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11-21-2017, 11:57 AM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bengan Quote
This sounds like the problem I'm experiencing. I tried to catalogue the entire folder structure but On1 2018 crashed with 98% done. After that it crashed a couple of seconds after start again and again. Reply from support was to delete the cache, which I did. It was then possible to start the program. Retried the cataloguing but the same thing happened when 98% was done.
How did you find the photo or folder that was causing the problem? I'm reluctant to use a trial and error approach.
I have only found a parent folder. My folder structure is generally: Photos\Year\Date .... e.g. "Photos\2017\2017-11-01" for photos taken on November 1, 2017.

So, I had dropped in the "Photos" folder (which includes everything), and had repeatedly got to 60% complete. Deleted the cache, and the same problem occurred (just like you stated). Deleted the cache again and the catalog. Then I decided to add the folders year by year. When I got to one particular year it crashed again. I deleted the cache again, and tried adding that year to the catalog by itself. It crashed again. Similar process to check that other years that I hadn't tried wouldn't do it and no problems.

At that point, I just recreated the issue and sent On1 (replying to the message they sent me) the Log File. I looked in the Log file, and the message was cryptic. It says nothing about what file is hanging things up or why.

I could go through a similar process within that year, but I am hesitant at this point. It was easier when I had 17 subfolders to go through (2001 through 2017). It would be more difficult with potentially 100's. I would like to know what is causing the problem, but I had hoped On1 would give me feedback on the log file I sent them.

Perhaps this issue isn't too uncommon, and they are fixing it. In the meantime, I quit using their catalog completely. The software runs a bit faster this way.

11-21-2017, 12:42 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by emalvick Quote
I quit using their catalog completely. The software runs a bit faster this way.

Same here, but I found that I was less interested in pursuing the work with ON1 2018 without the catalogue. Hoping that they will fix it until next release I put ON1 in quarantine and went back to Lightroom for now.
11-21-2017, 06:48 PM - 1 Like   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
ON1 can be used as a stand-alone utility, in which case it develops RAW files itself. However, as far as I can see, if used as a plug-in from LR, that option is not allowed. It begins with the LR-developed file. Is that right? Are there advantages or disadvantages to that?
When you use On1 as a Plug-In the file is technically an LR file that is processed up to the point you choose to go to a plug-in like On1. Despite doing work in On1 it remains an LR file so when you finish in On1 you hit the button, the On1 updates are added to the file, and your image re-opens in LR.

What happens is LR creates a file, I had LR set to create a PSD as it could then be sent back to LR and worked on in PS with the On1 updates on a layer. As your file started in LR it ends up back in LR after the updates are made as this is where you manage the file from (if you use On1 as a PS plug-in the same rules apply, PS creates a file it opens in On1 and after the On1 PP it re-opens in PS).

Because the file is being managed in LR there’s no need to go via On1 Browse, it would seem to me to be a redundant step to add. However having said this when you’re in LR have a look at the options available for using plug-ins. I usually just right clicked my mouse and selected the On1 module I wanted to use (these changed over the years but the individual modules were listed separately as opposed to ‘On1’ being accesses generically as a plug-in).

However, some of the On1 tutorials did not recommend going to On1 by right clicking as this only gave you access to the one module. Therefore if you went from LR, right click to process in On1 Develop, you couldn’t go to On1 Effects from within On1. You had to finalise work in On1 Develop, go back to LR and repeat the process to enter the new On1 module.

If however you went via the main drop down menus; File/Plug-In Extras you can select the On1 module you want to use and can transfer between them whilst there before returning your image to LR.

The main disadvantage of using On1 or indeed any other plug in from LR is you no longer work in RAW. LR creates a file after you’ve done your initial PP and this can no longer be changed from that point. Other than that plug-ins allow LR to be more than it can be on its Pat Malone.

QuoteOriginally posted by derelict Quote
How does On1 handle cloning/ healing out things in a shot (like powerlines, for example)?
PhotoRAW has three cloning tools. These are the Perfect Eraser (a content aware tool), the Retouch Brush and a Clone Stamp Tool. Something like power lines would be no challenge to these tools, but more complex cloning might cause them to trip up. This is where you might use them in combination.

The recommendations out of On1 seems to be:
· Use the Perfect Eraser to do the ‘heavy lifting’ when cloning. This will get you close to what you want and the final cloning can be achieved using the Retouch brush and Clone Stamp tools.
· The Retouch Brush is the quickest tool to use for the simple jobs like dust spots. In portrait work it can be used to remove blemishes and reduce noticeable variations in skin tone like heavy bags under the eyes.
· The Clone Stamp tool works exactly the same as the tool in Photoshop. The importance in using this tool is to be aware of tonal/colour variations in the area sampled compared to the area to be cloned. So nothing different there then.

