Global contrast vs micro-contrast

rechmbrs · 01-28-2019, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

I agree. Yesterday I've played with some raw images to try things out. Different parts of an image relate to each other, including contrasts. It's hard to transform a badly exposed image into a good one with post processing. Correct exposure of different par of the image is essential to be able to take advantage of the post processing. Applied light can reveal so much and give the extra headroom for the post processing. Then the post processing is a set of trade-offs.

---------- Post added 28-01-19 at 19:49 ----------

I've tried that again yesterday and compared it to the unsharp method. Both methods do not give the same results but similar, the clarity / noise approach is more straightforward and allows to play with sharpness separately.

Guys,
I've played with something for a while. It is a Spatial Frequency by octave Photoshop script. You input you file and it outputs a file with the input, DC, and eight octaves as layers. You can then review to identify within each octave your weak or strong portions you wish to fix. I'm hoping that this extra separation makes the anomalies apparent for you.

Because these are normal looking layers, you can burn, dodge, whatever you wish to make stronger or weaker. Once you have id'd the areas and applied the cure, you can then run a companion script to put is all back together into a single layer. This Photoshop script is located at: __SST-Save.zip. Unzip it, and copy to the script folder in Photoshop. This should run on Win or Mac Photoshop CC. The file used as input should not be your original but a copy and probably should be flattened before calling this routine.

The companion script is broken right now but try to see if Spatial Frequency separation allows you to identify the anomalous areas.

Have a try please and I'll fix what I screwed up in the companion.

Cheers,
RONC

Last edited by rechmbrs; 01-28-2019 at 04:35 PM. Reason: Forgot mention that the script is Photoshop CC

**Craigbob** · 01-28-2019, 05:50 PM

Have you taken a look at DxO Photolab 2? It has separate sliders for both contrast and microcontrast.

biz-engineer · 01-28-2019, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Craigbob

Have you taken a look at DxO Photolab 2? It has separate sliders for both contrast and microcontrast.

I've been looking at image processing software options. I like DXO but the company went bust, so I decided not to go that route. I found Lr rather expensive. And wasn't convinced by other software alternatives for raw conversion and supporting Pentax latest camera models. The only software that fully support Pentax K1 / K1 II and that doesn't cost much and that is faster to process than PDCU was Silkypix, but Silkypix has more limited functionality that others.

**ThorSanchez** · 01-29-2019, 09:01 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

I've been looking at image processing software options. I like DXO but the company went bust, so I decided not to go that route. I found Lr rather expensive. And wasn't convinced by other software alternatives for raw conversion and supporting Pentax latest camera models. The only software that fully support Pentax K1 / K1 II and that doesn't cost much and that is faster to process than PDCU was Silkypix, but Silkypix has more limited functionality that others.

Does RawTherapee or Darktable not sufficiently support the K-1/K-1ii? I rented a K-1 a month ago and did all my processing, including pixel shift, with RT and it seemed to work well. Although it may not support hand-held pixel shift in the K-1ii.

biz-engineer · 01-29-2019, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by ThorSanchez

Does RawTherapee or Darktable not sufficiently support the K-1/K-1ii?

Color cast no at all aligned with native Pentax rendering. RAWtherapee can recognize K1 in the exif but the colors after demosaicing don't match the Pentax color baseline.

**Craigbob** · 01-29-2019, 10:24 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

I've been looking at image processing software options. I like DXO but the company went bust, so I decided not to go that route. I found Lr rather expensive. And wasn't convinced by other software alternatives for raw conversion and supporting Pentax latest camera models. The only software that fully support Pentax K1 / K1 II and that doesn't cost much and that is faster to process than PDCU was Silkypix, but Silkypix has more limited functionality that others.

DxO is still in business and just released an update to Photolab2. I think it's worth the time and money. I get better post processed images from DxO than I do from LR, and I've been using LR since before it was LR (Raw Photoshooter Pro).

biz-engineer · 01-29-2019, 10:29 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Craigbob

DxO is still in business and just released an update to Photolab2. I think it's worth the time and money. I get better post processed images from DxO than I do from LR, and I've been using LR since before it was LR (Raw Photoshooter Pro).

