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11-23-2017, 04:38 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by following.eric Quote
ya I run lightroom on my mac and when I edit I just drag the program over to the second screen and edit from there.

Does make sense that the adobe rgb in lightroom on a wide gamut would look difference than my mac. If lets say I am editing a file on the external monitor and I drag the porgram back to the macbook the colours, blacks, and hues change. I suppose that would make sense given the lack of gamut.

I did look at images later on, after my eyes had adjusted and when viewing the photos on the mac without the external monitor to compare, I did notice an increase in saturation and similar colours to what I was viewing before. I think not comparing the two will be a must when editing and second allow my eyes to adjust before I switch monitors.
You may be thinking too much about the differences you observe. It may be easier to just accept the fact that your monitors will never match exactly and that one has the wider gamut and is therefore able to display colour that the other clips.

When you calibrate to D65, gamma of 2.2, suitable luminence and lowest black level this does not mean that each monitor will reach these standards but the process of calibration will reveal how close/far off each monitor is and this is what is recorded in the monitor profile. This information is what is used by a colour savvy app. such as LR and PS to display the data correctly.

As far as what Lightroom or ACR does it is not really neccessary to understand what is happening under the hood, but as there seems to be some confusion you may find this of help (or even more confusing )

  • LR designed to simplify colour management and you should not be concerned about working spaces as they are handled automatically. The only time that you do need to think is on output to a specific device where conversion would be required.
  • LR uses its own internal colour space using the ProPhoto RGB coordinates but using a linear gamma of 1.0 (ProPhoto has a gamma of 1.8). The reason for ProPhoto coordinates and a linear gamma is to hold all the data that your camera can capture.
  • What you actually see when editing raw data in the Develop module is not a view in ProPhoto RGB or Adobe RGB but an image with a TRC (tonal response curve) similar to sRGB with an assumed gamma fo 2.2.
    The ProPhoto coordinates and linear gamma are only used internally to calculate the manipulation of the raw data prior to rendering



Last edited by TonyW; 11-23-2017 at 05:01 AM.
11-26-2017, 09:30 AM   #17
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So I have had more of an opportunity to play around with the new screen.

I used it to make some new edits and to run some new edits on older pics I had. I think the screen looks amazing, colours are nice, contrast is nice. better than working on my small mac screen.

However my new edits and saved as jpegs look off now when I view them on the mac. where I think the image looks good on the new screen is obviously less contrasty, less saturated and shadows seem brighter.

i understand that photos will look better on the new monitor, higher 2k versus 720p, wide gamut versus mac srdg profiles. So I get that it will always look better on the better screen. But i am a bit more concerned that my work will look not as nice across the average web for people viewing with inferior monitors. If most people are viewing on laptops I have a feeling they will all look under saturated and over exposed and with low contrast

I even let my eyes adjust. Went and did a food shop, came back and look at the same images on the mac without having looked at them on the external monitor and I still feel the same way.

I understand colour management is a big topic and very in depth. so how does someone manage their edits and images so they look good across most platforms.

If I edit on the new monitor and them upload to a website where most people wont be seeing it on a wide gamut new monitor, my work would not look as good. How do you manage that?
11-26-2017, 10:47 AM   #18
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You are not able to control how others see your images via the web, never mind the fact that they may only have a standard gamut (sRGB or less) monitor, many will not have calibrated monitors with luminence up too high and less than ideal viewing conditions (web browsing without colour management or colour management not enabled) that is just a fact of life.

Your edits should not really look off though on other systems, in fact they should appear fine (maybe no the subtlety of colour but..) and if they are looking under saturated, over exposed and low contrast this would suggest that your colour management workflow may be at fault and you may care to check:

1. Your monitor calibration. If your monitor is set either too dark or too light for the ambient editing viewing conditions then you will find a tendency to compensate in your editing and in turn others may look at your image on a 'normal' as being too dark or too light. Keep in mind the 'no control' of viewing conditions of others already mentioned.

