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06-19-2018, 03:15 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
Not at all. I see you have also fallen for the 'piracy=theft' propaganda as well. They are not remotely the same thing. Theft is to deprive another of ownership, copyright infringement is a whole other matter, and a civil matter rather than a criminal one. To equate the two is nonsense.

If I could click a button and get a copy of my friends Ferrari, would that be the same as stealing one from someone else? No, not remotely. Just because the entertainment industry has spent decades ramming ads down our throat trying to convince us that it is the same thing, doesn't make it so.
In what jurisdiction do you live and work?

In the US there IS law to the effect that a copyright infringement can be punished criminally under some circumstances, ie "the "receipt, or expectation of receipt, of anything of value, including the receipt of other copyrighted works" (17 USC 101). That law was enacted in response to a case of "hobby" file sharing where the sharer avoided criminal penalties cuz he wasn't doing the sharing for gain. Now he could be prosecuted. Simply received a copy of say Lr that had been put up at a pirate site is extremely unlikely to get you criminally prosecuted though.

You analogy isn't very app since there ARE statutes (at least in the US) specifically proscribing acts involving copying, pirating, distributing etc software. None apply to digital copies of Ferrari's though... . But if you make digital copies of a pentaxforum member's copyrighted PHOTOS of a Ferrari, and sell those at your local cars and coffee get together, yeah, you could be civilly fined.

06-19-2018, 03:30 PM - 1 Like   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by LaurenOE Quote
So in real world professional workflow - I just touched 5 applications - while I am typing on Pentax forums on a Windows machine that is built by me.
I think you hit the nail on the head, there. For a real-world professional workflow, I've no doubt Adobe offers a premium suite of well-integrated products and services that fully justifies the monthly subscription.

In contrast, I'm an amateur stills photographer, and my entire workflow (the volume of which varies considerably week to week, and month to month) consists of library management, RAW development and TIFF export, editing of full-size TIFF, output to full-or-re-sized JPEGs, and viewing of all formats, with each step colour-managed, of course. For me, digiKam 5, Darktable 2.4.4 and GIMP 2.8.16 (with some plug-ins) does everything I need, and feels pretty well integrated - although most of that is probably down to Linux rather than inter-program communication.

In your situation, or for those amateurs with funds they're happy to commit monthly / continuously and who like Windows or Mac, the Adobe subscription model makes absolute sense. But for guys like me who (a) won't make the most of every piece of software, services and integration capabilities, (b) won't use the software and services comprehensively and consistently every month, and / or (c) got fed-up with Windows / updates / virus protection / performance, the OS and tools I've moved to do a grand job. I'm not saying either setup is better or worse (though in my personal opinion, both could be true in different areas). But they're valid alternatives depending on user requirements, and neither is a poor relation to the other if your needs are fully covered by either one

Last edited by BigMackCam; 06-19-2018 at 04:58 PM.
06-19-2018, 04:08 PM - 1 Like   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I'm one of those people. I was well able to afford the 4 versions of Photoshop that I was using illegally, but I chose the dishonest route because it was cheaper. Why buy what I can steal, when the theft allows me to buy what I cannot steal with no hardship? I eventually woke up and changed my ways, but not before being part of the problem.
As a young teenager in the early-to-mid 80s, I'm ashamed to admit that my computer systems were powered almost-entirely by copied / pirated OS and software (none of which I could have afforded to buy, and all of which was obtained from others who'd copied it). It took me a little while to realise the error and moral impropriety of my ways (and the potential effect on others), but by the age of 16 or 17, I'd figured it out and started operating with respect to the software vendors. I'd never stolen anything before, and I've never pirated or stolen a single thing since, software or otherwise. The worst thing I do now is listen to songs on YouTube rather than buying the MP3 downloads or CDs (although I do still buy some of those for listening in the car ).

