? re: value of pixel shift and printed output

wgosma · 03-20-2018, 07:57 AM

Folks,
Can you shed any light on potential improved printed output when using pixel shifted images vs. 'normal' raw image? My 'guess' is that there is no perceptible difference to the eye - in my case I'm printing to max 13 x 19 using LR6 and Epson SureColor P600 printer....so not really very large output.

Thanks/Bill

Adam · 03-20-2018, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by wgosma

Folks,
Can you shed any light on potential improved printed output when using pixel shifted images vs. 'normal' raw image? My 'guess' is that there is no perceptible difference to the eye - in my case I'm printing to max 13 x 19 using LR6 and Epson SureColor P600 printer....so not really very large output.

Thanks/Bill

Dynamic range improvements aside, it would depend on how close you're standing to the print. For a 13x19 you'd have to be pretty much pixel-peeping it. But since PSR does increase the resolution of details within the image, it would technically allow you to print larger, i.e. even exceeding sizes like 20x30.

normhead · 03-20-2018, 09:18 AM - **1 Like**

Pixel shift is an improvement pixel peeping, it's yet to be established what practical value it has in the printing world. The problem being prints big enough to show a difference are expensive to print just to prove a point.

I would go with, it might be better some of the time. It won't be better all of the time. What the percentage breakdown is, is anybody's guess. Even with a 13x19 my guess is if you stand back a few feet and look at the image you won't be able to tell the difference between 100 PPI file and a 300 DPI file. To see fine detail in a print the viewing difference need to be about 8 inches. Few people look that close, and they are enjoying some perverse pleasure from fine detail instead of enjoying the overall image, composition etc.

Some people enjoy the technical reproduction, not the artistic value of the photo. Unless you are one of them, you have to have really big difference to see a slight improvement. I've done 36 MP window ice images pixel shifted 16 x20 and 24 MP K-3 images and put them up on the wall. You won't be able to tell which is which.

The people who might notice a difference would be people doing wall murals. I've seen some wall murals where you walk up and the image softness at the size printed is less than Ideal. My guess is you could do one with a pixels shifted image that looked much better.

**Ron Boggs** · 03-20-2018, 09:34 AM - **1 Like**

While doing some picky slide duplicating, I played a bit with pixel shift. Yes, the increased sharpness is subtle but the "different" color rendition than non-shifted images was quite noticeable--especially with tricky colors like shades of purple on wildflowers. I have not done enough experimenting to make cold-hard conclusions for you, but pixel shift is definitely not JUST for sharpness on humongous prints. It definitely can render color differently though I'm not sure if it's more accurate or more vibrant or more saturated? Again, I'm still learning it's nuances and will know lots more once wildflowers start blooming around here. Subtle shades are very, very hard to duplicate on digital--either in-camera or in post and wildflowers will let me know more definite opinions about pixel shift. But I certainly wouldn't rule it out for your prints simply because the sharpness difference is extremely subtle.

To play with this color concept yourself, all you need is examples of colors, strips of shiney ribbon are a good challenge...three varying shades of red. Same with violet, and with yellow (digital's bugaboo--yellow shades). Even shooting RAW, you'll find it very difficult to make 3 side-by-side shades perfectly duplicate the samples. Then on top of the difficulty of trying to get colors to match, complicate it with pixel shift tests too. Of course the quality and color of lighting is a big factor, as is white balance for JPEG's and for the white balanced camera back view of RAW images.

I'm hopeful that pixel shift makes this process of color accuracy easier for all of us! I'm hopeful you'll like it for your print process.

P.S. Color accuracy may not be the end goal. Note that back in the transparency film days, Ektachrome was considered more accurate than Fuji, but by the end of the film era, outdoor photography of natural subjects became Fuji's strongest market share (Velvia and Provia). The hyper-rendition of certain colors is exactly what we like when looking at printed images and that also factors into the pixel shift colors...Do we want accuracy or vibrance? Do we want saturation or absolute accuracy?