2. As a matter of interest what standards have you set for monitor calibration for:
White Point (D65, D50 or other) ?
Gamma?
Brightness / Luminence in cd/M2 ?
Have you looked at the information I provided in the link for Lagom?
If not you may find it informative LCD monitor test images

3. I think you are using Lightroom for your editing and output so what setting are you using for JPEGS?
I suspect that you may be outputting your JPEG's with embedded Adobe RGB set. If you want all to see colour as closely as you on the web then the safest bet is to output JPEG as sRGB tagged.

When I look at an sRGB image on my main monitor which is close to 100% Adobe RGB and view it on the sRGB monitor next to it I see no differences that is what you should be seeing
11-26-2017, 02:09 PM   #19
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I have checked the export and it's color space is set to sRGB. I have re-calibrated with lower brightness, increased brightness and similar results. I thought viewing the image on my macbook with decreased saturation could be the result of increased bright next so I lower my mac brightness but it didn't change the look or saturation on the image. If I open both jpeg with sRGB color space exported from lightroom on the two monitors, one is less contrast and less saturation and the other looks like a match to the same screen that image was edited on.

I have look through my monitor but it doesnt appear I can select a white point. I can manually select 2.2 for gamma which is default and I can select color between native and srgb but the only difference seems to be brightness. When I run my spyder5 express software it doesnt allow me to slect anything. it just auto calibrates. on the last calibration on the external monitor I set contrast to 50% and brightness to 50% to try and be neutral. I have no idea out of a 100 where each should be when I calibrate. and on my mac its the usual brightness meter. so I set it to 75% and calibrated.

I did also look at the website you sent me but its beyond me. Just looks scientific. I understand my images may look different elsewhere in the world. and I understadn my wide gamut display can display more color than the macbook. I just want my exports to look similar. or similar enough that when I am on the road I can still use my mac to edit and when I am home I can use the external monitor to edit without having crazy differences between the two.

some have suggested it is because my calibration system isnt equipemed to match screens or the spyder5 pro and colormunki have a feature to match screen?

11-27-2017, 03:32 AM   #20
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Hi

I have not read the whole thread from beginning to end, so I don't know if this was mentioned already:

As far as printing is concerned you need to have a printer profile (ICM) which is in tune with your display. You would need an ICM profile for every type paper which you will be using. A good profiling system will let you establish a printer profile to match your screen after profiling.

During the print setup in preferences the automatic print mode, the one the printer manufacturer supplied to let the printer handle colour management, should (must) be to turn off which will then reset to "custom". Now that you are in custom print mode you must go to the colour tab and select from the list the appropriate ICM profile. (The one you have established to mach your screen output. (You usually give it a name for identification). Now your prints will look very much like what you see on screen. (If you have done everything correctly). If the "darks" are too dark on screen they will be too dark on the print for example.

I know a fair amount of people miss this step and complain about poor print quality.

Cheers
11-27-2017, 04:44 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by following.eric Quote
I have checked the export and it's color space is set to sRGB. I have re-calibrated with lower brightness, increased brightness and similar results. I thought viewing the image on my macbook with decreased saturation could be the result of increased bright next so I lower my mac brightness but it didn't change the look or saturation on the image. If I open both jpeg with sRGB color space exported from lightroom on the two monitors, one is less contrast and less saturation and the other looks like a match to the same screen that image was edited on.
Looking at the same sRGB JPEG on two different screens should give a very similar look, but there are caveats
1. Both screens should have a visual appearance that matches for both hue and brightness. Brightness settings will affect the perceived saturation
2. Viewing the two images on two monitors side by side must be done using the same application e.g. a version of Firefox duplicated on each screen

QuoteQuote:
I have look through my monitor but it doesnt appear I can select a white point. I can manually select 2.2 for gamma which is default and I can select color between native and srgb but the only difference seems to be brightness. When I run my spyder5 express software it doesnt allow me to slect anything. it just auto calibrates. on the last calibration on the external monitor I set contrast to 50% and brightness to 50% to try and be neutral. I have no idea out of a 100 where each should be when I calibrate. and on my mac its the usual brightness meter. so I set it to 75% and calibrated.

