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11-13-2017, 10:11 PM - 1 Like   #1
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Help me leave Lightroom and explore my fascination with ON1

Dear Pentaxforums.com readers,

I am planning a series of guides on how Lightroom users can migrate and rekindle their post-processing vibe with the latest ON1 offering..

*** Do you have any tips or traps with ON1 you'd like to share? ***

After eight years working with Adobe Lightroom I've decided to phase out my processing on Lightroom 6 and migrate to ON1 Photo RAW 2018 - close to its final beta version (12.0.0.4006).

I'm leaving Lightroom because its developer, Adobe has run out of puff in terms of value, performance and innovation.

With the closing down of its stand-alone offering last month, my impression is Adobe moved its business focus from enthusiasts and semi-professionals to a more accepting and less finicky subscription base. It will thrive with this new model, but it's not what I crave.

Its last update (6.13?) should be available in the next few months. Then we may adopt one its two subscription offerings, neither of which enthuse me to continue with.

Though it's the market leader, Adobe Lightroom has become bloated, slow and short on improved functionality.

Don't try to use Lightroom to download and select from a memory card full of images, without considerable delays. Its cataloguing requires care and discipline that have made me cranky and confused, lately. Its half-hearted support for Pentax features such as Pixel-Shift and HDR-RAW have also disappointed. It still demands using Photoshop for composite and masking work.

ON1's performance, array of features and support enticed me to commit to it -- at least for a series of guides, I plan to compile over the coming months.

*** Please feel free to lob your favourite tips and gotchas that I may encounter, so I can write it up and share the results. ***


Last edited by johnhilvert; 11-14-2017 at 04:51 AM. Reason: grammar
11-13-2017, 10:38 PM - 1 Like   #2
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I am interested to see this. I use LR as my primary tool (Aperture deserted me), but also have ON1 for more "artistic" endeavours. I haven't had time to really explore ON1 2018 yet (I am very busy at work at present), but didn't find ON1 2017 an adequate LR replacement in all ways. I thought it lacking in recovering highlights, noise reduction (or at least more difficult to use), and lens profiles. I also REALLY miss the LR F-key to inspect the image full-screen.

Also, I still use LR for cataloguing etc.
11-13-2017, 10:55 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
... I thought [ON1 2017] lacking in recovering highlights, noise reduction (or at least more difficult to use), and lens profiles. I also REALLY miss the LR F-key to inspect the image full-screen.

Also, I still use LR for cataloguing etc.
Great points.

Reportedly ON1 2018's layers, local adjustments and luminosity masks have improved for recovering highlights.

The LR cataloguing issue is a familiar one. You can still use ON1 2018 as a plug-in for LR --- which I am doing at present.

FWIW my beef concerns ON1's current lack of support for dual displays.
11-13-2017, 11:05 PM - 1 Like   #4
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Leaving LR

I commend the OP for planning to do this, as I think it will beneficial to many current LR users. I've been downloading and playing with various LR alternatives over the past while, all with their own strengths, and have decided to try and NOT get trapped into some cataloguing system again. I've begun exporting thousands of images edited in LR to Google Photos as 100% quality jpgs, so that I at least don't lose the final results of the editing work, and will continue reviewing alternatives in the meantime. Leaning towards Rawtherapee (with digiKam as my organizer) at the moment. I like open source, but like ACDsee Photo Studio Pro as well, so we'll see. ON1 is fine as well, but it's not my fav at the moment, just a style thing. Also still waiting to see if Luminar makes a trial version available, only to try out its editing powers. Good luck to the OP, it will be a lot work, but will benefit the PF and wider photography communities.

11-13-2017, 11:21 PM - 1 Like   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnhilvert Quote
Adobe Lightroom has become bloated, slow and short on improved functionality.
I thought LR bloated and slow from 1st version. I did not like Adobe creating catalog because Adobe does not specialize in DB s/w. I continued with CS6. Now I am learning Raw Therapee. I like their documentation. It is technical, seems like written by someone who knows what is going on under the hood.
11-13-2017, 11:50 PM   #6
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Here's the official launch announcement for ON1 -- ON1 Photo RAW 2018 ? Now Available! – ON1, Inc.

