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04-05-2018, 02:42 AM - 1 Like   #1
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Capture One and Pixel Shift, I'm confused...

I found this article
It's says that Pix.Shift is supported in CO. On the other hand on official CO page it says that it doesn't.
I'm confused.

04-05-2018, 10:36 AM - 1 Like   #2
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Capture One does not support pixel shift at all.
I do not know what the article is talking about. However, when you shoot a pixel shifted image, Capture One will still display it and the default camera profiles in Capture One do have more sharpening than non Capture One RAW converters.

I did have a short conversation while attending a Capture One webinar where I asked if they were ever going to support pixel shift. The immediate reply was no there were no plans to support pixel shift. But as more camera body manufacturers include pixel shift (or something along those lines) there is an outside chance that Sony pixel shift just might get some attention. This could happen because Sony and Phase One are working closely together on sensor technologies for the Phase One backs.

Capture One, which is my preferred image processing program, does not support Pentax to the same degree as other brands. They don't support it because Pentax is, small and Pentax has the 645x camera. Capture One only supports itself in the Medium Format digital world, Pentax, Hasselblad and Fuji bodies are not supported. I think Capture One is shooting itself in the foot, but they are just the software arm of Phase One, whos primary product is the Phase One FX, iXG and A series cameras.

I don't think we will ever see Capture One supporting Pentax pixel shift or tethering. But Capture One beats Lightroom with a stick (Lightroom will not open Phase One 100MP images either)
04-05-2018, 11:23 AM   #3
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I thought pixel-shifted DNG files contained four individual DNG files in one file package. Capture One will open the first DNG and ignore the other three.

I think pixel shifted image processing in Capture One will be supported when Phase One implements it natively in their own cameras. Seeing that those cameras are in the 50 - 100 megapixel territory I don't see much demand for pixel shifted images. A resolution of 100 megapixels ought to give enough detail.

Then again, if enough active users ask for pixel shifted processing then there's a chance Phase One will implement it in Capture One.

Personally, I would like to see more advanced masking tools before supporting pixel shift technology. Their past addition of creating masks based on color selection was great the recent addition of refining and feather is a good but more can be done.
04-05-2018, 04:09 PM   #4
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If Phase One implements a pixel shift like technology of some sort it will most likely show up in their Cultural Resource oriented body. The camera is mirrorless and is an ugly black square sitting behind a large lens. The iXG and its accoutrements are found here: Phase One iXG Camera System The purpose of this camera system is to help reserve museum and cultural objects (paintings, books, prints etc.) in digital form. There is a small, but very expensive, industry built around the digitalization of Cultural Heritage.

Pixel shift would be a logical step for such endeavors, and the new Hasselblad H5D-50c MS and H5D-200c MS use 4 shots and 6 shots respectively in their implementation. With a 100MP back it gives you 400MP images and 600MP images where from what I can tell by looking at the limited information is all contained in the body of the camera, not the back itself. With Phase One/Capture One going toe to toe with Hasselblad, there might be a independent pixel shift solution coming to Capture One. Capture One already has the ability to order images with using the FX automatic focus stack function. In addition Sony and Phase One are hand in had in sensor design so if there will be a pixel shift push it will mostly with an eye to Sony - Pentax will be left out again. In my opinion.

04-07-2018, 05:12 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Then again, if enough active users ask for pixel shifted processing then there's a chance Phase One will implement it in Capture One.
Well, I asked Phase One for support just to cast a vote, but I'm highly sceptical that they'll ever implement Pixel Shift.

Given their stance on not supporting the 645D/Z it seems they are not keen on creating competition to their own hardware. I don't really see how denying Capture One support is making a difference, to me it would seem that people make their camera choice first and Phase One just loses out on a number of Capture One sales, but apparently that's their thinking.

I'm also a bit disappointed by PhaseOne's camera profile support for Pentax. There have been a couple of problematic profiles for the K-5 and K-3 in the past. Now all (I believe) corrected, but it took them a while and the idea of crafting an in-house profile for every camera individually does not seem to apply to every brand. I'm surely not a fan of the standard K-1 profile but then Pentax's own standard profile is not great either.