The On1 cloning tools are available in the three primary modules used for PP, these being Develop, Effects and Layers. They have improved markedly in the 2017 and 2018 versions, however the early release of Photo RAW 2017 could hang if you did extensive cloning. This problem seems to have been resolved, however I feel the Adobe Photoshop cloning tools are still the benchmark with the On1 tools improving and narrowing the gap considerably.

QuoteOriginally posted by subsea Quote
Just a note regarding the crashing issue: as I commented earlier in the thread, my crashing issue seems to be related to the amount of RAM on my Mac. I think it's wise to take ON1's RAM recommendations seriously. LR6 seems to handle low-RAM situations more gracefully, but slowly. That being said, since I upgraded the RAM in my Mac, I haven't had a single crash so, on that score (at least), I'm a happy camper. My biggest complaint right now echoes one of yours: the lack of a history file. However, if you're using layers, you can recover some of the history by converting them to "smart layers" before saving. It's just not as convenient as in LR6.
Compared to you the shortfall in RAM was not an issue for me when I installed Photo RAW 2017 as I had more than the minimum system recommendations. However when accessing Photo RAW 2017 for the first time I could hear the fans going crazy so I opened up the Task Manager (Win7 Pro) to find out what was happening with my machine. What I found was that within a couple of minutes the program had maxed out my RAM and subsequently caused my computer to crash. This was not On1 crashing, it was crashing my entire system.

After seeing this issue repeatedly I decided to max out RAM on my machine (to 32GB as it’s a four year old CPU). Same thing happened still, so I decided to replace my 2GB GPU with a 6GB GPU. Still not working properly so I contacted On1 and they offered to set up a phone meeting to enable them to talk through the problem with me and identify a solution. I didn’t take them up on this offer though I wished I did as maybe I’d understand better what was happening. Here’s an example of what my poor old system had to cope with in the early days of Photo RAW 2017:


In the end there were a couple of updates provided and after the second one the issue stopped being a problem. After it settled down though I noticed it leaning on my CPU, sometimes maxing that out when processing an image. This was especially noticeable with cloning. Again this problem was resolved in a later update however the CPU was still getting some love from time to time in the 2017 program.

FYI, I load via Windows Explorer using an SD card adaptor via USB3 socket. I create a file folder then open On1 to access the images and do the next step which can be naming convention, colour batching, deleting, star rating, keywords etc. Some of these steps are done during LR import so it’s the same end state but a different path to get there. I’m interested in how an upcoming change to add an import button will be and whether it will create a similar import path to LR.

I’ve only ever used the Windows file structure and have not catalogued folders or built any albums so please consider my comments in that context.

I forgot about the History file in LR, I used to use it regularly if I felt I went too far the wrong way, though to be honest I don’t miss it at all now. On1 required me to think differently without having the history to fall back on and I feel their approach gives me more control than what I was getting in LR. That's probably more a faded memory thing but in all honesty give it a little time and if you're like me you won't miss it. To quote Professor Julius Sumner-Miller: Whys is it so?

In On1 if you have a well exposed RAW image it probably only needs some tweaking in Develop to set white/black points, balance the shadows, manage highlights and white balance then finish off with some sharpening before exporting. This module is designed to set the photo up and each tool with the exception of tone and colour can be toggled on and off to review what is happening.

Of course some images may need more work or there’s some haze you want to fix or get the colours more punchy or desaturated. You can do some of this in Develop and some you can do over in Effects. And even an image that needs more work probably won’t need to go any further than Effects before exporting. I do 95% of my PP in these two modules, and the work is all done on the RAW file.

Now unlike LR’s history file you can’t just go back a couple of steps, but you can toggle tools/filters on and off to see the before after. If you're unhappy with the after image instead of stepping back down a linear history you adjust the various tool settings you’ve applied to get the image back to where you’re satisfied. For example, if you’ve set the white balance in Develop then added the Sunshine filter in Effects you may end up blowing out the whites. No biggie as there’s several ways to fix this in either Develop by resetting the white point, or in Effects by clicking the Gear and protecting the highlights or only adding to say the midtones or using the masking tools to again protect the highlights.

Still not happy? You can also reduce the filter strength and the opacity separately or completely reset a filter or even delete each filter separately. I see this approach as more flexible than a linear history file but then I’ve been using it for longer and gotten used to it.