It states "...The algorithms for highlight recovery have been improved."

That said, I just tried LR 6 v the latest version of ON1 2018 and Paul the Sunman's musing about ON1's highlight recovery is confirmed.

Though subtle LR's highlight recovery (using just that tool) was better at recovering highlights than ON1 2018. On the other hand, ON1 2018 looked better overall.

I'll explore this in more detail in the first guide
11-14-2017, 12:41 AM - 2 Likes   #7
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John, this is a very worthwhile endeavour!

I've been trialling Darkroom under Linux for my switch away from Lightroom, and it has been a mostly positive experience. I'm pretty much convinced this is the route I will go, however I'm interested to see how other options could fare.

For me personally, there are several things that figure high on my list of priorities:

(1) Ability to open and correctly process RAW files from cameras that (as yet) have no defined profile. Lightroom is great at this... So long as the Adobe DNG Converter is capable of converting a file to DNG format, Lightroom will open it. Corel's Aftershot Pro (another package I own) fails in this regard - if the EXIF data presents a camera not in the supported list, the file won't open. Darkroom is, again, very good at this.

(2) Hot pixel correction (preferably automatic). I shoot several older cameras, some of which do not have dead pixel mapping. With Lightroom, any dead pixels are automatically dealt with when the file is opened. Darkroom has a feature that works quite well but requires a little more work (it's not quite so automatic).

(3) High ISO colour noise reduction. Lightroom's colour noise reduction is the best I have come across, and is capable of removing colour noise without leaving green and magenta blotches - even for high ISO images.

(4) Masked sharpening. I often leave a reasonable amount of luminance noise in my images, as it helps to preserve detail. Thus, when I'm sharpening, I want the ability to mask everything except defined detail... I don't want to sharpen everything globally. Lightroom is excellent for this, and Darkroom is pretty capable too.

(5) Highlight and shadow recovery. Whilst not absolutely essential, I find Lightroom's highlight and shadow recovery to be really excellent. Many alternatives are lacking in this respect.

(6) Copying settings from one image to multiple other images. Essential for me. E.g. copying fine-tuned white balance and tone curve settings from the first processed image to all other images from the same series.

(7) Simple lens corrections. Whilst I like Lightroom's facility for profile lens corrections, most of the time I prefer to handle simple barrel or pincushion distortion manually, since I can choose to partially correct or over-correct. Darkroom doesn't allow this, and it's a real bug-bear for me.

(8) Library management. Lightroom's cataloguing facilities are excellent, providing all the flexibility I need (and then some). Any replacement either needs to offer some degree of similar functionality, or work in tandem with other tools that can fulfill the library role.

These are just off the top of my head... I'm sure there are others I could think of. If you're able to touch on any or all of the above, I'd personally find it helpful and I think a few other members might too

11-14-2017, 01:05 AM - 4 Likes   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnhilvert Quote
*** Do you have any tips or traps with ON1 you'd like to share? ***
Well seeing you asked John.

I’ve been using On1 for about 5-6 years and have appreciated that since 2017 I’ve not even looked at Lightroom. It took a couple of updates in Photo RAW 2017 before my system would play properly, and as I’ve only had 2018 for a week I’ll make comment on changing to On1 in general due to my lack of time with their updated program. Some recommendations to start with:

Make use of their free videos on using the program. Every now and then a gem will pop up and save you time/improve how you use the program.

There is an On1 blog entry to help you transfer from LR to Photo RAW, it is aimed at managing the catalogue ‘transfer’, it can be found here: 3 Steps for Moving from Lightroom to ON1 Photo RAW – ON1, Inc..

