[stevebrot]

In Photo Paint (current version that comes with Corel Draw), its grayed out. It was grayed out in Photoshop before ancient pre-CS version 6.

That is what I referred to above and is information that is not generally published. I no longer purchase Corel products because the 16-bit support is spotty. I also don't recommend Elements for the same reason.

Will it let me edit TIFFs from my scanner in the ProPhoto space?

This is complicated. Solutions vary by tool and are often not obvious on initial exploration. I will use Affinity Photo as an example since I have v1.6.4.104 installed:

• The default global color profile (sRGB) may be user overridden. I have ProPhoto RGB installed on my computer and as a result it is available as a selection for this purpose. The global default is used when a profile is not embedded or otherwise stipulated.
• A color profile may be user-assigned on new document creation. (Document is not the same as file and is loosely the same as a project.)
• Documents created from files having embedded profiles may use the embedded profile
• There is a configuration option to assign (coerce) to the current working space profile when a file is opened. (How this works out, I don't know...don't use this feature.)
• A document's profile may be changed at any time
• Profiles may be embedded on export

It was this flexibility with color management that helped sell me on the Affinity product, that and no 16-bit surprises (at least so fat). In practice, I use the "edit-in" feature of Lightroom to create a TIFF with embedded ProPhoto RGB which is passed to Affinity Photo. Saved edits by Affinity are actionable in LR in real time using the virtual copy feature such that both tools are live with LR having oversight. Very cool and part of how the catalogue works.

Other tools offer similar, but it is often not straightforward. I also have Corel PaintShop Pro X6 installed. It appears to offer a color managed environment, but was not able to consistently leverage the feature for consistent display outside of PSP.


Steve

[rdenney]

That is what I referred to above and is information that is not generally published. I no longer purchase Corel products because the 16-bit support is spotty. I also don't recommend Elements for the same reason.



This is complicated. Solutions vary by tool and are often not obvious on initial exploration. I will use Affinity Photo as an example since I have v1.6.4.104 installed:

• The default global color profile (sRGB) may be user overridden. I have ProPhoto RGB installed on my computer and as a result it is available as a selection for this purpose. The global default is used when a profile is not embedded or otherwise stipulated.
• A color profile may be user-assigned on new document creation. (Document is not the same as file and is loosely the same as a project.)
• Documents created from files having embedded profiles may use the embedded profile
• There is a configuration option to assign (coerce) to the current working space profile when a file is opened. (How this works out, I don't know...don't use this feature.)
• A document's profile may be changed at any time
• Profiles may be embedded on export

It was this flexibility with color management that helped sell me on the Affinity product, that and no 16-bit surprises (at least so fat). In practice, I use the "edit-in" feature of Lightroom to create a TIFF with embedded ProPhoto RGB which is passed to Affinity Photo. Saved edits by Affinity are actionable in LR in real time using the virtual copy feature such that both tools are live with LR having oversight. Very cool and part of how the catalogue works.

Other tools offer similar, but it is often not straightforward. I also have Corel PaintShop Pro X6 installed. It appears to offer a color managed environment, but was not able to consistently leverage the feature for consistent display outside of PSP.


Steve

Thank you—that’s exactly the sort of thing I’m looking for. It does not cross Affinity off the list, if it can be used with a different raw processor.

I had thought all the products by this time would support 16-bit color depth in all their editing features. But seeing the Photo Paint did not shook my faith in that expectation. PSP was the “consumer” product in the past, so I would expect it to offer less that Photo Paint. I routinely used Photo Paint back when everything was 8-bit color depth—20-25 years ago. I’d lost touch with it, but since it came with my Draw update, I took a look.

I’m interested in hearing from On1 users, too. I realize the product is still in the emergent stage, but most reviews address a somewhat different set of needs and requirements.

Rick “appreciative” Denney

[Tas]

I spent two solid hours during a layover in Newark yesterday reading about On1 and could not find the answer to whether it will do unsharp masking in 16 bits. I could not find any reasonable listing of the cameras it supports. I could not find out if it supports the ProPhoto color space. I did find out that it has color-managed printer preview.

