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09-19-2018, 07:35 PM - 1 Like   #1
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Capture One - the K1 and the White Dots

I've been shooting astro landscapes with the Milky Way this year with the K1. My only grumble are the white spots (noise) in the foreground. I knew about the white spot problem as it has been pretty well documented in the following threads. I bought anyway, eyes wide open - and I'm not complaining. Also, I have been following @MJKoski on the issue here on PF too. Just in case this is new to you, here are the primary links that discuses the "problem"...So, if I'm not complaining - why this post (this is not intended to rehash the problem). Well, I shot about 150 images back in May that have the noise (also about 100 images in March), that have been sitting now needing some work. I've been thinking for most of the year, what I was going to do, how to approach all of this?

Most recently, up in Oak Creek Canyon, I shot with LENR active,that also took care of the problem - at the expense of doubling the exposure time (with the dark frame subtraction). This is ok, certainly works, but obviously not ideal. Also, if I didn't have the presence of mind to shoot with LENR active, I don't get the benefit. However, I would like to recover the images I had shot in the past without the benefit of LENR.

Earlier in the year, I was reading more about all of this - specifically how to handle the white dot issue, @Paul2660 on his own website, made reference to finding that Camera One was able to do a good job in dealing with the white dots.
QuoteQuote:
So this says you have to work up the images in a raw converter that will removed the dots to a good degree and so far the only software I have found that will do this is Capture One, by Phase One. You are eliminated from any Adobe product like ACR or Lightroom as both just seem to magnify the dots. Also any image work, where you might add clarity to help brighten the stars will also brighten the white dots.
So, this afternoon I decided to start with the Camera One trial and just see what the results would actually be in my particular case. Watched their 3 minute overview video and 4 minute moving from LR video. Loaded up the first image for processing and damm - it works! All the white, red, some purple along with some bright green dots - all gone. All cleaned up - the magic dust cloth. I didn't do anything special - just some lite exposure adjustments to brighten the shadow areas (applied to the entire image), to be able to see what was going on.

Now, as to any penalty Camera One is imposing for this (magic), I have not come across any (yet). There are some color differences in terms of the raw processing. LR (5.7) seems to be a bit brighter - a bit punchier, especially with the greens. Obviously the learning curve, and complexity issues, plus the purchase price.

I've only spent a few minutes playing with Camera One, but so far - I'm really impressed in terms of its cleaning up the noise. Now, to be fair about this, I'm out in the desert shooting at midnight, with no moon, just starlight and any reflected light that happens to come my way. It's certainly a situation where noise is expected, and the overall image quality (where it's so dark it's pretty difficult to see your hand in front of your face), even considering the noise is generally excellent out of the K1. In actuality, I have no business expecting image quality this good under these conditions - but it's there, so I'll gladly take it.

So far, this does seem to solve the dilemma at hand here. From what I can see from this there are 2 approaches to take.
  • Go whole hog and learn Camera One, converting over to it completely, or
  • Bring the raws into Camera One letting it clean them up automagically, then export them back out in order to continue with LR.
The first approach would be a long learning curve - but, from what I have been reading, C1 is a very capable software program. The second approach would be pretty a pretty expensive noise reduction utility.

I've attached 3 images. A full image out of LR, with the last 2 being enlarged center sections (the dark area) showing the noise in LR and the absence of noise in C1.



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09-19-2018, 09:43 PM   #2
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If LENR works why not just shoot a few dark frames 1 at the start, 1 midway through, and one at the end to ensure you have some option to subtract appropriately. You don't have to double every exposure to benefit from dark frame subtraction. My guess is I'm missing some nuance as I don't follow this topic all the time.
09-20-2018, 12:48 AM   #3
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I don't see the white spots like that but then I tend to use Dark Frame Substitution (either in camera or manually take one before & after) - so I guess DFS must eliminate it.
09-20-2018, 02:12 AM   #4
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I had never noticed the white spots until recently with the image below taken handheld iso3200 3s. I noticed the hot pixels when I zoomed into the image in Capture 1. Only a few but noticeable, subsequent shots have the dots at the same pixel. The first image is without adjustments, I then set the noise reduction single pixel slider to 1 and the spots are gone as shown in the second image. The third image is a larger crop without adjustment. It would be interesting to know if this image would show more spots in a different editor as I have only used C1. I can post a link if anyone wants to try.The echidna came into the carport where a few of us were sitting and then tried to hide in the wheel of my ute when it saw us.

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09-20-2018, 07:07 AM - 1 Like   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
I've been shooting astro landscapes with the Milky Way this year with the K1. My only grumble are the white spots (noise) in the foreground. I knew about the white spot problem as it has been pretty well documented in the following threads. I bought anyway, eyes wide open - and I'm not complaining. Also, I have been following @MJKoski on the issue here on PF too. Just in case this is new to you, here are the primary links that discuses the "problem"...So, if I'm not complaining - why this post (this is not intended to rehash the problem). Well, I shot about 150 images back in May that have the noise (also about 100 images in March), that have been sitting now needing some work. I've been thinking for most of the year, what I was going to do, how to approach all of this?