I didn’t realise how reliant I had become on Lightroom (LR2 to LR6) for importing my images. The changeover to On1 stumped me for a bit until I realised I could pretty much do the same thing I just had to adapt how I did my imports. Now I create a folder in Explorer (I’m on WIN7 Pro) and paste my images into that. Once all the images are downloaded I use Browse to do an initial cull of the crap then use the labelling (stars, colours etc) and add keywords. I’ve returned to naming the folders with a date due to the less developed filtering system compared to LR.

When I first installed Photo RAW 2017 I had all sorts of problems with it consuming all available RAM. My system is a little over 4 years old so I decided to top up the RAM and I even added an updated Video card as On1 also leverages off of that. Still had problems until they did a second update and it seemed to stabilise. Now I don’t know what caused this but my advice is to use the task Manager to see how the program works with your system. It leans on my CPU a fair bit but other than that all is good. There are parameters you can set up under Edit/Preferences for memory, cache etc. I have moved my Browse cache from the default 5000MB to 8000MB recently to see if that will speed things up.

I need to tie the info in that last paragraph to what I think happens in On1 Browse. My initial problems with the 2017 version maybe due to the number of images I have (>500 000) and I think the program was identifying them and robbing my system of memory to do so. I say this as it stopped and I’ve not seen the problem since. The biggest delay I seem to get now is when I go into my NAS which has the largest repository of images. I’ve found that if I go straight into a folder it’s a bit slow loading all the images. I’ve since gone to the upper folder for all images to let the entire collection load. I then go to the individual folder and it loads quicker. As I’m so new to this version I may not be representing the program fairly as I was also running some NAS maintenance at the same time. I’ll be looking out for any delay changes when I next go back in to the NAS photo folder to see if it was the NAS causing the delay in the folders loading.

I mentioned above the preferences folders found under Edit, it can also be accessed using the Gear icon in the bottom left corner. I recommend you set up the basics from the outset so the program defaults are what you want not what On1 have set. You know what settings you want to use no doubt but I recommend you consider the following:

General
Scrolling Controls: Brush size
Start In: Browse
Check for Update on Launch: Unticked as they send update notifications out by email
Warn when leaving files in Layers: Ticked as I’m likely to forget otherwise

Files

I recommend the selection to Save On1 sidecar files is turned on as this will allow you to return to your image and make adjustments later on

I have the auto lens corrections ticked but there’s only about 50 Pentax lenses available in their system, though you can assist in adding new ones as they use information supplied through the ‘LensFun Project’. Here’s the On1 brief on the topic: Supported Lens Correction Profiles ? ON1 Support

Plug-ins
I leave these at their defaults, just remember whilst you can Save Photoshop files as the re-editable Smart Files this will make them quite large. This is something to keep in mind when you’re using Layers too.

Services
I have Drop Box, so I’ve added that and it now appears in Browse as a source.

Beyond the Browse panel you would normally use the Develop module to set up your image. This is where global adjustments for white/black point can be set, white balance, colour are done etc. I use this module to sort out dust bunnies, wonky horizons etc though you can do this in Effects and Layers too if you forget. Something I will mention here is the cloning tools. When I get rid of dust spots I use the retouch brush. It seems to be the quickest tool for a simple job which is only more complicated when using the Perfect Eraser or Clone Stamp tools.

Note that when you use the Local Adjustments in Develop that these same parameters are the ones sitting under Local Adjustments when you go into Effects. I’ve forgotten this thinking that a new filter was being started once I went into Effects.

I agree with the previous comments about the less effective noise reduction compared to LR6.

I find the sharpening in Develop to be really subtle then all of a sudden it comes to life, usually about half way along the slider. I don’t often sharpen globally and tend to prefer to use the Effects module for this.

There’s a number of Develop tools to consider that are not opened by Default, these are found under ‘Show More’. This will give you a Curves tool, though again in Effects you can use the Curves tool in the Tone Enhancer and get greater control through blending options and masking that Develop don’t give you. There is a Transform tool in here too though I find it less useful than the one in LR6.