G'day mate, I can help you answer these specific questions.

The list of cameras supported can be found here: ON1 Photo RAW 2017.7 and 2018.1 - Compatible File Types and Supported Cameras ? ON1 Support This page also identifies file must be 8 bit or 16 bit.

So far as your other questions go, under the 'Edit' menu you can set file preferences, for example I have On1 set to PSD, Pro Photo, 16 Bit and 300PPI. This preference setting is specified as:

These options determine how photos will be saved when you edit them in Resize or an external editor. A copy of the original is always made in this format.

Note: When you send a photo to Layers it always saves the results in the layered Photoshop PSD format with Adobe RGB 1998 color space. If your original is not a PSD a copy will be made.

Sharpening can be done in a couple of different ways with On1. The first is the detail panel in the Develop module. Personally I rarely use this for other than NR though even then I don't always use NR globally which is how this sharpening/NR option works. For what you seek sharpening should be done in the FX module. This has significantly more control options including unsharp maks.

In FX there are 18 preset sharpening choices in a drop down menu, each of which can be adjusted to suit your personal preference using sliders for amount, controlling of halos and protection for shadows, highlights and/or skin tones. The sharpening options include High Pass, Progressive and Unsharp Mask. Further control options include an eyedropper selection tool or 12 options to choose for selectively applying sharpening based on colour channels and tone. There's also the same blending options available as those in Photoshop as well as selective application using the masking options which includes luminosity masking.

I think On1 is an option worthy of further consideration though I do recommend you review the system requirements to ensure your computer will support the program.

Tas

[rdenney]

Tas, Super! Thank you. There’s a bit of ambiguity in a couple of items, but I think enough to go on.

I see references to sending the image to Photoshop. In your experience, doesOn1 provide image adjustment features like I outlined? Maybe I would not need to depend on Photoshop for the usual photographic manipulations that I make. Maybe Affinity, which seems to be more of a raster editor, would provide that when needed.

Also, I’m assuming lens corrections can be manually done. I do that now and could probably contribute the corrections for a bunch of lenses they don’t have in their list.

Rick “keep those cards and letters coming” Denney

[Tas]

Tas, Super! Thank you. There’s a bit of ambiguity in a couple of items, but I think enough to go on.

I see references to sending the image to Photoshop. In your experience, doesOn1 provide image adjustment features like I outlined? Maybe I would not need to depend on Photoshop for the usual photographic manipulations that I make. Maybe Affinity, which seems to be more of a raster editor, would provide that when needed.

Also, I’m assuming lens corrections can be manually done. I do that now and could probably contribute the corrections for a bunch of lenses they don’t have in their list.

Rick “keep those cards and letters coming” Denney

G'day again Rick,

I'll answer what I can and recommend you ask the On1 people to clarify anything I can't or where you see some ambiguity. BTW, was the ambiguity something that I posted? Answers below in red.

1. Pentax 645z DNG processing. YES

2. Large file support. I haven't tried it with the largest files I've created but it has certainly managed files over 1GB in size.

3. 16-workflow all the way to the printer, including all filters. I believe this is correct, when working on DNG RAW files in Develop and FX the term 16 Bit is in the file name. Unfortunately I can't provide you a definitive answer so I'd recommend contacting On1 to clarify this as then you will know for sure.

4. Fully color-managed. I have my K-1 set for DNG RAW and Adobe RGB colour space and choose to import or just copy/paste into a folder and can work on the DNG RAW in what should be the colour space from camera. For some reason I'm not seeing a colour space on all my files so I will need to ask On1 why this is so. Files imported previously may or may not have the colour space identified which is odd. When exporting you are able to select from 5 colour space options or use your own profile.

5. Happy with the ProPhoto color space from my scanner. I don't see why this would be a problem if they can create files using that colour space though I've no experience with importing a ProPhoto colour space image to confirm this.