Most recently, up in Oak Creek Canyon, I shot with LENR active,that also took care of the problem - at the expense of doubling the exposure time (with the dark frame subtraction). This is ok, certainly works, but obviously not ideal. Also, if I didn't have the presence of mind to shoot with LENR active, I don't get the benefit. However, I would like to recover the images I had shot in the past without the benefit of LENR.

Earlier in the year, I was reading more about all of this - specifically how to handle the white dot issue, @Paul2660 on his own website, made reference to finding that Camera One was able to do a good job in dealing with the white dots.
So, this afternoon I decided to start with the Camera One trial and just see what the results would actually be in my particular case. Watched their 3 minute overview video and 4 minute moving from LR video. Loaded up the first image for processing and damm - it works! All the white, red, some purple along with some bright green dots - all gone. All cleaned up - the magic dust cloth. I didn't do anything special - just some lite exposure adjustments to brighten the shadow areas (applied to the entire image), to be able to see what was going on.

Now, as to any penalty Camera One is imposing for this (magic), I have not come across any (yet). There are some color differences in terms of the raw processing. LR (5.7) seems to be a bit brighter - a bit punchier, especially with the greens. Obviously the learning curve, and complexity issues, plus the purchase price.

I've only spent a few minutes playing with Camera One, but so far - I'm really impressed in terms of its cleaning up the noise. Now, to be fair about this, I'm out in the desert shooting at midnight, with no moon, just starlight and any reflected light that happens to come my way. It's certainly a situation where noise is expected, and the overall image quality (where it's so dark it's pretty difficult to see your hand in front of your face), even considering the noise is generally excellent out of the K1. In actuality, I have no business expecting image quality this good under these conditions - but it's there, so I'll gladly take it.

So far, this does seem to solve the dilemma at hand here. From what I can see from this there are 2 approaches to take.
  • Go whole hog and learn Camera One, converting over to it completely, or
  • Bring the raws into Camera One letting it clean them up automagically, then export them back out in order to continue with LR.
The first approach would be a long learning curve - but, from what I have been reading, C1 is a very capable software program. The second approach would be pretty a pretty expensive noise reduction utility.

I've attached 3 images. A full image out of LR, with the last 2 being enlarged center sections (the dark area) showing the noise in LR and the absence of noise in C1.

white dots are still the problem in K-1 mkII too. I made quick test yesterday in the local camera store - ISO 800, exposure 2 min., dark frame. The noise is there, it almost dissapears if LENR is applied.

---------- Post added 09-20-18 at 05:07 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by macronaut Quote
I had never noticed the white spots until recently with the image below taken handheld iso3200 3s. I noticed the hot pixels when I zoomed into the image in Capture 1. Only a few but noticeable, subsequent shots have the dots at the same pixel. The first image is without adjustments, I then set the noise reduction single pixel slider to 1 and the spots are gone as shown in the second image. The third image is a larger crop without adjustment. It would be interesting to know if this image would show more spots in a different editor as I have only used C1. I can post a link if anyone wants to try.The echidna came into the carport where a few of us were sitting and then tried to hide in the wheel of my ute when it saw us.
3 seconds is too few. Try longer exposure, lets say 30-60 s (dark frame). Do not forget to cover viev finder with dark material to avoid incoming light. Disable Long Exposure Noise Reduction and High ISO noise reduction functions in menu
10-22-2018, 05:05 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
The first approach would be a long learning curve - but, from what I have been reading, C1 is a very capable software program.
I have switched from LR to C1 a while ago and am not looking back.

The "Single Pixel" noise reduction feature you mentioned is just one of many reasons why C1 is the better choice for many. C1 has a very customisable user interface (including user-defined keyboard shortcuts) and the colour editing is much more advanced.

I didn't find the learning curve to be steep at all. IIRC, adapting to new keyboard shortcuts was the biggest hurdle and in some cases I just remapped the C1 keyboard shortcuts so that they matched the LR choices.
10-22-2018, 09:26 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I have switched from LR to C1 a while ago and am not looking back.

The "Single Pixel" noise reduction feature you mentioned is just one of many reasons why C1 is the better choice for many. C1 has a very customisable user interface (including user-defined keyboard shortcuts) and the colour editing is much more advanced.

I didn't find the learning curve to be steep at all. IIRC, adapting to new keyboard shortcuts was the biggest hurdle and in some cases I just remapped the C1 keyboard shortcuts so that they matched the LR choices.
Thanks for the suggestions. Still trying to figure out just what to do. I see RawTharapee has a capability to remove the white dots also. I've been playing around with one set of images. The way I shot the scene at 30mm it takes about 17 to stitch everything together.

Also, I'm in the midst of changing some other things around, so I'm trying to get the workflow tools down - and stay within the budget my wife has imposed.

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