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09-24-2018, 12:45 PM   #16
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DxO Photolab is the best imho.

09-24-2018, 01:06 PM   #17
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My problem with not using Adobe PS and/or LR (I do also think its subscription is good value) is for long term continuity. I have old RAW files processed in old versions of ACR, when I bring them into the current version I can seamlessly pick up the processing by either using the old process model or switching to the latest one. As each version improves in its abilities this gives me continuing support that I believe will continue as long as I pay for a monthly subscription - only equal to the value of three cups of coffee per month. I don't have to worry about post processing support and as Pentax also supports native DNG the whole process just rolls on nicely. It is this not having to worry about my post processing software that means Starbucks goes without :-)
09-24-2018, 01:18 PM - 1 Like   #18
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I stand by Darktable (windows) - I use it for all my raw processing, including noise reduction.

Another option is, if you still can lay your hands on it, Nik Collection (I use the old free version).
Dfine2 is my go by for extreme noise reduction necessities when Darktable is not enough.

Best regards,
09-24-2018, 01:20 PM   #19
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RawTherapee is pretty good, and it's free. Can't beat the value. Their color processing is very good, imo better than LR, but I personally just can't get used to the interface and the workflow, so I'm going to be sticking with LR for a while.

09-24-2018, 01:49 PM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
My problem with not using Adobe PS and/or LR (I do also think its subscription is good value) is for long term continuity. I have old RAW files processed in old versions of ACR, when I bring them into the current version I can seamlessly pick up the processing by either using the old process model or switching to the latest one. As each version improves in its abilities this gives me continuing support that I believe will continue as long as I pay for a monthly subscription - only equal to the value of three cups of coffee per month. I don't have to worry about post processing support and as Pentax also supports native DNG the whole process just rolls on nicely. It is this not having to worry about my post processing software that means Starbucks goes without :-)
This is a very good point, and one I struggled with before finally making the jump to Darktable (as part of an overall move to Linux Mint 18.3).

However...

For some years, my Lightroom workflow has involved developing my raw files, exporting to full size TIFF (admittedly, 8 bit rather than 16 bit), and then exporting to resized JPEG as the need arises. So I have full size TIFF files with all of my processing baked in. Whilst there's a small chance I may want to revisit my edits, it's only small, and only on a few files (it's highly unlikely I'd want to re-edit every single raw photo I've taken). Moving to Darktable, I lost the ability to go back to those original raw edits, but I've yet to find that particularly limiting since switching some months ago. After all, I can still work on the TIFF files (albeit with my raw edits baked in), and I can still export to a variety of different JPEG sizes as necessary.

For me personally, I liken the desire to stay with Lightroom for convenience and continuity alone to holding onto a big helium-filled balloon. The longer you hold on, the higher it gets - and the worse the impact of letting go. Whatever point I decided to leave Lightroom, I knew I'd have to accept some frustrations and difficulties, including the loss of access to my original raw file edits on fully-developed photos. I finally let go of the balloon, and yes - there have been some frustrations and difficulties - but honestly, not that many, and I'm out the other side now (mostly ).

My Pentax DNG files load straight into Darktable without any problems. I have some problems with other manufacturer-specific raw formats, but for those I can either convert to DNG during import using digiKam (which I use for library management), or where that doesn't work, I can run the files through AdobeDNGConverter (so I still have to thank Adobe for something ).

Last edited by BigMackCam; 09-24-2018 at 02:12 PM.
09-24-2018, 02:11 PM - 1 Like   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
This is a very good point, and one I struggled with before finally making the jump to Darktable (as part of an overall move to Linux Mint 18.3).

However...

For some years, my Lightroom workflow has involved developing my raw files, exporting to full size TIFF (admittedly, 8 bit rather than 16 bit), and then exporting to resized JPEG as the need arises. So I have full size TIFF files with all of my processing baked in. Whilst there's a small chance I may want to revisit my edits, it's only small, and only on a few files (it's highly unlikely I'd want to re-edit every single raw photo I've taken). Moving to Darktable, I lost the ability to go back to those original raw edits, but I've yet to find that particularly limiting since switching some months ago. After all, I can still work on the TIFF files (albeit with my raw edits baked in), and I can still export to a variety of different JPEG sizes as necessary.

For me personally, I liken the desire to stay with Lightroom for convenience and continuity alone to holding onto a big helium-filled balloon. The longer you hold on, the higher it gets - and the worse the impact of letting go. Whatever point I decided to leave Lightroom, I knew I'd have to accept some frustrations and difficulties, including the loss of access to my original raw file edits on fully-developed photos. I finally let go of the balloon, and yes - there have been some frustrations and difficulties - but honestly, not that many, and I'm out the other side now (mostly ).

My Pentax DNG files load straight into Darktable without any problems. I have some problems with other manufacturer-specific raw formats, but for those I can either convert to DNG during import using digiKam (which I use for library management), or where that doesn't work, I can run the files through AdobeDNGConverter (so I still have to thank Adobe for something ).
Mike, I can see your point, and for the sake of competition it's obviously better that there are different options that we can choose from. Personally, Bridge/ACR to PS via 16-bit images in prophoto as Smart Objects, before then processing to whatever output is required. This gives me a flexible and powerful solution. I know there will always be that niggle if I was to ever bake in any processing and I can't return to the original 'negative' - past mindset I suspect. So I guess I'll hang onto the balloon and willingly go without my caffeine fix ...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 09-24-2018 at 02:15 PM. Reason: Refreshed quoted post to latest version
09-24-2018, 02:18 PM   #22
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Hi Barry; your workflow sounds very much like mine. I donít use the LR piece of the subscription but am very happy with what PS and ACR give me. Combined noise reduction and sharpening in ACR produces very good results.
09-24-2018, 02:18 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
Mike, I can see your point, and for the sake of competition it's obviously better that there are different options that we can choose from. Personally, Bridge/ACR to PS via 16-bit images in prophoto as Smart Objects, before then processing to whatever output is required. This gives me a flexible and powerful solution. I know there will always be that niggle if I was to ever bake in any processing and I can't return to the original 'negative' - past mindset I suspect. So I guess I'll hang onto the balloon and willingly go without my caffeine fix ...
Right, and I would never criticise you or anyone else for that. It's a very personal decision. I'm happy I made the switch, but I absolutely understand there's a variety of reasons for not doing so. In some cases, those reasons are - I think - based on fear rather than practicality, and I guess that's what I was trying to get at. But yours is clearly based on practicality