I did also look at the website you sent me but its beyond me. Just looks scientific. I understand my images may look different elsewhere in the world. and I understadn my wide gamut display can display more color than the macbook. I just want my exports to look similar. or similar enough that when I am on the road I can still use my mac to edit and when I am home I can use the external monitor to edit without having crazy differences between the two.
Ok, I see now that there are some limitations to the Spyder Express software in terms of setting specifics and measuring adjustments (this is only I believe a software package limitation not hardware as that is the same across all packages). Still there is no reason at this time to believe that you cannot get a satisfactory profile with just a little work on your part. Should you want to go for a more advance software then you could upgrade (at a cost!) to the Datacolour software such as Spyder Pro or Elite.

However there is a very well respected alternative that offer a great many options for you to think about in the future it is called DIsplayCal (I believe free) DisplayCAL (formerly known as dispcalGUI)?Open Source Display Calibration and Characterization powered by ArgyllCMS

The LCD monitor test images website is IMO an important step for you to understand how and why your display needs to look a particular way and TBH needs no scientific knowledge. To get an idea of what a good display should look like I suggest that you revisit and look at the following test pages in particular, Contrast, Black Level and White Saturation. Each of these has an explanation of what to look for and a suggestion how you can adjust your monitor to get the best - just scroll down and read the comments

I also think it important that you realise what you are doing with your Spyder and monitors. It may be considered semantics but... Calibration is the act of setting your monitor to a known condition. However there are limitations imposed by the software and possibly the monitor that makes precise calibration settings somewhat difficult. So what is happening is you choose the monitor setting via the OSD menu and the Spyder reads the screen and builds your monitor ICC profile - the part that should accurately describe your monitors condition (at the time of calibration only!). Remember if you adjust your monitors settings in any way via the OSD menu then your ICC profile is no longer valid as conditions have changed - so you would need to run the software again to profile for the new condition.

A suggestion for initial monitor settings as it does not appear that you can alter them using RGB controls etc
White Point - Use Native this will ensure that you are using your monitor at its optimum i.e. not restricting it to a smaller gamut
Gamma - 2.2 (for both Mac and PC)
Brightness - Ignore any percentage settings via the OSD (they are not the same between vendors and even between monitors of the same type) but judge brightness by what you need to see on screen. Look at the Lagom images as a starting point or use one of the many excellent test charts available online. Be aware that these are only starting points if you are intending to go for a Print to Screen match and may need tailoring to suit later

---------- Post added 11-27-17 at 05:13 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Schraubstock Quote
Hi

I have not read the whole thread from beginning to end, so I don't know if this was mentioned already:

As far as printing is concerned you need to have a printer profile (ICM) which is in tune with your display. You would need an ICM profile for every type paper which you will be using. A good profiling system will let you establish a printer profile to match your screen after profiling.

During the print setup in preferences the automatic print mode, the one the printer manufacturer supplied to let the printer handle colour management, should (must) be to turn off which will then reset to "custom". Now that you are in custom print mode you must go to the colour tab and select from the list the appropriate ICM profile. (The one you have established to mach your screen output. (You usually give it a name for identification). Now your prints will look very much like what you see on screen. (If you have done everything correctly). If the "darks" are too dark on screen they will be too dark on the print for example.

I know a fair amount of people miss this step and complain about poor print quality.

Cheers
While it is correct to say that you need an ICC/ICM profile the notion that the profile is in any way 'in tune' with a display is incorrect. An ICC paper profile knows nothing about any monitor display as it can only describe a printers characteristics for the particular paper and the manufacturers inkset. When you are soft proofing and apply the particular ICC profile for the printer and paper you are using the application software adjust the look of the display to simulate that of the paper (a reason why you must have a correctly calibrated and profiled display - particularly luminence).