And if this sounds slower I wonder if it’s slower than completing several PP steps then going back down your history and wiping that work out completely? The On1 mantra you’ll hear regularly in their videos is when you apply an adjustment in Develop or a filter in Effects use the sliders at each extreme before settling on what you think looks correct visually. Everything you’re doing is non-destructive and can be undone in Develop and Effects. As nothing is locked in you have complete control on changing anything you want.

Would a history file make it better? It would likely make the LR people happier though I don’t think I’d ever use it as I have more experience working in the On1 workflow now so it seems redundant (horses for courses, YMMV and all that stuff).

So far as Layers goes, this is no different than going from LR to PS as you’re no longer working in RAW. Both LR and On1 create a PSD file (I think this can be changed to a TIFF if you want) to work in layers. And provide a file that can be reworked later though as you state the Smart Layers in On1 is the way to redo work so changes are not baked into the file.

Hopefully the above info based on my experiences will be of use.
-------------------------------------
John,

sorry for the multiple novels, happy to sod off if you agree with what me mum tells me to do.

Tas
11-21-2017, 07:10 PM - 1 Like   #34
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Interestingly enough, I never had a problem running ON1 Photo Raw 2017 on the same machine that 2018 crashed. In fact I’ve run it on a laptop with 4GB of RAM with no issues (other than running slowly).

11-21-2017, 07:35 PM - 1 Like   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by subsea Quote
Interestingly enough, I never had a problem running ON1 Photo Raw 2017 on the same machine that 2018 crashed. In fact I’ve run it on a laptop with 4GB of RAM with no issues (other than running slowly).
That is interesting, your experience seems to be the complete opposite of mine in some ways.

I've watched both LR6 and On1 2018 accessing my NAS folder that contains 2.6TB of images via Task Manager. On1 is way quicker even though both programs recognise the folder however as I only map the drive when I want to access it again there's a need for both programs to all but load it again it seems. Looking at resource usage as this occurs shows LR6 using half the resources of On1 at approx 3,600,000k versus 6,700,000k. Admittedly that's the peak usage and they both settle down to a much lower level. RAM usage, even with both programs running remains under 8GB.

It might be an interesting perspective to monitor resource usage live to see what's going on though it doesn't explain why I had a program sucking 32GB of RAM when you could run it at 4GB.

Tas
11-21-2017, 08:37 PM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tas Quote
That is interesting, your experience seems to be the complete opposite of mine in some ways.

I've watched both LR6 and On1 2018 accessing my NAS folder that contains 2.6TB of images via Task Manager. On1 is way quicker even though both programs recognise the folder however as I only map the drive when I want to access it again there's a need for both programs to all but load it again it seems. Looking at resource usage as this occurs shows LR6 using half the resources of On1 at approx 3,600,000k versus 6,700,000k. Admittedly that's the peak usage and they both settle down to a much lower level. RAM usage, even with both programs running remains under 8GB.

It might be an interesting perspective to monitor resource usage live to see what's going on though it doesn't explain why I had a program sucking 32GB of RAM when you could run it at 4GB.

Tas
I wonder if it’s related to using NAS. I don’t use it, but I have had multiple external drives connected without problems.
11-21-2017, 09:08 PM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by subsea Quote
I wonder if it’s related to using NAS. I don’t use it, but I have had multiple external drives connected without problems.
I don't recall if the NAS drive was mapped when I maxed out RAM, it was nearly a year ago now and the memory's too faded to remember. One thing to help manage that though is reducing the total resource usage that On1 can use in the preferences. It defaults to 80% so turning this down back then might have fixed the problem but really for me v1 of RAW 2017 was released too early.

All good now though so onward and upward as they say (whoever 'they' are).

Tas

11-23-2017, 05:42 AM - 1 Like   #38
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I went back and tried cataloguing the folders that crashed ON1 2018 in the 2017 version. No problems and it was fast. The process used 4 GB memory, well over 50% of the processor capacity and sort of maxed out the network (since the folders are stored on a NAS).
9000 photos catalogued in a little over 10 minutes. There are definitely stability problems with the ON1 2018 yet to be solved.
11-23-2017, 05:33 PM   #39
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Morganti's series on ON1 RAW Photo 2018

One of my favourite tutors for LR, Anthony Morganti is commencing a new series on ON1 Photo RAW 2018.

The first one deals with his five favourite filters: Sunshine | Tone Enhancer | Dynamic Contrast | Color Enhancer | Vignette

See

I wondered a little whether he was making too much of a meal of his image.