So I do most of my PP in Effects, particularly if there’s a degree of subtlety needed to manage parts of an image. Anything I do I can save, whether I be in Develop or Effects. This can be done using the ‘Save Preset’ button below the Opacity slider on the right. This lets you come back to any adjustments and select them like the presets provided by On1. You can add one of the On1 presets and adjust it however you want then save that as your own too. Don’t forget the sync tool if you’re processing a group of images the same way.

In each filter panel is a gear icon to access the blending and protection options. The masking option is the real improvement for 2018. The extra control this provides is the element of the updated program I’m most excited about. The update means there’s also more masking tools at your disposal tool so this update is a very good one to be getting into.

In Effects the Textures tool is handy for replacing skies or merging of photos similar to doing it in Layers. There is less control than in Layers but you are working on the RAW file as opposed to a TIFF or PSD. I create my own textures BTW and you can add them by using the ‘import’ button in the Textures filter.

I don’t use the Layers panel a lot however there is a lot of control available in Layers and you can go to and from the Develop and Effects modules as you need to. This is where I mentioned the decision to use or not use Smart files. There’s a couple of video examples on this that will explain it better but if you’ve got plenty of hard drive space and are okay with a slightly slower workflow then it won’t matter.

Righto, I ended up writing a novel, so sorry about that and the lack of proof reading (grammar errors and typos will no doubt be present).

One thing I’d like to point out is that On1 have some different ways to Lightroom when it comes to achieving what you want. The Highlight recovery could be one of those things that will be less effective than LR but by using low opacity masking you might not need to run through more than one program to minimise that problem. I’d provide them feedback on that shortfall though as they’re keen on working with their customers via feedback to improve the program.

Tas

---------- Post added 11-14-17 at 18:34 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(1) Ability to open and correctly process RAW files from cameras that (as yet) have no defined profile. Lightroom is great at this... So long as the Adobe DNG Converter is capable of converting a file to DNG format, Lightroom will open it. Corel's Aftershot Pro (another package I own) fails in this regard - if the EXIF data presents a camera not in the supported list, the file won't open. Darkroom is, again, very good at this.
Here's their details on camera support: ON1 Photo RAW 2017.6 and 2018 - Compatible File Types and Supported Cameras ? ON1 Support I don't know if that will be what you're seeking in regard to this aspect.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(2) Hot pixel correction (preferably automatic). I shoot several older cameras, some of which do not have dead pixel mapping. With Lightroom, any dead pixels are automatically dealt with when the file is opened. Darkroom has a feature that works quite well but requires a little more work (it's not quite so automatic)
Unfortunately I've not seen this in On1, but it's bee suggested for inclusion and is 'Under review' as identified here: Automatic hot pixel / dead pixel removal – ON1, Inc. You could add your voice here too, and while you're there add it to the Pentax Pixel Shift suggestion as well: Pentax Pixel shift – ON1, Inc. (NOTE: I'm in their Plus program at the moment and will ask about Pixel Shift and why the link has trashed in it)