Having said all that, Capture One is by far my favourite RAW editor and I can wholeheartedly recommend it to any Pentax user. I find it to be far superior to Lightroom and one can use the excellent colour editor to create one's own camera profiles.

Last edited by Class A; 04-07-2018 at 05:32 AM.
04-07-2018, 06:03 PM   #6
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Phase One's strategy is confusing sometimes. On the one hand, they want to be a top-tier, top-shelf premium product. They are quick to say how they model their software for professionals and their color processing can make an image become famous. Only serious photographers should step up! No pussy-footing around! But, on the other hand, they want as many users as possible. They support a huge number of cameras that have sensors ranging from 1/2.3" to full frame and have a lot of introductory videos on Youtube that are great for beginners, enthusiasts, and amateurs. Capture One, with some additional features, could easily take on Adobe. Maybe they are too small of a company and can't scale to such a roll out. They could be holding themselves back on purpose.

I think Phase One should almost dump their overpriced MF bodies and focus on the software side of the business. There's more people using Capture One without their MF bodies than there are people using Capture One with their MF bodies.
04-07-2018, 09:02 PM   #7
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Original Poster
I don't want to insult anyone, but have any of you read article I provided above? My confusion is that the author implies that Pixel Shift files are understood in Capture One, although oficaly they are no.
04-07-2018, 11:41 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by i83N Quote
My confusion is that the author implies that Pixel Shift files are understood in Capture One, although oficaly they are no.
You need to contact the author about that.

Capture One does not support Pixel Shift. Period.

We can speculate where the small sharpness difference is coming from in his comparison -- my guess is that different default sharpening levels apply for some reason -- but ultimately only the author knows what happened.

FYI, this article has been discussed at DPRreview already and the author has been informed that something does not quite add up. If I remember correctly, he shrugged his shoulders and said that he was happy with the quality as it is.

04-07-2018, 11:51 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by i83N Quote
I don't want to insult anyone, but have any of you read article I provided above? My confusion is that the author implies that Pixel Shift files are understood in Capture One, although oficaly they are no.
Yes, I read the article when it came out. And I re-read the article and the author is just plain wrong even Capture One says so. On a Pentax pixel shifted image Capture One reads the first copy of the RAW data and Ignores the other three. I have a K-3II and I tested it with a files before and after running PDU on them. Capture One will read a PDU processed file (pixel shift processed into a single image) just fine, but a non-processed (sort of a RAW-pixel shift) image, there is little if any difference between the images except in physical size in terms of processing.

I have had service requests into Capture One for at least since v9 for better support of Pentax metadata. So far, nothing has happened and don't expect much to happen.

As for Phase One giving up on MF cameras, I don't expect that to happen. Phase One, as I mentioned either here or somewhere else, is not solely in the market of selling the FX body and backs. They sell custom cameras for aerial photography including their 4 band cameras, (190MP and they will even sell you a server system, running windows 8.1 and custom software, to store and process the data), cultural heritage (with its own version of Capture One) and their A-Series cameras. I think they make far more money on their cameras than they do on their software. For each single FX camera sold, around 39,000 USD, is 130 copies of Capture One Pro.

They do more than the software some of us swear by.
Watch These:
Phase One Industrial - 4-Band Solution
Videos | DTDCH

Phase One is not just a software company.

Last edited by PDL; 04-07-2018 at 11:54 PM. Reason: clarification
04-08-2018, 12:32 AM   #10
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Rawtherapee developer @heckflosse wrote some time ago here that in order for a post-processing program to support pixel shift, its raw developer needs to support multi-frame raw files. If it does not, there is no way to support pixel shift. Then it is up to the developers of the deficient programs to decide if it is worth their time to write new code to support it.