I find adding a vignette under-cuts all the work involved in correcting for a lens in the first place. Also the sunshine and tone enhancer filters seemed so-so at least on my display. However it also hinted at one approach to workflow with ON1, with which I am still exploring.

But I did find instructive what Morganti does with dynamic contrast (somewhat like LR's Clarity slider) and Color Enhancer. Both offered more functionality than LR especially when you can vary the effect with an opacity slider. When coupled with ON1's ability to replicate effects across other images in a shoot-out, I can see more efficiencies are possible.

Thoughts?
11-23-2017, 08:39 PM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnhilvert Quote
Thoughts?
1. Presets panel in view. For the life of me I don’t know why anyone would leave that Presets panel open on the left when you can hide it and increase the area for the image and remove distractions. You hit the button in the bottom left to hide and hit it again to access it so there’s no real advantage to leaving it there if you’re not using it. IMHO etc.

2. No info on Develop settings. To get the best of the Effects module it is best to ensure the image is set up correctly by going through the Develop module. When looking at his image on my screen I think there’s possibly some highlights lost in the image, but it’s hard to tell without the Histogram being shown. I always work with that showing and only go to Nav or Info as needed.

As this is an important step the Develop settings should be done first to prepare the tones, colour, noise, and maybe sharpening before you get into drawing more out of the image in Effects. It’s worth creating a version out of the same image and test this yourself. Something I would have done is to reduce the luminance in the sky to ensure the image is more balanced. That’s a personal preference though but it’s something you can do in Local adjustments. I would do this before adding any filters.

3. Colour caste. It might just be me, but the blue in the sky does not look natural. This may be an indication of some work in Develop, and or variance in screen colour calibration.

4. Move cursor to the left of the ‘More’ options list. When he added the Sunshine filter and then looked at the options to compare them he moved over the top of each option, even those he apparently never uses. As you scroll over an option the image changes to show what that option looks like.

An alternative approach is to move the cursor to the side instead of scrolling across the top of every option. It’s not always easy to be accurate doing this but what it does is hold the option you want to compare with another that you want to compare. This also works in blend modes so you can go from the default ‘Normal’ option to Luminosity without all the irrelevant changes in between.

5. Default settings. I don’t know why he added a Sunshine filter, then needed to use a Tone Enhancer to correct the whites on the left. The filter comes with an amount slider and he chose one of the more aggressive options. Compare the amount slider settings for each and you’d have to wonder why he chose that one then corrected later on.

This is especially hard for me to understand when there’s many masking options to consider, not just a change in amount or opacity. This would allow the application across the frame using the more aggressive Radiance option then use a lower opacity large brush to reduce the effect where he’s got a loss of detail. The last thing to point out is when correcting with the Tone Enhancer he used the sliders. These are quick but there’s better control using the curves.

6. Dynamic Contrast. I see he’s quite happy to go with default settings too much and when he applied this you can see that same pattern again. Quite rightly he’s walked away and also used the opacity slider, but this is not the best approach for adding Dynamic Contrast.

The best thing to do with Dynamic Contrast is to use the sliders called ‘Small’, ‘Medium’ & ‘Large’. Try dropping these to zero or about 10 for each. Adjust each slider individually to your image by pushing it high then bringing it back to where the image looks right. Go too far you will see halos and a more jagged appearance and different subjects will work with different amounts. Staying too low and you won’t get the benefits of a filter that can really bring an image to life.

Some points to note: I prefer not to add this filter globally for most images. Look at the blue in the sky here, why does it need more contrast? Often adding it to a sky creates noise so I prefer not to add it to the entire image, only those parts I see benefit. And this is where the 2018 masking tools makes adding this filter so much easier. A luminosity mask can be used, a colour selector can be used and you can then also use the brush.

The final point I would make on Dynamic Contrast is the potential for clipping whites/blacks. This is easily managed using the protection sliders for highlights/shadows.

7. Colour Enhancer. This is a filter I use regularly to balance colours. He did a pretty good job here in explaining a process similar to that I use. This is like the LR Colour Channels so the colour hue in the sky that I think looks odd could have been fixed here. I guess he sees it different to me. As I see the sky he could have used the ‘aqua’ slider and pushed the hue towards the blue end and given it a more natural appearance. I’d probably push the saturation slider down too as well as the luminance slider then balance the look with the blue sliders.