09-24-2018, 02:21 PM   #24
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Pretty similar to mine - LR base processing, into PS for refinement, save in 16bit tiffs. I think I need to clear out some of my older archive, I highly doubt I'd be returning to those files at any time, and they take about 20% of my NAS storage lol
09-24-2018, 02:34 PM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
I tried the amazon cloud storage once, and found uploading my entire library way too long (around 700gb of raws, processed files etc). So I settled with a small NAS storage that holds everything for now.
Good point. The fastest Internet connection I can get in my neighbourhood is 10mbps download, 1mbps upload. That's bits per second, so 120 Kilobytes of data per second and it has to be shared with every connected device in the house. If by some miracle the upload goes smoothly and the server on the other end doesn't request the re-transmission of any of it, your library will take almost 6 million seconds to upload, which is almost 70 days of non-stop downloading. When I'm travelling, I can't get close to those speeds with public wifi or a 4G cellular network, so the whole cloud thing becomes a ridiculous waste of time and electricity.
QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
The beauty of NAS is that it's also accessible remotely via web interface
If the person with the photo library is the only person editing those photos, there is an even simpler solution, a portable hard drive. It drives me crazy that there is such a fixation on doing personal computing in the cloud, it's not much of an advance over using a 300 baud Decwriter to connect to the corporate mainframe.

Last edited by RGlasel; 09-24-2018 at 03:04 PM. Reason: too many zeros in my original calculations
09-24-2018, 02:43 PM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
It drives me crazy that there is such a fixation on doing personal computing in the cloud, it's not much of an advance over using a 300 baud Decwriter to connect to the corporate mainframe.
I can understand the appeal of cloud storage... for backups, at least... But I have real difficulty with the idea of transferring responsibility to a third party for the safe keeping of my digital assets. I'd always want at least one local copy... and, in fact, I backup my main Linux PC in full to one external hard drive every few days (using Timeshift), and backup all of my data to another drive (also with Timeshift) almost as often, sometimes more so if I've created or imported a lot of files.

My internet connectivity is reasonably (if not lighting) quick, with 36Mbps+ read, and 8 - 10Mbps write speeds. But I still wouldn't want to use the cloud as my primary data file system. For backups, though - and for those who don't have the same hang-ups as me - I can see the attraction...
09-24-2018, 02:52 PM   #27
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I've upgraded to DxO Photolab (from a much older version) sometime after the news about bankruptcy. It currently supports all the gear I have and with the rate Pentax releases new stuff I think I'll be fine with the current version for at least few years even if DxO goes out of business meanwhile (or Pentax for that matter).
09-24-2018, 03:00 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
For backups, though - and for those who don't have the same hang-ups as me - I can see the attraction...
Chances are good that when you lose your locally stored data, you also lose Internet connectivity (because your computing device won't run). If someone else needs access to your data while you are getting a new computer (or replacing a hard drive, same traumatic experience), cloud storage seems like a easy solution, but then you should be saving your data to a shared network location so it can be worked on concurrently, not just backing up to it. The problem isn't your hangups, it's other people being too eager to let strangers do things for them that they are perfectly capable of doing for themselves.

Last edited by RGlasel; 09-24-2018 at 03:06 PM.
09-24-2018, 03:33 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by sealonsf Quote
T
On another note, I bought ON1 when it was on sale and am just not happy with it. I admit, I haven't given it a lot of time but I just don't think it will work for what I want.
I use LR most of the time, but ON1 gives me more scope for creative editing on those special pics.
09-24-2018, 04:14 PM - 2 Likes   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I can understand the appeal of cloud storage... for backups, at least... But I have real difficulty with the idea of transferring responsibility to a third party for the safe keeping of my digital assets. I'd always want at least one local copy... and, in fact, I backup my main Linux PC in full to one external hard drive every few days (using Timeshift), and backup all of my data to another drive (also with Timeshift) almost as often, sometimes more so if I've created or imported a lot of files.

My internet connectivity is reasonably (if not lighting) quick, with 36Mbps+ read, and 8 - 10Mbps write speeds. But I still wouldn't want to use the cloud as my primary data file system. For backups, though - and for those who don't have the same hang-ups as me - I can see the attraction...
Exactly!

Moreover, I'd be extremely wary of picking the lowest-cost cloud storage provider. I'm not saying you always get what you pay for but if you don't pay enough you will get nothing.

Cloud storage has real and unavoidable costs in the form of hard disks, servers, networking equipment, air conditioners, and lots and lots of electricity. I'm sure there are plenty of start-ups out their offering online storage for well below cost, burning through their investor's money, and hoping they get big enough to be bought before they go bankrupt.

Personally, the thought of putting my precious files into something named after nebulous water vapour (aka clouds) gives me pause. For my files, two Apple Time Capsules (upgraded over the years to 6TB drives) are my front-line for hourly incremental backups. Periodic back-ups to an external drive and off-site storage of the removable disk give me decent long-tern security.
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