Interestingly, one of the commercial Sharp MZ80K games I wrote back in the day was pirated by some people, and that cost me income. Small stuff, in the scheme of things, but it hurt

Last edited by BigMackCam; 06-19-2018 at 05:00 PM.
06-20-2018, 12:45 AM - 1 Like   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
Not at all. I see you have also fallen for the 'piracy=theft' propaganda as well. They are not remotely the same thing. Theft is to deprive another of ownership, copyright infringement is a whole other matter, and a civil matter rather than a criminal one. To equate the two is nonsense.
Actually, where I live, it can end up being a criminal offence that can land you in jail depending on the circumstances. I suspect this is true of all the Berne Convention countries, but I could be wrong.
If nothing else since it is definitely a civil offence it is the wrong thing to do.

QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote


If I could click a button and get a copy of my friends Ferrari, would that be the same as stealing one from someone else?
No, not remotely. Just because the entertainment industry has spent decades ramming ads down our throat trying to convince us that it is the same thing, doesn't make it so.
Your example would likely be both a patent infringement and a theft of intellectual property.
I’m done here. I won’t attempt to discuss intellectual property rights with someone who won’t admit they exist.

06-20-2018, 09:22 AM   #65
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I pretty much only use digiKam (although I most often use it on Windows...).
06-21-2018, 03:44 AM   #66
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With Booth darktable and rawtherapee we have zwo fantastic alternatives, so that is ehrte I will go once my LR 5 ever ends working, but that is not on the horizon as it Works with all Most Recent cameras and lenses.

Surprisingly the speed of development of all other non Adobe software providers is much higher as well.
In some cases even with a single developer. One wonders of Adobe only contracts the least bright staff available on this world.
06-21-2018, 04:05 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Surprisingly the speed of development of all other non Adobe software providers is much higher as well.
In some cases even with a single developer. One wonders of Adobe only contracts the least bright staff available on this world.
In Adobe's defence, everything it releases is expected to work properly right out of the gate. There's very little room for error when your users are paying monthly fees. They expect - and have every right to expect - near-perfection, and I'm sure that has a significant effect on development / testing / release times.

With non-commercial software like Darktable and RawTherapee, developers have the benefit of a huge testing team - namely, the users - and expectations for each release realistic. User accept that it will probably include some bugs, but so long as it's showing incremental improvement, they're generally forgiving - which is entirely appropriate, considering the price
06-21-2018, 03:20 PM   #68
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I don't personally think that Adobe is overpriced for what it is - It is the leading design package on the market. I am referring to the package rather than the individual programs which make up the package. For marketing, or for visual design it's actually a pretty cheap option to get a whole team of people working in a suite which has a consistent workflow. The subscription model (theoretically) evens out the income stream and enables a more sprint oriented development development cycle, thus allowing them to stay relevant at the bleeding edge of what professional designers and marketing outfits are asking for. Also, given that Adobe has achieved saturation in the educational sector, Adobe products are all that most students learn, so it's also typically cheaper for a company to fork out the subscription fee than to retrain staff.

Where it falls short is for people who don't need all that power - I've had the full suite for the last few years as a work related 'perk', having left that job I am not about to renew my subscription as I simply no longer need it and can't justify the expense - I can get by fine with single function programs now because I simply don't need the work flow any more. I still use design products on a daily basis, but i don't spend hours each day in Lightroom, Photoshop, and Premiere. It's kind of like needing an around town car and getting a race car instead, Nice to have, but honestly not all that useful.

Adobe products were never cheap even when they were stand alone products, I've brought a couple and they definitely weren't cheap in the local coin. I personally still use Photoshop 7, which still works fine for raster line work. I use Lightzone for raw conversions, batch processing, and basic photo touch-ups. Most of the other stuff I do is more industrial right now, and Adobe doesn't really do that stuff as part of their subscription package.

06-21-2018, 04:33 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by sqrrl Quote
I don't personally think that Adobe is overpriced for what it is - It is the leading design package on the market. I am referring to the package rather than the individual programs which make up the package. For marketing, or for visual design it's actually a pretty cheap option to get a whole team of people working in a suite which has a consistent workflow.
I totally agree.

QuoteOriginally posted by sqrrl Quote
Where it falls short is for people who don't need all that power
Yes, I absolutely agree.

