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09-20-2019, 03:49 PM   #1
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Smaller .Tiff Files?

Here's how my workflow goes;

1) Open DNG in LR (Create Virtual Copy), do the basic edits, if it's enough then Export As Jpg.

2) If not then I Edit In > PS

3) In PS I make further changes, applying layers, filters and finally sometimes a bordering (like below);



Shortly after this process is where I need help. If I hit 'Save' then the changes are applied back in LR (handy) as a Tiff file, and I can again make any last minute changes or simply Export the file as a Jpg. Cool. Except I'm left with a 29mb DNG file (sometimes a virtual copy) and a 130mb Tiff file of essentially the same image. That's quite a lot of data to keep, but I kinda want to keep them all, the original RAW in case I want to revisit the file again and steer it in another direction, and also the Tiff because it will be different to the edited DNG (filters applied, bordering etc)... it's just... does it need to be so darn big?!

When using LR and 'Edit In' and making further edits in PS, when we click 'Save' is there anyway to tell PS to save it back to LR as something 'lighter' than the typical 100+mb Tiff files I'm left with? It just strikes me as being a bit overkill perhaps?


TIA!

BB

09-20-2019, 04:36 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
does it need to be so darn big?!
The answer is a qualified yes. There is an option for compression, but I don't know about tool support.

The question of archive, editing, and such is sticky. Keeping the DNG or PEF as the original is problematic in that one is beholden to tool support for reproduction of a particular edit. Archiving a particularly virtual copy as export to DNG is another option, but again, is tool-bound (no, Capture One is not going to know how to seamlessly apply the ACR XMP). Archiving to TIFF is a storage headache and also means one has to save off a TIFF for each archive-worthy edit treatment.

I did a huge boo boo several years ago when I decided to archive my Canon RAW files to TIFF. The archives were huge and the TIFFs a pain to work with. That is a shame, since I had some good work there.


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09-20-2019, 04:37 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
When using LR and 'Edit In' and making further edits in PS, when we click 'Save' is there anyway to tell PS to save it back to LR as something 'lighter' than the typical 100+mb Tiff files I'm left with? It just strikes me as being a bit overkill perhaps?
Edit as PSD? FWIW, Photoshop does not save anything back to LR. It saves to the computer's file system. LR has reference to that file and strangely enough, is even capable of working with edits to it in real time in cooperation with PS. I have done that and it is strangely cool.


Steve
09-20-2019, 05:30 PM   #4
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The big advantage of TIFF files is that they employ a form of lossless compression. The K-1 I've got reports in the EXIF data that the compression of the TIFF version is 6%. If you open the file (and there's a TIFF version stored in the raw data) in another program and then save it in an uncompressed format (e.g., if the authors haven't paid the royalties to be able to use the patented LZW compression algorithm), then the resulting file is going to be a good bit bigger.

It may also be that some data is expanded to suit the size of certain variables in the software; if certain data is stored by the camera as unsigned two-byte integers, and the software converts it to signed four-byte real numbers (for example), then the resultant file will be bigger.

Also, there are different standards for different kinds of TIFF files - an important one is the difference between data stored as "strips" and that stored as "tiles". (I'm not sure which either device would use, or what effect that might have on filesize. The point is that there are different kinds with different standards.)

09-20-2019, 05:42 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlh Quote
(e.g., if the authors haven't paid the royalties to be able to use the patented LZW compression algorithm),
LZW patents expired years ago.

QuoteQuote:
LZW is notorious because of late-in-the-game patent-protection actions taken by Unisys beginning in late 1994, perceived as having an adverse affect on the Web due to that medium's widespread use of GIF images, which employ LZW compression. Unisys's US patent expired in June 2003, and its European and Japanese patents expired in June 2004. In 2007, the company's LZW Patent and Software Information Web page stated that the "Unisys Corporation holds and has patents pending on a number of improvements on the inventions claimed in the above-expired patents." As of January 2012, the Unisys Web site has no mention of LZW.
09-20-2019, 05:46 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
LZW patents expired years ago.
There may be derivative patents, though I didn't bother to look 'em up at USPTO.Gov
09-20-2019, 06:39 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlh Quote
There may be derivative patents, though I didn't bother to look 'em up at USPTO.Gov
Everything I can find (Library of Congress, Open Preservation etc) say that LZW as used by TIFF was under patent until 2003/2004. Another source says the TIFF specification is now controlled by Adobe and LZW can be freely used with it. TIFF can also use ZIP compression, and that has never been patented.
09-20-2019, 08:34 PM   #8
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For example, this is what just happened, I finished this 'single' image;



This is a little bit different from the norm in a sense because I used two RAW DNG files to create it because it is aperture stacked (a f2.8 and f4 shot was used, in the processing part I used the f4 shot for the flower and kept the rest of the frame/background using the f2.8 shot);

1) So I had to first import 2x 39mb DNG files into LR. I made basic adjustments to both.
2) then when I had them semi matched for exposure etc I then I took them off to PS to Align the images as layers and do the masking.
3) Once I was satisfied (for now) in PS from the masking I 'Saved' and saw my changes applied automatically back into LR. From here I then actually rendered the image, cropped it properly and did more retouching.
4) Finally satisified with the look I then did one more 'Edit In' PS to generate my bordering and watermark
5) Then I hit 'Save' in PS and saw the bordering applied version in LR and could then do an Export as Jpg.

So right now, sitting on my PC (not talking imaginary data here but actual data on the SSD) is;

- DNG 1 = 39mb
- DNG 2 = 39mb
- Tiff 1 (merge of DMG 1+2) = 517mb (lol!)
- Tiff 2 (proper render, crop with added bordering and wm = 849mb (lmao!)