I had compared raw conversions from trial version, and DXO was one of the best.

house · 01-29-2019, 12:38 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Color cast no at all aligned with native Pentax rendering. RAWtherapee can recognize K1 in the exif but the colors after demosaicing don't match the Pentax color baseline.

Might be different with the K-1 but if you shoot dng and choose "Camera Standard" under "color > color management > input profile "my K-3 gets pretty close if you select "auto match tone curve" in the exposure module and tweak the exposure compensation.

normhead · 01-29-2019, 12:48 PM

In aperture it's Definition, and you can brush it where you want it.

**BigMackCam** · 01-29-2019, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by ThorSanchez

Does RawTherapee or Darktable not sufficiently support the K-1/K-1ii? I rented a K-1 a month ago and did all my processing, including pixel shift, with RT and it seemed to work well. Although it may not support hand-held pixel shift in the K-1ii.

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Color cast no at all aligned with native Pentax rendering. RAWtherapee can recognize K1 in the exif but the colors after demosaicing don't match the Pentax color baseline.

Originally posted by house

Might be different with the K-1 but if you shoot dng and choose "Camera Standard" under "color > color management > input profile "my K-3 gets pretty close if you select "auto match tone curve" in the exposure module and tweak the exposure compensation.

Yes, assuming the dcraw profile for the K-1 / K-1II is correct (and I have no reason to be believe why it shouldn't be), RawTherapee's "Auto match tone curve" function should get very close indeed to how the in-camera JPEG engine would render. I've only just recently started using RawTherapee, not as a replacement for Darktable but rather and addition / alternative, and this is a very impressive feature that works extremely well.

As @house suggested, it works well with K-3 files...

**UncleVanya** · 01-29-2019, 03:20 PM

Love DXO.

**ThorSanchez** · 01-29-2019, 03:40 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Yes, assuming the dcraw profile for the K-1 / K-1II is correct (and I have no reason to be believe why it shouldn't be), RawTherapee's "Auto match tone curve" function should get very close indeed to how the in-camera JPEG engine would render. I've only just recently started using RawTherapee, not as a replacement for Darktable but rather and addition / alternative, and this is a very impressive feature that works extremely well.

As @house suggested, it works well with K-3 files...

I've been using RawTherapee for four or five months now and am a little embarrassed to admit I didn't realize that's what Auto matched tone curves were doing.

**BigMackCam** · 01-29-2019, 03:45 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by ThorSanchez

I've been using RawTherapee for four or five months now and am a little embarrassed to admit I didn't realize that's what Auto matched tone curves were doing.

Don't be embarassed. I have lightbulb moments all the time in every aspect of photography and post-processing... often with something I've been doing for months or even years

So, assuming the dcraw profile for your camera exists and has been accurately produced, auto match tone curve will look at the embedded JPEG image within the raw file and adjust the tone curve to achieve a surprisingly accurate recreation. It's pretty awesome, actually, and something I wish Darktable had...

biz-engineer · 01-30-2019, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

RawTherapee's "Auto match tone curve" function should get very close indeed to how the in-camera JPEG engine would render.

Yes, I understood that feature, comaring it to sames images processed with PDCU showed me that the auto match feature is skewed by a visible amount.

**BigMackCam** · 01-30-2019, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Yes, I understood that feature, comaring it to sames images processed with PDCU showed me that the auto match feature is skewed by a visible amount.

Interesting. That may mean the dcraw profile for the camera isn't well produced, or it could be that the auto match tone curve feature is more approximate than I'd thought...

Out of interest, have you used any raw processor that was able to give you the same colours and tone curve as PDCU?