All (good) paper manufacturers will supply individual ICC profiles for their range of papers with a particular printer with the assumption that the manufacturers inkset is being used. Most manufacturers profile I have seen are pretty good although it is possible to get a more accurate profile by doing your own. This will take into account your own printers specific characteristics which may be somewhat removed from the 'average' printer of that type. This will involve some time and a not inconsiderable amount of money to purchase the equipment.

It is generally better to turn off printer manages colour and let your application handle colour management but you will still select the manufacturers paper profile.

The most common cause of prints being too dark is down to the fact that your monitor luminence setting is too high for your editing and print viewing conditions resulting in you making edits that try to compensate for this fault.
11-27-2017, 06:32 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW Quote
While it is correct to say that you need an ICC/ICM profile the notion that the profile is in any way 'in tune' with a display is incorrect. An ICC paper profile knows nothing about any monitor display as it can only describe a printers characteristics for the particular paper and the manufacturers inkset.
I may not expressed myself correctly.

A good profiling system should have three profiling routines.

1) Profile Printer
2) Profile Display
3) Match Printer to Display

First do No. 1) and 2)
Then follow with No. 3)

No. 3) (Match Printer to Display) reads or evaluates screen colours with a reader attached to the screen and next uses this information to print a set of colour swatches with the request to turn off default printer colour management. In other words it uses its own colour values just read from the screen and not the printer's default values. Next a color densitometer is moved over the test prints, which were just created, to obtain colour information from it and with this information the profiling system calculates a print profile. If different inks and different paper is used (I often do) separate printer profiles for each must be performed for best results.

In my experience default paper manufacturers' or profiles supplied by the printer manufacturer are not the best way to always achieve satisfactory results as conditions can often change over time.They do happen, inks for example can change near their useby date. I also use 3rd party inks from time to time , another reason to create a fresh profile. Monitors need to be regularly calibrated as well. For this reason I create my own printer profiles and by the above method have never been disappointed.

So the above method actually reads the screen output and builds a printer profile from it, so both printer and screen are in tune and "read from the same songbook". It also means if the screen or the printer is not properly calibrated before hand your prints won't come out good either. Everything has to be in tune, this is what I meant to say. I try not use supplied profiles.

I don't know any better way to do it to be honest.

Cheers
11-27-2017, 07:59 AM - 2 Likes   #23
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Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying but it looks like you are including/confusing the profiling of the monitor in the process. The monitor must be calibrated and profiled of course but the printer and paper is a stand alone entity in its own right and its profile does not change based on screen display

This appears to be incorrect:
QuoteQuote:
No. 3) (Match Printer to Display) reads or evaluates screen colours with a reader attached to the screen and next uses this information to print a set of colour swatches with the request to turn off default printer colour management. In other words it uses its own colour values just read from the screen and not the printer's default values. Next a color densitometer is moved over the test prints, which were just created, to obtain colour information from it and with this information the profiling system calculates a print profile. If different inks and different paper is used (I often do) separate printer profiles for each must be performed for best results.
Professional Print calibration packages do not read anything from the screen (that I know of!) there is no point the screen has its own characteristics as does the printer. All you are doing in both cases is characterisation of both devices.

1. You first print a test swatch generated by the profiling software that has not been altered in any way with colour management turned off. This has nothing to do with the sensor measuring the screen values as that is purely monitor calibration.

2. After allowing an appropriate time for the print to dry you run you spectrophotometer over the printed colour patches. The resulting data is compared to the known values and the profile can be built to take account of variance. AFAIK there is no way to actually calibrate any inkjet printer all you can do is characterise it

What calibration device and system are you using?

A colour managed system comprises of

1. Monitor calibration and the resulting ICC profile. This profile records the characteristics of the monitor. It is this characterisation that enables the monitor to display image data correctly in a colour savvy application such as PS or LR. This is the fundamental part of colour management, get this wrong and the rest falls apart.