Total SDD space used up for one image = 1.41gb... (not including the exported Jpg).

Yeah so things are getting silly at camp Bruce....

09-20-2019, 09:08 PM   #9
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More than you ever wanted to know about the format including compression:

TIFF - Wikipedia
09-21-2019, 01:44 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
- DNG 1 = 39mb
- DNG 2 = 39mb
- Tiff 1 (merge of DMG 1+2) = 517mb (lol!)
- Tiff 2 (proper render, crop with added bordering and wm = 849mb (lmao!)
I checked and the tiff (and a dng) file is about 6 times the size of the raw dng (in PS). This is consistent with your numbers. But as an example a 5 TB external hard drive is about $150, and that would hold 5000 images if they are very large (e.g., each 1000 mb).To have a back up you would need two 5 TB HDs but it does not seem so bad IMO.
09-21-2019, 03:12 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by dms Quote
I checked and the tiff (and a dng) file is about 6 times the size of the raw dng (in PS). This is consistent with your numbers. But as an example a 5 TB external hard drive is about $150, and that would hold 5000 images if they are very large (e.g., each 1000 mb).To have a back up you would need two 5 TB HDs but it does not seem so bad IMO.
The issue is I have a very expensive (but compact and portable) SSD that's capped at 2tb. Cost me $480! (reduced from normally $600!). I have to make that my limit for 2yrs (of carrying client material around with me) before either deleting content or upgrading. HDD's at home are not an issue, I have over 8tb's worth, it's the ones that you want to take with you (for theft and fire safety) that hit the wallet.

So yeah I have to resolve this. I'll ask on the LR forums and report back here.
09-21-2019, 05:31 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Everything I can find (Library of Congress, Open Preservation etc) say that LZW as used by TIFF was under patent until 2003/2004. Another source says the TIFF specification is now controlled by Adobe and LZW can be freely used with it. TIFF can also use ZIP compression, and that has never been patented.
the only way to know is to look at USPTO.GOV, look up the original LZW patent, get the number and then search the patent database for that number - derivative patents must disclose the "prior art", so any precursors will be listed (and thus searchable).
09-21-2019, 05:34 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
The issue is I have a very expensive (but compact and portable) SSD that's capped at 2tb. Cost me $480! (reduced from normally $600!). I have to make that my limit for 2yrs (of carrying client material around with me) before either deleting content or upgrading. HDD's at home are not an issue, I have over 8tb's worth, it's the ones that you want to take with you (for theft and fire safety) that hit the wallet.

So yeah I have to resolve this. I'll ask on the LR forums and report back here.
I can't help wondering whether you backup your SSD to a hard drive. I've heard tales about semiconductor memories fading. I'm thinking that if you were to not only backup the data, but offload it as well, then your SSD would be for "current storage" as sort of a staging point. Transfer to a more permanent medium (though for that, probably DVD's are best) as well as to expand file storage capability.
09-21-2019, 01:01 PM   #14
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One thing to consider is if you really need your Tiffs to be full-sized. Maybe you have a particular need for high DPI prints, but for me I like to do my main editing in Raw, then I crop and resize the image for Tiff conversion with the longest dimension being 3840 pixels (the longest dimension of a 4k consumer monitor.) This brings my 24 megapixels down to about 8-10 megapixels, which is usually still plenty for printing and further compositing/editing. It also brings the size down to about twice the DNG, so it's still not ideal for archiving, but it's much more practical than keeping every step of your workflow at full detail.
09-21-2019, 02:15 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlh Quote
I can't help wondering whether you backup your SSD to a hard drive. I've heard tales about semiconductor memories fading. I'm thinking that if you were to not only backup the data, but offload it as well, then your SSD would be for "current storage" as sort of a staging point. Transfer to a more permanent medium (though for that, probably DVD's are best) as well as to expand file storage capability.
Yes of course, and a back up of the back up. If your data isn't in 3 places at any one time then you don't have your data at all! That might seem overly dramatic but it's pretty much what the cloud does as well, your files are not just 'up there' in one place, its duplicated around in case of loss. For me and where I live the cloud isn't really viable, so I have had to make myself the cloud, always leaving my home with a backup and in this case it's the rather expensive (yet extremely portable and light) 2tb SSD. The issue is space, 2tb is still cutting it fine, I have filled mine half full already with this years worth of jobs, I may have to get ruthless at some point or another. Currently I have 'Export As Catalog' my work (I use multiple catalogs per job), but I may have to revisit those catalogs and then start Exporting them again but this time only highlighting the images that really matter (and perhaps forgo the tiff files... :'(
Hopefully within a couple of years I will be able to afford a 4-5tb SSD that is of similar size, weight and dimensions as the one I currently carry.

QuoteOriginally posted by StarTroop Quote
One thing to consider is if you really need your Tiffs to be full-sized. Maybe you have a particular need for high DPI prints, but for me I like to do my main editing in Raw, then I crop and resize the image for Tiff conversion with the longest dimension being 3840 pixels (the longest dimension of a 4k consumer monitor.) This brings my 24 megapixels down to about 8-10 megapixels, which is usually still plenty for printing and further compositing/editing. It also brings the size down to about twice the DNG, so it's still not ideal for archiving, but it's much more practical than keeping every step of your workflow at full detail.
LR Forums got back to me, their suggestion was to make PS work in 16bit Compressed Tiff, and also to remember to always flatten down an image before hitting 'Save', as that can contribute to overly unnecessarily large Tiff files.
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