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(3) High ISO colour noise reduction. Lightroom's colour noise reduction is the best I have come across, and is capable of removing colour noise without leaving green and magenta blotches - even for high ISO images.
I think LR6 noise reduction is still ahead of the On1 implementation of NR. I haven't processed a high ISO image in the 2018 version yet so it might have improved.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(4) Masked sharpening. I often leave a reasonable amount of luminance noise in my images, as it helps to preserve detail. Thus, when I'm sharpening, I want the ability to mask everything except defined detail... I don't want to sharpen everything globally. Lightroom is excellent for this, and Darkroom is pretty capable too.
I'm like you in this aspect, I sharpen where I want to, not everywhere. On1 leaves LR6 for dead in this aspect. There is masked sharpening in the Develop module, but if you do sharpening in the Effects module you have some really flexible masking options to add sharpening wherever and how ever you want.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(5) Highlight and shadow recovery. Whilst not absolutely essential, I find Lightroom's highlight and shadow recovery to be really excellent. Many alternatives are lacking in this respect.
Again the Develop module is one way of doing this and this is where it is often compared with Lightroom. Simply though, I think that On1 has a way to go in highlight recovery though I'm very happy with how shadow recovery works. Having said this I must admit that if I think it's only working so well in the Develop module I"ll utilise other areas like the curves in the tone enhance in Effects to give me a lot more control.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(6) Copying settings from one image to multiple other images. Essential for me. E.g. copying fine-tuned white balance and tone curve settings from the first processed image to all other images from the same series.
On1 call this Snycing, and you can do exactly as you require. You can also save your work as a preset for another time that's more flexible than the version found in Lightroom.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(7) Simple lens corrections. Whilst I like Lightroom's facility for profile lens corrections, most of the time I prefer to handle simple barrel or pincushion distortion manually, since I can choose to partially correct or over-correct. Darkroom doesn't allow this, and it's a real bug-bear for me.
Yeah, Lightroom is good for this, unfortunately they've not installed that ability in On1 that I know of. It could be also under review though as I'd imagine you're not on your Pat Malone in wanting to apply adjustments yourself.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(8) Library management. Lightroom's cataloguing facilities are excellent, providing all the flexibility I need (and then some). Any replacement either needs to offer some degree of similar functionality, or work in tandem with other tools that can fulfill the library role.
The Browse module is pretty good and many of the tools from Lightroom are there, though maybe not everything. Also check out the link in my previous post to the OP on this aspect.

Okay, that's two novels in a row, I'm off to burn my dinner. Pity I"m having salad.

Tas
11-14-2017, 06:30 AM - 1 Like   #9
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I've been using ON1 2017 for a while and installed the "final" version of ON1 2018 last week. My immediate reaction is that it's much more finicky with regard to RAM than the earlier version. With 6GB of RAM, ON1 2017 worked on my Mac with no problems. ON1 2018 crashed with the same configuration (I know they recommend 8GB minimum!). I just upgraded to 32GB of RAM and all crashing problems have gone away. Overall, I think the masking capabilities of ON1 2018 blow LR out of the water. I'll post more as I come up to speed on the latest version.
11-14-2017, 09:20 AM - 1 Like   #10
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Have you thought about Capture 1? That is what I am switching to.
11-14-2017, 09:40 AM - 1 Like   #11
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I fall into the semi-pro category and I find Lightroom meets my needs very well. I shoot very large batches of photos and need to process them quickly which and non destructively. I will go to an event and shoot anywhere from 500 - 1000 shots and need to get them all ready in a few days, in between my other jobs. Lightroom is an excellent tool for me. But for some people who don't need all the features, something else
might work better.
If I wasn't shooting that many shots, I may well look for something else. I agree that Lightroom has become a slow running resource hog. ON 1 does look intriguing, as does Luminar and other offerings lately. I think the only way to determine whether something will work is to try it. I got into using Lightroom a couple of years after making the film-digital jump so I have been using it a long time. I happen to like the subscription model but everyone is different in their views. In switching to something else besides CC, you also need to consider how whatever you are going to compares to the complete package including Photoshop, not just Lightroom alone.
11-14-2017, 07:26 PM   #12
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What made Capture One a good replacement for Lightroom?

QuoteOriginally posted by derelict Quote
Have you thought about Capture 1? That is what I am switching to.
I dabbled with a trial version of Capture One (v9) last year. I was impressed by its range of editing functions. But found its interface tough to get a few things done during my trial period. I've not used v10 though.

Phase One is one of the major players in RAW editors. The latest review I've seen for Capture One Pro positions it at "extremely high-end level of image editing". Capture One Pro Review 2017: The Gold Standard for RAW Editing?