Fenwoodian · 03-20-2018, 09:34 AM - **1 Like**

.
I agree with Ron Boggs - from a sheer sharpness standpoint, it's hard to see much improvement between large prints that were from pixel shift files. This is especially true if you are using premium lenses. I find that the pixel shift improvement in sharpness is less when using the best lenses that I have.

However, to me, an even greater reason to use pixel shift is the improvement in the colors that I see - especially on large homogenous areas like the sky or surface of water. It's this improvement in color that is even more noticable when comparing side by side prints - then is sharpness.

**Ron Boggs** · 03-20-2018, 09:52 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

.
I agree with Ron Boggs - from a sheer sharpness standpoint, it's hard to see much improvement between large prints that were from pixel shift files. This is especially true if you are using premium lenses. I find that the pixel shift improvement in sharpness is less when using the best lenses that I have.

However, to me, an even greater reason to use pixel shift is the improvement in the colors that I see - especially on large homogenous areas like the sky or surface of water. It's this improvement in color that is even more noticable when comparing side by side prints - then is sharpness.

Very interesting that we are noticing the pixel shift difference in two different parts of an image...me looking at tiny detail color stuff and you looking at those big expanses. That helps convince me to ramp up my learning curve on how pixel shift can enhance my images.

Fenwoodian · 03-20-2018, 10:34 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Ron Boggs

Very interesting that we are noticing the pixel shift difference in two different parts of an image...me looking at tiny detail color stuff and you looking at those big expanses. That helps convince me to ramp up my learning curve on how pixel shift can enhance my images.

Indeed, I too need to make more pixel shift images.

I expect that the new K1ii will prompt more of us to shoot pixel shift images. I would image that not being able to shoot pixel shift in the past hand-held has held many back from making pixel shift images. Now that the K1ii will allow for hand-held pixel shift, I expect that the number of pixel shift images made will explode. Such an increase in pixel shift images will generate new learnings about this technique that in turn will further incentivize photographers to shoot pixel shift!

Snakeisthestuff · 03-20-2018, 11:44 AM - **2 Likes**

PS removes moire has less noise on same ISO value and better colors.
I think these are all noticeable in larger prints.

Btw. you can shoot handheld PS with the K-1 at good light and steady hand, or just support on a wall etc. just like you would shoot pictures with long exposures without SR

.

biz-engineer · 03-20-2018, 12:44 PM - **2 Likes**

Valid use case for pixel shift is cropping of macro shot to get more magnification: K1 + 100 macro + apsc crop + pixel shift of a still subject = better quality of the cropped image.

---------- Post added 20-03-18 at 20:47 ----------

Originally posted by Snakeisthestuff

better colors.

Less color noise at pixel level for sure. Beside, camera color vs real world color is limited by the color space covered by the CFA array, nothing to do with RGB interpolation.

wgosma · 03-20-2018, 02:07 PM - **1 Like**

Thanks, some good input here, particularly regarding the effects PS can have on color rendition- I was only thinking in terms of resolution, image sharpness - so this is good info! I've not done much with PS shooting so some experimentation is in order.

Bill

btnapa · 03-20-2018, 05:41 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by wgosma

Thanks, some good input here, particularly regarding the effects PS can have on color rendition- I was only thinking in terms of resolution, image sharpness - so this is good info! I've not done much with PS shooting so some experimentation is in order.

Bill

Let's not forget about noise reduction. The pixel-shift effect on high ISO images is pretty dramatic from the test samples I have seen.

**Rondec** · 03-21-2018, 02:38 AM - **1 Like**

At the end of the day, your pixel shift image is still just 36 megapixels, the same as a non-PS image. The difference, as others have said, is that that image has less noise, better dynamic range, and better color tonality. If you don't post process at all, you might not notice much of a difference, even with pixel peeping. On the other hand, a pixel shift image can be pushed quite a bit harder in post processing without looking pushed.