6. Full lens corrections. The Lens corrections are I think a little behind what you get in Lightroom but beyond the profiles for auto adjustments there is indeed the ability to make manual adjustments.

7. Powerful luminosity masking. On1 masking is very good, and the latest version has a very flexible luminosity masking tool. It can be applied, inverted, viewed, copied and reset. Application of the luminosity mask can be further controlled using four sliders for density, feather, levels and window. There's also an eye dropper option for a luminosity mask to be applied to a selected colour. Beyond this it is subject to the other masking controls including protections for shadows, highlights and skin tones (mid tones). You can apply blending options, adjust opacity and augment or adjust it using the brush, gradient or masking bug tools.

8. Adjustment layers with transparency control. Yes, there are different modules that will apply here. The first is FX which is working on the RAW file. It uses what are called 'Filters' and I'm not going to list them but lets just say there's a lot and you can add multiple of the same, all are able to be masked and the opacity of each filter can be adjusted globally, via blending and/or a mask. The Layers module this is like using layers in Photoshop on a PSD file. You can make adjustments that are either baked in or changeable, combine photos etc. You can go from Layers into develop and FX so the changes possible in these two modules can be done whilst in Layers. I think that Photoshop is still the best program going for Layers and as you have CS5 you have some good options available to you. I'd be surprised if you would need to use it much though as On1 Layers would easily be a 90-95% solution when you compare the two.

9. Large file merging—16-bit. I've used Layers to combine four K-1 files without any drama. Are these big enough? There are also Pano and HDR merging options. Larger file merging might have some limitations based upon the system it is running on too. Refer to above response regarding 16 bit.

10. Does not force cataloguing. It doesn't but they've recently added some more options for importing that are handy. However as mentioned already if you just want to copy paste from the camera/SD card do so and On1 will recognise them on your system.

11. Works on my computer. Again I'd recommend you compare your system with their recommendations. You may not experience any issues running On1 but I'm trying to improve it working on my system at the moment and have received some guidance from On1 support to do this.

12. Entirely standalone—no cloud requirement. Internet requirement during installation is okay. This is a standalone product that doesn't need the interwebs to do it's thing other than updates and connecting to cloud storage.

13. Purchase model. I have enough monthly bills. You buy the program outright and get updates until the next new release is made which is typically at the end of the year. When Photo RAW 2018 was launched in late November/early December 2017 On1 released a final update for Photo RAW 2017. The best time to buy On1 is, from recent experience, at the end of the year so you get 12 months of updates before your version is superseded.

14. Full raw processing. This is available in the Develop and FX modules. The Layers module creates a PSD copy which is the same approach as going from Lightroom or ACR to Photoshop.

15. Full support for PSD files, including maintaining layers and other features in the file. Yes, this is achievable. Whilst in On1 it is best to create smart layers as any adjustments are then changeable. When you're done working in Layers you save the file and return to the browse module. If you want to work on that PSD file again it will re=open in Layers with files intact. Alternatively you could do the same in Photoshop and the layers will also be intact (Note: I tested this using CS6).

Hopefully that's answered some of your questions and enable you to compare with other member's experiences with some of the other options you're considering.

Tas

[rdenney]

Tas, thank you. That answered my questions well. The ambiguity wasn’t in your previous answer, but in my general ignorance of Lightroom, and the resulting inability to understand Lightroom analogs.

My choice is down to Affinity and On1 at this point, and the best answer may include both.

Affinity Photo wasn’t one I had researched carefully enough, but I have to say their web page provides a clear description of their features relative to my requirements. But it may be clear simply because it is primarily a Photoshop alternative rather than a Lightroom alternative, and some features described in Lightroom terms may not resonate with me. It may provide closer support for how I do things now (relatively few images crafted for prints more than web or prepress).

Thank you for explaining On1’s pricing model. That wasn’t clear from my earlier reading.