It was almost three times the price of ON1.

That said, I'd love to devote a few months relearning Capture One Pro to write about its merits vis a vis Lightroom following my current assignment.

What features attracted you to Capture One over Lightroom, BTW?

---------- Post added 11-14-17 at 07:52 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
...I find Lightroom meets my needs very well. I shoot very large batches of photos and need to process them quickly which and non destructively. I will go to an event and shoot anywhere from 500 - 1000 shots and need to get them all ready in a few days, in between my other jobs...I agree that Lightroom has become a slow running resource hog. ON 1 does look intriguing, as does Luminar and other offerings lately. ... I happen to like the subscription model but everyone is different in their views. In switching to something else besides CC, you also need to consider how whatever you are going to compares to the complete package including Photoshop, not just Lightroom alone.
If you are comfortable with the Adobe Creative Cloud subscription model, the status quo makes sense to me, too. There's no new training involved as well

I also take your point about comparisons' should include Photoshop and Lightroom as a complete package is a good one, especially with respect to layers and luminosity masks which seem absent (by design) in Lightroom.

I see the series as instructive rather than a formal shoot-out. For example, I have no intention of purging Lightroom from my system, yet.
11-15-2017, 06:22 AM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnhilvert Quote
I dabbled with a trial version of Capture One (v9) last year. I was impressed by its range of editing functions. But found its interface tough to get a few things done during my trial period. I've not used v10 though.

Phase One is one of the major players in RAW editors. The latest review I've seen for Capture One Pro positions it at "extremely high-end level of image editing". Capture One Pro Review 2017: The Gold Standard for RAW Editing?

It was almost three times the price of ON1.

That said, I'd love to devote a few months relearning Capture One Pro to write about its merits vis a vis Lightroom following my current assignment.

What features attracted you to Capture One over Lightroom, BTW?[COLOR="Silver"]
I am not into the subscription model of Adobe. Also, Capture 1 allows me to do LR style photo 'developing' as well as basic manipulation that would require me to use two different programs in Adobe.
11-15-2017, 08:19 PM - 1 Like   #14
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I moved away from Lightroom almost immediately after buying version 6, which was a joke and the sign that Adobe had no intention of actually keeping LR out of the subscription mode.

For my use, it wasn't a huge deal, as I had been cataloguing with a dedicated DAM software even before I started using LR, and LR never had the features in their catalog for me to replace my software.

At the time I jumped out of LR6, my choices came down to Capture 1 and DxO Optics Pro. I went with DxO. It is currently my software of choice, but I did purchase On1 at the promise that it might offer some of the workflow benefits I was missing from LR; DxO is really great on individual images, but I find it a bit more challenging when working through a photoshoot as syncing edits is not as straight forward as LR. On1 seemed like it was aiming to be a LR replacement, and I naively bought it. But, I found it to be much more of a resource hog than even LR. It was constantly trying to cache images, and the user interface was a bit basic for my liking. I've installed 2018 as a demo, but it crashes on open almost no matter what I do. I've not been able to use it. I'm struggling to get any support, and I want a refund on it.

I commend the original poster for the task he wants to take, but I'm not too optimistic, and the fact that On1 has all these ambitious ideas that seem to fall flat or stall on, would make me hesitant to go through the same effort. I'll stick with DxO for now, although I have to say that their recent update is a bit half-baked in its use of control points and additional features. Too many developers are trying to paste on features rather than truly integrate them.
11-16-2017, 05:39 PM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
(7) Simple lens corrections. Whilst I like Lightroom's facility for profile lens corrections, most of the time I prefer to handle simple barrel or pincushion distortion manually, since I can choose to partially correct or over-correct
Mate, if I didn't have eyes I'd think I was blind. In the Develop module under 'Lens Corrections' is a slider marked 'Distortion' to correct pin cushion and barrel distortion. You have a choice of lens profiles, DIY or a combo.

Sorry about that Chief!
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