03-20-2018, 07:57 AM	#1
wgosma Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: California Photos: Gallery Posts: 128	? re: value of pixel shift and printed output Folks, Can you shed any light on potential improved printed output when using pixel shifted images vs. 'normal' raw image? My 'guess' is that there is no perceptible difference to the eye - in my case I'm printing to max 13 x 19 using LR6 and Epson SureColor P600 printer....so not really very large output. Thanks/Bill

03-20-2018, 08:58 AM	#2
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	Originally posted by wgosma Folks, Can you shed any light on potential improved printed output when using pixel shifted images vs. 'normal' raw image? My 'guess' is that there is no perceptible difference to the eye - in my case I'm printing to max 13 x 19 using LR6 and Epson SureColor P600 printer....so not really very large output. Thanks/Bill Dynamic range improvements aside, it would depend on how close you're standing to the print. For a 13x19 you'd have to be pretty much pixel-peeping it. But since PSR does increase the resolution of details within the image, it would technically allow you to print larger, i.e. even exceeding sizes like 20x30. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

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03-20-2018, 09:18 AM - 1 Like	#3
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Pixel shift is an improvement pixel peeping, it's yet to be established what practical value it has in the printing world. The problem being prints big enough to show a difference are expensive to print just to prove a point. I would go with, it might be better some of the time. It won't be better all of the time. What the percentage breakdown is, is anybody's guess. Even with a 13x19 my guess is if you stand back a few feet and look at the image you won't be able to tell the difference between 100 PPI file and a 300 DPI file. To see fine detail in a print the viewing difference need to be about 8 inches. Few people look that close, and they are enjoying some perverse pleasure from fine detail instead of enjoying the overall image, composition etc. Some people enjoy the technical reproduction, not the artistic value of the photo. Unless you are one of them, you have to have really big difference to see a slight improvement. I've done 36 MP window ice images pixel shifted 16 x20 and 24 MP K-3 images and put them up on the wall. You won't be able to tell which is which. The people who might notice a difference would be people doing wall murals. I've seen some wall murals where you walk up and the image softness at the size printed is less than Ideal. My guess is you could do one with a pixels shifted image that looked much better.

03-20-2018, 09:34 AM - 1 Like	#4
Ron Boggs Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: MT Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,349	While doing some picky slide duplicating, I played a bit with pixel shift. Yes, the increased sharpness is subtle but the "different" color rendition than non-shifted images was quite noticeable--especially with tricky colors like shades of purple on wildflowers. I have not done enough experimenting to make cold-hard conclusions for you, but pixel shift is definitely not JUST for sharpness on humongous prints. It definitely can render color differently though I'm not sure if it's more accurate or more vibrant or more saturated? Again, I'm still learning it's nuances and will know lots more once wildflowers start blooming around here. Subtle shades are very, very hard to duplicate on digital--either in-camera or in post and wildflowers will let me know more definite opinions about pixel shift. But I certainly wouldn't rule it out for your prints simply because the sharpness difference is extremely subtle. To play with this color concept yourself, all you need is examples of colors, strips of shiney ribbon are a good challenge...three varying shades of red. Same with violet, and with yellow (digital's bugaboo--yellow shades). Even shooting RAW, you'll find it very difficult to make 3 side-by-side shades perfectly duplicate the samples. Then on top of the difficulty of trying to get colors to match, complicate it with pixel shift tests too. Of course the quality and color of lighting is a big factor, as is white balance for JPEG's and for the white balanced camera back view of RAW images. I'm hopeful that pixel shift makes this process of color accuracy easier for all of us! I'm hopeful you'll like it for your print process. P.S. Color accuracy may not be the end goal. Note that back in the transparency film days, Ektachrome was considered more accurate than Fuji, but by the end of the film era, outdoor photography of natural subjects became Fuji's strongest market share (Velvia and Provia). The hyper-rendition of certain colors is exactly what we like when looking at printed images and that also factors into the pixel shift colors...Do we want accuracy or vibrance? Do we want saturation or absolute accuracy?