2. In your application select Soft Proofing and the paper profile either your own or the canned manufacturers. Modern profiles from major manufacturers are in my experience very good indeed.


Last edited by TonyW; 11-27-2017 at 09:39 AM.
11-27-2017, 09:42 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by following.eric Quote
If I open both jpeg with sRGB color space exported from lightroom on the two monitors, one is less contrast and less saturation and the other looks like a match to the same screen that image was edited on.
If your jpeg image is tagged sRGB it should look pretty similar on your Wide gamut monitor and your mac airbook as long as you are viewing both in a colour managed application and both screens have been profiled. Perhaps worth checking the settings of Lightroom on your mac, and your mac itself to see if there is a colour management setting that is not right.

Have a look at this website PHOTOSHOP COLOR MANAGEMENT TUTORIALS Adobe CS CC Photoshop Troubleshooting Professional Photo Shop Training WorkFlows It has a load of stuff including rollover test images which you can use to determine if there is a problem with your settings. You need to be looking at the website in a colour managed browser such as Firefox where the colour management has been set in "about:config" to gfx.color_management.mode Value 1. There is a page on the website that explains this.

Also try this, upload your jpeg to a hosting site like Flickr, then view the image in a colour managed browser on both screens.
11-27-2017, 11:28 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
If your jpeg image is tagged sRGB it should look pretty similar on your Wide gamut monitor and your mac airbook as long as you are viewing both in a colour managed application and both screens have been profiled. Perhaps worth checking the settings of Lightroom on your mac, and your mac itself to see if there is a colour management setting that is not right.

Have a look at this website PHOTOSHOP COLOR MANAGEMENT TUTORIALS Adobe CS CC Photoshop Troubleshooting Professional Photo Shop Training WorkFlows It has a load of stuff including rollover test images which you can use to determine if there is a problem with your settings. You need to be looking at the website in a colour managed browser such as Firefox where the colour management has been set in "about:config" to gfx.color_management.mode Value 1. There is a page on the website that explains this.

Also try this, upload your jpeg to a hosting site like Flickr, then view the image in a colour managed browser on both screens.
I found that in lightroom the same photos looks different. and exported to Jpeg and view in mac preview show a difference even in the jpeg files

thanks for the infor will research now this site.
11-27-2017, 11:40 AM   #26
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There is a possibility that there is an issue with Mac preview. I do not know if this is general so take info with some caution
Bug? macOS Sierra Preview/Quick Look issues with rendering colors of images when using any icc profile other than the macOS standard - Ask Different

In any case you should use the same application to view not two different applications e.g. Firefox opened as two instances
11-27-2017, 12:37 PM   #27
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As an example of how colour management can fall apart I can tell you my discovery using Windows 7

When i got my wide gamut monitor I profiled it. All good. As long as I view in a colour managed application: firefox; photoshop; Lightroom; any image will be displayed correctly whether tagged sRGB or AdobeRGB. Now outside of those applications if I simply click on an image file it will display in the default Windows Photo Viewer. Which must also be colour managed as they display correctly too, unless I select "slideshow" in the Windows Photo Viewer. Now the pictures display in full screen and are clearly not colour managed as any sRGB photos have oversaturated colours. The same problem applies to the screensaver option. So if I want a picture to be part of my screensaver collection I need to make sure it is tagged AdobeRGB and it displays correctly.

I think your problem may not be too different from this.
11-27-2017, 03:08 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
As an example of how colour management can fall apart I can tell you my discovery using Windows 7

When i got my wide gamut monitor I profiled it. All good. As long as I view in a colour managed application: firefox; photoshop; Lightroom; any image will be displayed correctly whether tagged sRGB or AdobeRGB. Now outside of those applications if I simply click on an image file it will display in the default Windows Photo Viewer. Which must also be colour managed as they display correctly too, unless I select "slideshow" in the Windows Photo Viewer. Now the pictures display in full screen and are clearly not colour managed as any sRGB photos have oversaturated colours. The same problem applies to the screensaver option. So if I want a picture to be part of my screensaver collection I need to make sure it is tagged AdobeRGB and it displays correctly.