01-28-2019, 02:43 PM	#16
rechmbrs Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conroe, TX USA Posts: 423	Try something? Originally posted by biz-engineer I agree. Yesterday I've played with some raw images to try things out. Different parts of an image relate to each other, including contrasts. It's hard to transform a badly exposed image into a good one with post processing. Correct exposure of different par of the image is essential to be able to take advantage of the post processing. Applied light can reveal so much and give the extra headroom for the post processing. Then the post processing is a set of trade-offs. ---------- Post added 28-01-19 at 19:49 ---------- I've tried that again yesterday and compared it to the unsharp method. Both methods do not give the same results but similar, the clarity / noise approach is more straightforward and allows to play with sharpness separately. Guys, I've played with something for a while. It is a Spatial Frequency by octave Photoshop script. You input you file and it outputs a file with the input, DC, and eight octaves as layers. You can then review to identify within each octave your weak or strong portions you wish to fix. I'm hoping that this extra separation makes the anomalies apparent for you. Because these are normal looking layers, you can burn, dodge, whatever you wish to make stronger or weaker. Once you have id'd the areas and applied the cure, you can then run a companion script to put is all back together into a single layer. This Photoshop script is located at: __SST-Save.zip. Unzip it, and copy to the script folder in Photoshop. This should run on Win or Mac Photoshop CC. The file used as input should not be your original but a copy and probably should be flattened before calling this routine. The companion script is broken right now but try to see if Spatial Frequency separation allows you to identify the anomalous areas. Have a try please and I'll fix what I screwed up in the companion. Cheers, RONC Last edited by rechmbrs; 01-28-2019 at 04:35 PM. Reason: Forgot mention that the script is Photoshop CC

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01-28-2019, 05:50 PM	#17
Craigbob Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: San Antonio, TX Photos: Albums Posts: 521	Have you taken a look at DxO Photolab 2? It has separate sliders for both contrast and microcontrast.

01-28-2019, 11:47 PM	#18
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Originally posted by Craigbob Have you taken a look at DxO Photolab 2? It has separate sliders for both contrast and microcontrast. I've been looking at image processing software options. I like DXO but the company went bust, so I decided not to go that route. I found Lr rather expensive. And wasn't convinced by other software alternatives for raw conversion and supporting Pentax latest camera models. The only software that fully support Pentax K1 / K1 II and that doesn't cost much and that is faster to process than PDCU was Silkypix, but Silkypix has more limited functionality that others.

01-29-2019, 09:01 AM - 1 Like	#19
ThorSanchez Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,806	Originally posted by biz-engineer I've been looking at image processing software options. I like DXO but the company went bust, so I decided not to go that route. I found Lr rather expensive. And wasn't convinced by other software alternatives for raw conversion and supporting Pentax latest camera models. The only software that fully support Pentax K1 / K1 II and that doesn't cost much and that is faster to process than PDCU was Silkypix, but Silkypix has more limited functionality that others. Does RawTherapee or Darktable not sufficiently support the K-1/K-1ii? I rented a K-1 a month ago and did all my processing, including pixel shift, with RT and it seemed to work well. Although it may not support hand-held pixel shift in the K-1ii.

01-29-2019, 09:41 AM	#20
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Originally posted by ThorSanchez Does RawTherapee or Darktable not sufficiently support the K-1/K-1ii? Color cast no at all aligned with native Pentax rendering. RAWtherapee can recognize K1 in the exif but the colors after demosaicing don't match the Pentax color baseline.

01-29-2019, 10:24 AM - 1 Like	#21
Craigbob Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: San Antonio, TX Photos: Albums Posts: 521	Originally posted by biz-engineer I've been looking at image processing software options. I like DXO but the company went bust, so I decided not to go that route. I found Lr rather expensive. And wasn't convinced by other software alternatives for raw conversion and supporting Pentax latest camera models. The only software that fully support Pentax K1 / K1 II and that doesn't cost much and that is faster to process than PDCU was Silkypix, but Silkypix has more limited functionality that others. DxO is still in business and just released an update to Photolab2. I think it's worth the time and money. I get better post processed images from DxO than I do from LR, and I've been using LR since before it was LR (Raw Photoshooter Pro).