Rick “who can now make a more focused investigation” Denney

[Fcsnt54]

Tas, thank you. That answered my questions well. The ambiguity wasn’t in your previous answer, but in my general ignorance of Lightroom, and the resulting inability to understand Lightroom analogs.

My choice is down to Affinity and On1 at this point, and the best answer may include both.

Affinity Photo wasn’t one I had researched carefully enough, but I have to say their web page provides a clear description of their features relative to my requirements. But it may be clear simply because it is primarily a Photoshop alternative rather than a Lightroom alternative, and some features described in Lightroom terms may not resonate with me. It may provide closer support for how I do things now (relatively few images crafted for prints more than web or prepress).

Thank you for explaining On1’s pricing model. That wasn’t clear from my earlier reading.

Rick “who can now make a more focused investigation” Denney

Im using both affinity and On1 for my editing needs, each seem to have their strong points to them, but on average i spend roughly 99% of the time in On1. I was trying to work with both and see which one i liked better, and it was a tough decision when the trial ended that i bought both to see which one i liked better. Overall though im happier with On1 in comparison to affinity, which i hardly touch now. On1 has some great features and im still learning to use it, but it is something that is quick and easy. I love the brush adjustments, which i find easier to use then photoshop. Id love it if i can go back and forth between the two programs but i havent been able to. Id give you a fairer comparison between the two products but unfortunately im unable to with me usin On1 more. I do have to say though, i do wish that with On1 had more lens corrections for medium format but they are lacking in that department so you will need to make your own adjustments.

[Tas]

i do wish that with On1 had more lens corrections for medium format but they are lacking in that department so you will need to make your own adjustments.

I was wondering if you were aware of the open source resource that On1 use for their lens profiles? I've posted about it on the forums before and you can take your own lenses out, capture the required images for referencing and send them to the bloke that develops the lens profiles. I've started working on some but need a dedicated day to get back to it so I can finish them and send them in. I can locate the info for you if you're interested in adding to the Pentax lens profiles.

Alternatively, you can create a preset with only the Develop adjustments which would mean in essence you can create your own lens profiles manually, then save them and use them for each new photo captured with that specific lens. You could add a lens profile folder and add each of your lens profiles in it then you just select the Develop preset specific to the lens used and it will automatically add it for you. In essence it's just like having a profile already loaded and will be just as quick as the auto option. And as presets can be changed it just becomes a step at the start of your workflow.

Tas

[Fcsnt54]

I was wondering if you were aware of the open source resource that On1 use for their lens profiles? I've posted about it on the forums before and you can take your own lenses out, capture the required images for referencing and send them to the bloke that develops the lens profiles. I've started working on some but need a dedicated day to get back to it so I can finish them and send them in. I can locate the info for you if you're interested in adding to the Pentax lens profiles.

Alternatively, you can create a preset with only the Develop adjustments which would mean in essence you can create your own lens profiles manually, then save them and use them for each new photo captured with that specific lens. You could add a lens profile folder and add each of your lens profiles in it then you just select the Develop preset specific to the lens used and it will automatically add it for you. In essence it's just like having a profile already loaded and will be just as quick as the auto option. And as presets can be changed it just becomes a step at the start of your workflow.

Tas

I was not aware, generally i just winged it with the distortion slider. If you dont mind, id like that info so i can help. Its really helpful.

[Tas]

I was not aware, generally i just winged it with the distortion slider. If you dont mind, id like that info so i can help. Its really helpful.

No worries, here's the On1 webpage regarding supported lenses that also contains links on how to contribute images for lens profiling:

Supported Lens Correction Profiles - ON1 Photo RAW ? ON1 Support

Here's the main link: Calibration images upload

This link is available through the previous one, but I added it here as it explains a lot of the background approach and requirements for the database: Lens calibration for Lensfun

There's also the ability to change the embedded lens profiles, the details are here: How to use Lens Correction - ON1 Photo RAW 2017.7 ? ON1 Support Note, the reference to Photo RAW 2017 is just an indication that the steps have not changes since the earlier version.

Tas