03-20-2018, 09:34 AM - 1 Like	#5
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,874	. I agree with Ron Boggs - from a sheer sharpness standpoint, it's hard to see much improvement between large prints that were from pixel shift files. This is especially true if you are using premium lenses. I find that the pixel shift improvement in sharpness is less when using the best lenses that I have. However, to me, an even greater reason to use pixel shift is the improvement in the colors that I see - especially on large homogenous areas like the sky or surface of water. It's this improvement in color that is even more noticable when comparing side by side prints - then is sharpness.

03-20-2018, 09:52 AM - 1 Like	#6
Ron Boggs Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: MT Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,349	Originally posted by Fenwoodian . I agree with Ron Boggs - from a sheer sharpness standpoint, it's hard to see much improvement between large prints that were from pixel shift files. This is especially true if you are using premium lenses. I find that the pixel shift improvement in sharpness is less when using the best lenses that I have. However, to me, an even greater reason to use pixel shift is the improvement in the colors that I see - especially on large homogenous areas like the sky or surface of water. It's this improvement in color that is even more noticable when comparing side by side prints - then is sharpness. Very interesting that we are noticing the pixel shift difference in two different parts of an image...me looking at tiny detail color stuff and you looking at those big expanses. That helps convince me to ramp up my learning curve on how pixel shift can enhance my images.

03-20-2018, 10:34 AM - 1 Like	#7
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,874	Originally posted by Ron Boggs Very interesting that we are noticing the pixel shift difference in two different parts of an image...me looking at tiny detail color stuff and you looking at those big expanses. That helps convince me to ramp up my learning curve on how pixel shift can enhance my images. Indeed, I too need to make more pixel shift images. I expect that the new K1ii will prompt more of us to shoot pixel shift images. I would image that not being able to shoot pixel shift in the past hand-held has held many back from making pixel shift images. Now that the K1ii will allow for hand-held pixel shift, I expect that the number of pixel shift images made will explode. Such an increase in pixel shift images will generate new learnings about this technique that in turn will further incentivize photographers to shoot pixel shift!

03-20-2018, 11:44 AM - 2 Likes	#8
Snakeisthestuff Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 136	PS removes moire has less noise on same ISO value and better colors. I think these are all noticeable in larger prints. Btw. you can shoot handheld PS with the K-1 at good light and steady hand, or just support on a wall etc. just like you would shoot pictures with long exposures without SR .

03-20-2018, 12:44 PM - 2 Likes	#9
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Valid use case for pixel shift is cropping of macro shot to get more magnification: K1 + 100 macro + apsc crop + pixel shift of a still subject = better quality of the cropped image. ---------- Post added 20-03-18 at 20:47 ---------- Originally posted by Snakeisthestuff better colors. Less color noise at pixel level for sure. Beside, camera color vs real world color is limited by the color space covered by the CFA array, nothing to do with RGB interpolation.

03-20-2018, 02:07 PM - 1 Like	#10
wgosma Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: California Photos: Gallery Posts: 128 Original Poster	Thanks, some good input here, particularly regarding the effects PS can have on color rendition- I was only thinking in terms of resolution, image sharpness - so this is good info! I've not done much with PS shooting so some experimentation is in order. Bill

03-20-2018, 05:41 PM - 2 Likes	#11
btnapa Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,616	Originally posted by wgosma Thanks, some good input here, particularly regarding the effects PS can have on color rendition- I was only thinking in terms of resolution, image sharpness - so this is good info! I've not done much with PS shooting so some experimentation is in order. Bill Let's not forget about noise reduction. The pixel-shift effect on high ISO images is pretty dramatic from the test samples I have seen.

03-21-2018, 02:38 AM - 1 Like	#12
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	At the end of the day, your pixel shift image is still just 36 megapixels, the same as a non-PS image. The difference, as others have said, is that that image has less noise, better dynamic range, and better color tonality. If you don't post process at all, you might not notice much of a difference, even with pixel peeping. On the other hand, a pixel shift image can be pushed quite a bit harder in post processing without looking pushed.