I think your problem may not be too different from this.
i am leaning towards a software issue and not so much a calibration issue. I used Display call to calibrate the macbook, the app is currently calibrating the viewsonic monitor as we speak. The software seems much more thought out. Only thing is at the begining is asks you to adjust the greens,blues and red to match the middle of the slider. only problem is macs dont let you do it. i was able to adjust individual colours on the view sonic until they lined up in the middle as the software wants and then it gave me a green message saying it was in the right position.

But as for the software issue, I often use spacebar to preview photos from the folder, quick way to view photos. and I open one photo I knew has been very different on the monitors and its look more like it should have. Saturation seemed back and shadows darker. I then opened the file up to view it in preview and for a split second I saw the old image (un saturated lack of contast) and in a blink of an eye it was replaced by a much much contraty image (to be honest over contrast, blacks very rough looking) almost the opposite to what I have been dealing with. some images are alright and better than before and some the contrast when viewed fully open seem over contrast, but when i just use space bar to quick view the contrast seems fine.

According to some mac forums people have been having trouble with mac apps not running well with custom ICC profiles made by calibrators.
Bug? macOS Sierra Preview/Quick Look issues with rendering colors of images when using any icc profile other than the macOS standard - Ask Different

also interesting side note. When Display call finishes a calibration it tells your your screens color gamut. Macbook air apparently has 57% sRGB while my viewsonic matched exactly with the box at 87% Abode RGB

May be after all a mac glitch and not even a calibration issue, which raises a another issue, even with a calibration device, you may not actually be calibrated right if the software can do the job.
11-27-2017, 03:35 PM - 1 Like   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by following.eric Quote
I often use spacebar to preview photos from the folder, quick way to view photos. and I open one photo I knew has been very different on the monitors and its look more like it should have. Saturation seemed back and shadows darker. I then opened the file up to view it in preview
Again in Windows , the folder views are not colour managed. I would suggest you avoid any folder or preview mode views unless you know 100% it is colour managed. View only in Lightroom or some other managed software.

What exactly is "preview" ?
11-27-2017, 03:42 PM   #30
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viewsonic finished calibrating with the displaycal software. Started running some test. Anything view in preview by mac has clipped blacks and bad contrast. Which is consistent with the link posted on the last message.

I opened up the same image both in chrome (which I think is colour managed) and the same jpeg looked, to me, pretty darn close. Or acceptably close. i tried a few others and from jpegs views in chrome side by side with the browser I would say it will work for me.

I then followed by opening lightroom and have the same image displayed on both and they looked again very similar and played with some edits and results looked close enough. The onyl differences I see is a bit more colour from the view sonic (should be expected as the macbook is only 56% sRGB) and the greens on the macbook are a bit more intense than the viewsonice, but as said before when i ran displaycal, the Blue and Red where under the suggested mark and the green was way over. So i think the slight green increase on the mac is related to that. if I could some how lower the green and re calibrate I think it would be even closer.

Only thing I did notice after running a check test on Displaycal is the viewsonic seems to be running at 7500k (not sure how to lower that) and the mac appears to be running at 6500.
I do notice when I am looking at the forum page for instance the macbook does appear more yellow than the view sonic which seems much more blue. But does seem to affect the images I was comparing before.

advice for maybe how to adjust the macbook so I can recalibrate?

---------- Post added 11-27-17 at 03:54 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
Again in Windows , the folder views are not colour managed. I would suggest you avoid any folder or preview mode views unless you know 100% it is colour managed. View only in Lightroom or some other managed software.

What exactly is "preview" ?
preview, its macs default image viewer.
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