Whether any existing programs can also support the new Real Resolution mode is also a good question.
04-08-2018, 02:31 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
Rawtherapee developer @heckflosse wrote some time ago here that in order for a post-processing program to support pixel shift, its raw developer needs to support multi-frame raw files.
Yes, but it is of course not just a matter of supporting a new file format.

The standard demosaicing algorithm has to be replaced with combining sensel values into RGB values. Ideally, the latter should include a way to deal with local motion as well. This is not hard to do at all but the code has to be written by someone. Unless such code is going to be able to support Phase One's own hardware someday, it seems unlikely that it is going to be incorporated into C1.
04-08-2018, 03:28 AM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
This is not hard to do at all but the code has to be written by someone.
The code already exists
04-08-2018, 04:30 AM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Seeing that those cameras are in the 50 - 100 megapixel territory I don't see much demand for pixel shifted images.
Pixel shift also helps to avoid false colours. Here are some examples.
04-08-2018, 08:34 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by heckflosse Quote
The code already exists
First of all, thanks for sharing!

Second, what is the meaning of the "nRead" values that differ per camera model and why do they not form monotone sequences? For instance, for the K-3, the "nRead" value for ISO 400 is smaller than both ISO 320 and ISO 500 values. I only had a very quick look at the code and just stumbled across this. I wonder whether it allows any conclusions regarding how the cameras deal with various ISO settings.

Why do all Pentax models have different "ePerIso" values?

Interesting.

Not sure why you have a need for flood filling. When is this needed?

I may figure some of this out by looking at the code a bit longer, but I have to go to bed now and thought why not ask you?


Third, it is of course not exactly the code Phase One would be needing. Not sure Phase One is using C++ but in any event, they'd have to adapt the code to their own data representation. If you are keen for Phase One to adopt the code (you might be completely indifferent, I'm not making assumptions) then I think a few more comments would go a long way to make the code easier to adopt by others.

When I wrote "the code has to be written" I meant the code that Phase One has to add to their C1 code. I didn't realise that your code has such a generous licence associated to it but even if Phase One were to look at it, they couldn't use it as is.
04-08-2018, 09:28 AM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
First of all, thanks for sharing!

Second, what is the meaning of the "nRead" values that differ per camera model and why do they not form monotone sequences? For instance, for the K-3, the "nRead" value for ISO 400 is smaller than both ISO 320 and ISO 500 values. I only had a very quick look at the code and just stumbled across this. I wonder whether it allows any conclusions regarding how the cameras deal with various ISO settings.

Why do all Pentax models have different "ePerIso" values?

Interesting.

Not sure why you have a need for flood filling. When is this needed?

I may figure some of this out by looking at the code a bit longer, but I have to go to bed now and thought why not ask you?


Third, it is of course not exactly the code Phase One would be needing. Not sure Phase One is using C++ but in any event, they'd have to adapt the code to their own data representation. If you are keen for Phase One to adopt the code (you might be completely indifferent, I'm not making assumptions) then I think a few more comments would go a long way to make the code easier to adopt by others.

When I wrote "the code has to be written" I meant the code that Phase One has to add to their C1 code. I didn't realise that your code has such a generous licence associated to it but even if Phase One were to look at it, they couldn't use it as is.
The nRead and ePerIso have been measured by Ilias (a RawTherapee contributor, who knows more about measuring them than I do).

The flood filling is optional. I tested using a lot of PS files during development and there have been cases (for example lakes in the scene, or moving people wearing black clothes) which needed the flood filling.

Of course this code has to be adapted for different data representation or different programming languages. Just take it as meta-code and translate it to something different.

Phase One can use the code under the iicense it is (which they most likely won't do) or ask for a special license...

Edit: The RawTherapee Pixelshift motion detection code is not meant to be perfect (that's impossible), though currently is seems to be the best code available.
I really hope others will pick up the ideas and even improve them.

The point is, that the common sense spreaded in a lot of forums (not here) is, that PixelShift is unusable when there is motion in the scene.

That's simply not true.

Last edited by heckflosse; 04-08-2018 at 10:09 AM.
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