QuoteOriginally posted by sqrrl Quote
Adobe products were never cheap even when they were stand alone products, I've brought a couple and they definitely weren't cheap in the local coin.
When I bought it in 2015, LR6 was only GBP 99 here in the UK via Amazon. Elements 14 was about half that (I can't recall for certain), although for the amount I used it, I probably should have gone with GIMP from the outset. But still, those prices were justifiable for me, on the basis of my usage and projected upgrade cycle (every few years). My issue with the subscription model is that unless I use all the tools and facilities - and then, use them each month - it ceases to be good value for money for me personally, and in the medium to long term, it works out much more expensive for what I need...
06-21-2018, 04:50 PM - 1 Like   #70
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I had used Adobe for years for all of my paid work. But I refuse to do subscription. On the other side of the coin, there is a lot of software available that can do the job.

The final straw for me was Windows. I have a very smooth and much more efficient Linux system(s).
06-21-2018, 04:54 PM   #71
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I tried LR but never got the hang of it. I use Faststone and PSE 8. If my pp sucks it's because of my limitations not the software.
06-22-2018, 09:39 AM - 1 Like   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
With Booth darktable and rawtherapee we have zwo fantastic alternatives, so that is ehrte I will go once my LR 5 ever ends working, but that is not on the horizon as it Works with all Most Recent cameras and lenses.

Surprisingly the speed of development of all other non Adobe software providers is much higher as well.
In some cases even with a single developer. One wonders of Adobe only contracts the least bright staff available on this world.
I don't know about relative intelligence, but most everyone else is still trying to catch up with Adobe, hence this thread.

And while I like and use RT, it's basically an alternative to ACR, which is fine. It does an excellent job at that. In other words, most of these are niche products. They can concentrate on say demosaicing since they don't have to make a bunch of people happy who complain they wanna publish to FB or have the latest lens profiles, plugins, publish services, synching to the cloud, mobile versions, etc.

And as for speed of development, might wanna talk to all the people complaining about the absence of the promised DAM components to Photo Mechanic, Luminar, and Affinity Photo. All at one time or another issued kinda sorta claims have having said capability in the works, with zippo to show.

Finally, as sqrrl noted, Adobe's products in this area are the industry standard. And even the prosumer standard. If you go to classes at your local schools, or camera shops, or camera clubs or even just to YouTube it's all about "well, here's how you do that in Ps...." I think it breeds a kind of resentment, and even though most other products mimic Lr and Ps some, and even though the underlying priniciples are kinda the same (a layer is a layer and ditto for mask), it still can be more difficult to cobble together the tools and workflows one needs, even if they are but a tiny fraction of what Lr/Ps does. But it can be done, even WITH free use of Adobe products: one can use Bridge, or even Lr without Develop and Maps and get all those organizational goodies, while using RT in lieu of ACR and GIMP in lieu of Ps.

BTW, if one does night sky stuff this is a good comparison of the programs with example shots (apologies if already posted): I Tested 10+ Photoshop Alternatives to See How They Stack Up
06-28-2018, 06:09 AM   #73
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While I own legal copy of LR5, i still made my way to Darktable...It's rather painful with import, but overall, I am more than happy with transition.
06-29-2018, 03:59 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Oakland Rob Quote
BTW, if one does night sky stuff this is a good comparison of the programs with example shots (apologies if already posted): I Tested 10+ Photoshop Alternatives to See How They Stack Up
Very useful article, thanks for the link Rob.
06-30-2018, 05:53 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by bhbrake Quote
Very useful article, thanks for the link Rob.
Agreed. But one thing I didn't see in that article which I'm still looking for is face recognition without my pictures going out to "the cloud." The "cloud" is really just some big company's servers, where they can do who knows what with my data, and based on Facebook's misuse of supposedly-private data, I don't trust anyone to keep my data protected. I liked face recognition being added to LR 6, but it is so slow and buggy that I got really frustrated with Adobe, even before they went to the rental model that I also refuse to join.

So in summary, are there any interesting options for local face recognition in a DAM?
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