q. Will Lightroom become a subscription only offering after Lightroom 5? A. Future versions of Lightroom will be made available via traditional perpetual licenses indefinitely. Lightroom and the Creative Cloud Liars?

10-18-2017, 12:31 PM	#25
Murfy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2014 Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	Originally posted by beholder3 Lightroom and the Creative Cloud Liars? Yeah that is why I stuck with them, Little liars 😤 For those that switched from Lightroom, did you lose your edits? I don't want to use the subscription service either and I am kinda peeved about this, but what keeps me to L6 now is the files that I go back and duplicate and tweak but don't export. So, probably going to lose all that and my keywording?

10-18-2017, 12:38 PM	#26
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by Murfy Yeah that is why I stuck with them, Little liars �� For those that switched from Lightroom, did you lose your edits? I don't want to use the subscription service either and I am kinda peeved about this, but what keeps me to L6 now is the files that I go back and duplicate and tweak but don't export. So, probably going to lose all that and my keywording? There's no reason for you to stop using LR6... That's what I'll be doing for the time being (and probably for a long time), until I come across an alternative stand-alone tool that does everything I want, more-or-less how I want. To answer your question, though, Lightroom's edits aren't stored in the RAW file - so, if you subsequently open a RAW file in another application, it will be just as it came from the camera. What you can do is export the RAW file with edits to 16-bit TIFF, giving you a non-compressed image with the changes baked in, and load that TIFF to your new application (keep the RAW file, though, in case you want to start from scratch with your edits). You'd still lose catalog information such as keyword tags, of course...

10-18-2017, 12:45 PM - 1 Like	#27
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by BigMackCam To answer your question, though, Lightroom's edits aren't stored in the RAW file - so, if you subsequently open those RAW files in another application, they will be just as they came from the camera. What you can do is export the RAW files to 16-bit TIFF, giving you non-compressed images with the changes baked in. You'd still lose catalog information such as keyword tags, of course... One can configure so that the Adobe XMP is stored in the RAW, but that still is of extremely limited value unless interpreted by an Adobe product. As for keywords...I believe those are retained in exported images...at least they are in the JPEGs I upload to Flickr. Steve

10-18-2017, 12:45 PM - 1 Like	#28
CarlJF Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,185	Originally posted by BigMackCam EDIT: This is a BIG opportunity for Corel to up its game with Aftershot Pro 3, which I also own. In its current incarnation, it's actually rather good - not as good as Lightroom, but getting there. Sadly, it's very spotty with RAW support for various cameras... Neither my Hasselblad HV or Panasonic TZ-70 (ZS-50) files will load. Come on, Corel, this is your big chance!! How is the support for Pentax cameras and lenses ? On paper, Aftershot looks quite interesting. And cheap too!

10-18-2017, 12:51 PM - 1 Like	#29
alamo5000 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,962	I will never use anything that requires a subscription. And I sure as hell will never use anything with a "cloud"

10-18-2017, 01:00 PM	#30
ChristianRock Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: People's Republic of America Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,910	Originally posted by CarlJF How is the support for Pentax cameras and lenses ? On paper, Aftershot looks quite interesting. And cheap too! It is interesting and I found it quite good. Support for Pentax cameras takes quite a while, which is the main reason I switched to Rawtherapee, it took forever for them to add the K-S1. Their RAW developer uses proprietary profiles, that is why it takes them a while. And it crashes quite a bit, that is something they never have been able to fix. But if you can live with its limitations it's good software I think.