8. Vignette. A vignette is a personal preference thing of course, sometimes I use them, and sometimes I don’t. I’m a fan of the Big Softy, but only as a starting point. I’ve adopted a style that a lot of the On1 videos recommend. I apply the vignette and then turn the feather off. This lets me select the roundness I seek. I then choose the size and select the cursor control in the bottom left corner to move the centre of the vignette to where I want it on the image as I may not want it central. I finish with turning the feather back on, typically to 100% then pushing the Brightness slider to the right to make the vignette all but disappear as it shouldn’t really be that noticeable like the way he did it. I often use masking to select areas to not apply the vignette to as well.

Another way of doing a vignette is via the Tone Enhancer with the Masking Bug and the ‘Centre’ shape. This allows you to use curves or sliders on two vignette styles that is very flexible and of course masking or tone protection can be added if you want.

9. Global adjustments? I usually do global adjustments in Develop with some local adjustments where needed. I do some global work in Effects with a focus on masking to control how and where I apply a filter. All of his filters were applied globally so he seemed to be focusing this presentation on the filters he regularly uses as opposed to how to get the best out of each of those filters. More of a quick and dirty look than a detailed workflow. Did you get a similar impression?

10. Sequence. This is the first time I’ve seen this approach to adding filters, and maybe there’s a right way and a wrong way, but the way I prefer is to start with tones, then colour then effects. I do the first two primarily in Develop but there are times that the extra control in Effects means that I would start with a Tone Enhancer in Effects then as this would be at the bottom of the stack I could go back and adjust it if a later filter creates a problem. I say it like that as yes the final filter caused it but if I want that filter I go back down the stack turning each filter off the back no individually to see where the problem lies if it isn't obvious.

It’s worthwhile focusing on the sequence though as it can make a big difference in how your image comes out after PP. This is where I recommend going through Develop to ensure the image is set up correctly first. You can always go back into Develop at any stage so the luxury of fixing things means a final tweak is always an option.

Another worthwhile sequence to remember is to add a Colour Enhancer filter before selecting B&W. Whilst the B&W filter has a colour channel tool there is much more control in the Colour Enhancer as you get Hue, Saturation and Luminance. So typically I add the Colour Enhancer but don't change anything, I then add the B&W filter then I go back to the Colour Enhancer to work in each colour channel before going back to the B&W filter to finish working on that on options there.

Tas Tolkien
11-27-2017, 06:26 PM   #41
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ON1 has no timetable for supporting Pentax RAW file formats

I just received a delayed response from ON1 Support on Pentax file formats.

ON1 has no timetable for Pentax RAW file formats. According to a representative, ON1 will be adding support for Fuji raw file film simulations and likely adding support for the new Apple format in future versions. It adds they may end up adding support for Pentax formats such as Pixel-Perfect “at some point”. It stated it had no schedule on when or if these will be included in future updates to version 2018.

If nothing else, I'll work on a guide on the best way of moving these files from DCU5 to LR 6 and ON1 and review their merits.

Anyone with a promising workflow for processing Pixel-Perfect and HD-RAW via ON1 please reply to this thread which is becoming a goldmine for tips and traps so far.
11-28-2017, 05:19 PM   #42
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By the way, GPS is screwed in ON1 2017 and 2018 for PEF files. DNG is fine. It sets the "seconds" field to zero, thereby moving you some hundreds of metres away in general. I reported it to ON1, but the guy handling it lacked the wit to understand the problem, no matter how carefully and fully I explained it.
12-03-2017, 10:27 PM   #43
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ON1 with separate Pentax HDR files

Drat. It was going quite smoothly. Then I experienced a consistent crash with Pentax separated HDR RAW files. These are about 26-28Mb in size.

The K3 ii prepared composite file of some 80mb loads OK though.

But when I used DCU5 to separate them into three separate files to process and merge in ON1 Photo RAW, it crashed consistently.

FWIW I was able to load the three files fine in Aurora HDR 2018 without an issue. I've filed a support request with ON1.

Anyone else experience a crash with separated HDR files in ON1 Photo RAW 2018?

Last edited by johnhilvert; 12-03-2017 at 10:27 PM. Reason: spelling
12-19-2017, 11:52 AM   #44
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LR 6.14 Released Today

FYI,

LR 6.14 (the last version of the standalone application) was released today (19 December 2017). It includes new cameras and lenses (no Pentax) and some bug fixes.
12-19-2017, 01:50 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by subsea Quote
FYI,

LR 6.14 (the last version of the standalone application) was released today (19 December 2017). It includes new cameras and lenses (no Pentax) and some bug fixes.
A WARNING for those intending to update Lightroom 6 stand-alone...

I just did the update and when I started Lightroom, it had moved me to the trial version of the subscription-based system!

I'm part-way through a system restore to this morning's restore point... fingers crossed
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