01-29-2019, 10:29 AM - 1 Like	#22
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Originally posted by Craigbob DxO is still in business and just released an update to Photolab2. I think it's worth the time and money. I get better post processed images from DxO than I do from LR, and I've been using LR since before it was LR (Raw Photoshooter Pro). I had compared raw conversions from trial version, and DXO was one of the best.

01-29-2019, 12:38 PM - 2 Likes	#23
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	Originally posted by biz-engineer Color cast no at all aligned with native Pentax rendering. RAWtherapee can recognize K1 in the exif but the colors after demosaicing don't match the Pentax color baseline. Might be different with the K-1 but if you shoot dng and choose "Camera Standard" under "color > color management > input profile "my K-3 gets pretty close if you select "auto match tone curve" in the exposure module and tweak the exposure compensation.

01-29-2019, 12:48 PM	#24
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	In aperture it's Definition, and you can brush it where you want it.

01-29-2019, 01:55 PM	#25
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by ThorSanchez Does RawTherapee or Darktable not sufficiently support the K-1/K-1ii? I rented a K-1 a month ago and did all my processing, including pixel shift, with RT and it seemed to work well. Although it may not support hand-held pixel shift in the K-1ii. Originally posted by biz-engineer Color cast no at all aligned with native Pentax rendering. RAWtherapee can recognize K1 in the exif but the colors after demosaicing don't match the Pentax color baseline. Originally posted by house Might be different with the K-1 but if you shoot dng and choose "Camera Standard" under "color > color management > input profile "my K-3 gets pretty close if you select "auto match tone curve" in the exposure module and tweak the exposure compensation. Yes, assuming the dcraw profile for the K-1 / K-1II is correct (and I have no reason to be believe why it shouldn't be), RawTherapee's "Auto match tone curve" function should get very close indeed to how the in-camera JPEG engine would render. I've only just recently started using RawTherapee, not as a replacement for Darktable but rather and addition / alternative, and this is a very impressive feature that works extremely well. As @house suggested, it works well with K-3 files...

01-29-2019, 03:20 PM	#26
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,404	Love DXO.

01-29-2019, 03:40 PM - 1 Like	#27
ThorSanchez Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,806	Originally posted by BigMackCam Yes, assuming the dcraw profile for the K-1 / K-1II is correct (and I have no reason to be believe why it shouldn't be), RawTherapee's "Auto match tone curve" function should get very close indeed to how the in-camera JPEG engine would render. I've only just recently started using RawTherapee, not as a replacement for Darktable but rather and addition / alternative, and this is a very impressive feature that works extremely well. As @house suggested, it works well with K-3 files... I've been using RawTherapee for four or five months now and am a little embarrassed to admit I didn't realize that's what Auto matched tone curves were doing.

01-29-2019, 03:45 PM - 1 Like	#28
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by ThorSanchez I've been using RawTherapee for four or five months now and am a little embarrassed to admit I didn't realize that's what Auto matched tone curves were doing. Don't be embarassed. I have lightbulb moments all the time in every aspect of photography and post-processing... often with something I've been doing for months or even years So, assuming the dcraw profile for your camera exists and has been accurately produced, auto match tone curve will look at the embedded JPEG image within the raw file and adjust the tone curve to achieve a surprisingly accurate recreation. It's pretty awesome, actually, and something I wish Darktable had...

01-30-2019, 12:28 AM	#29
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Originally posted by BigMackCam RawTherapee's "Auto match tone curve" function should get very close indeed to how the in-camera JPEG engine would render. Yes, I understood that feature, comaring it to sames images processed with PDCU showed me that the auto match feature is skewed by a visible amount.

01-30-2019, 03:01 AM	#30
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by biz-engineer Yes, I understood that feature, comaring it to sames images processed with PDCU showed me that the auto match feature is skewed by a visible amount. Interesting. That may mean the dcraw profile for the camera isn't well produced, or it could be that the auto match tone curve feature is more approximate than I'd thought... Out of interest, have you used any raw processor that was able to give you the same colours and tone curve as PDCU?