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10-26-2019, 05:22 AM - 1 Like   #1
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Capture One Pro 20 on pre-sale (deal available)

Anyone buying a Capture One Pro 12 license now will receive a free upgrade to Capture One Pro 20 (the successor to version 12).

If you already own a C1 license, you need to login in before you see the upgrade pricing that applies with respect to the version number you already own.

Using a discount code (10% off) like OCT-AF-HZ15 by "Alex on RAW" further improves the deal one could currently get on a Capture One Pro 20 license (the code is valid till the end of October).

Phase One always gave customers that bought a C1 license briefly before a new version came out a free upgrade to the new version (IIRC, it was a 30-day window). I like that they are now proactively telling you that a new C1 version is imminent. On the one hand it is no real surprise as it is "that" time of the year, but on the other hand you don't have buy a license you don't really want now and then live in fear that the new version won't come out in time for you to claim the free upgrade.

No new features have been announced but if you know that you'll upgrade to version 20 anyhow, now is probably a good time. I make no guarantees, though, that buying version 20 outright won't be a better deal. Seems very, very unlikely, though.


Last edited by Class A; 10-26-2019 at 09:42 AM.
10-26-2019, 07:56 AM   #2
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How broad is their brand and model support?
10-26-2019, 08:31 AM   #3
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Almost any digital Pentax you care to mention is supported. I do notice you can opt for their subscription model which is more expensive than Adobe CC in the UK at least. I'd only jump for a permanent licence. Additionally, you can opt for a Fujifilm-only or Sony-only version at a lesser price: presumably if you change brand of camera later you'll have to stump up again.

Last edited by StiffLegged; 10-26-2019 at 09:11 AM.
10-26-2019, 08:58 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Anyone buying a Capture One Pro 12 license now will receive a free upgrade to Capture One Pro 20 (the successor to version 12).

If you already own a C1 license, you need to login in before you see the upgrade pricing that applies with respect to the version number you already own.

Using a discount code (10% off) like OCT-AF-HZ15 by "Alex on RAW" further improves the deal one could currently get on a Capture One Pro 20 license for (the code is valid till the end of October).

Phase One always gave customers that bought a C1 license briefly before a new version came out a free upgrade to the new version (IIRC, it was a 30-day window). I like that they are now proactively telling you that a new C1 version is imminent. On the one hand it is no real surprise as it is "that" time of the year, but on the other hand you don't have buy a license you don't really want now and then live in fear that the new version won't come out in time for you to claim the free upgrade.

No new features have been announced but if you know that you'll upgrade to version 20 anyhow, now is probably a good time. I make no guarantees, though, that buying version 20 outright won't be a better deal. Seems very, very unlikely, though.
For a skip in major version from 12 to 20 there should be a real cause. I remember some critics about the limited functionality of the introduced plugin-architecture. And if you look what's available now, it's the same that was already was availlable starting this with Capture One Pro 12. Maybe they expanded the programming interface significantly?! - It would be a new starting point and something under the hood.

Do you have a link to a page where Phase One describes what they'll offer with Capture One Pro 20?

10-26-2019, 09:35 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
For a skip in major version from 12 to 20 there should be a real cause.
My guess is that the reason is rather profane. A technical leap from 12 to 20 would represent eight years of normal progress. That seems completely unrealistic.

The likely reason is that they wanted to avoid the "unlucky" 13 and seized an opportunity to align the version number with the year. After all, version 20 will be the current one in 2020.

Pure speculation on my part, though.

QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
Do you have a link to a page where Phase One describes what they'll offer with Capture One Pro 20?
They never disclose what they are up to.

No leaks that I know of either.

I skipped version 12 and bought a 20 license already. I don't want to get too far behind with as upgrades become more expensive, the further away you are from the latest version. I'm optimistic that version 20 will be worth synchronising with the version number again.
10-26-2019, 09:40 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
How broad is their brand and model support?
The latest release notes contain a complete list of all supported cameras. My K100D, K-5 II, and K-1 are all supported.

Unfortunately they still haven't created official support for the K-1 II. Potentially, the PEF files could be accepted nevertheless and using the camera profile from the K-1 should provide very good results. By renaming the profile file, one could even make the support look native. However, that's more cosmetic than anything because one can select any profile from any camera.

Also, DNG files are supported in general so anyone shooting DNG files with a K-1 II should be fine.

I use DNG files from my K-1 as well.

Last edited by Class A; 10-28-2019 at 06:39 AM.
10-26-2019, 10:40 AM - 1 Like   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The latest release notes contain a complete list of all supported cameras. My K100D, K-5 II, and K-1 II are all supported.

Unfortunately they still haven't created official support for the K-1 II. Potentially, the PEF files could be accepted nevertheless and using the camera profile from the K-1 should provide very good results. By renaming the profile file, one could even make the support look native. However, that's more cosmetic than anything because one can select any profile from any camera.

Also, DNG files are supported in general so anyone shooting DNG files with a K-1 II will be fine.
I use DNG files from my K-1 as well.
This not true. Yes CO12 will work with k1m2 dng files, but it does not treat them like raw files so you do not get the full capability of the program. For instance some of the white balance adjustment controls are missing. I asked phase one what else doesn't work and they said just about everything. Below is the response I got from phase one:

Hi,

Per the release notes (available here: https://www.captureone.com/en/features/release-notes), the camera isn’t supported yet in Capture One. Essentially, none of the features will work. There may be some workarounds via DNG, but it's not ideal. We don't discuss future product development. You aren’t the first to inquire, however, and I’ve added your case to the note for R&D to consider future implementation.

Best regards,

Phase One Technical Support

Last edited by 77me; 10-26-2019 at 10:52 AM.
10-26-2019, 12:01 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
Yes CO12 will work with k1m2 dng files, but it does not treat them like raw files so you do not get the full capability of the program.
Of course they are treated as raw files.

You are not seriously claiming that C1 only works with the preview JPEGs in the DNG files, are you?

Since Capture 9 general DNG files are supported. So camera-generated DNG files should certainly not do worse.

I can believe that some manufacturer notes are not read correctly, but that's different from not using the raw data in the DNG files.

It might be interesting to convert K-1 II PEF files using the Adobe DNG converter and then loading these converted files into C1.
I wonder whether some of the missing features become available then.
I'm not suggesting that this would represent an acceptable fix, but it could be worth investigating for some.

QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
For instance some of the white balance adjustment controls are missing.
How does this look like?

Are the controls in the UI but have no effect on the image?

What outside the WB controls is missing?

QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
"Essentially, none of the features will work."
This statement by Phase One support is complete hyperbole.

Most of the time Phase One support is really, really good.
However, occasionally, one gets someone who really doesn't know what they are talking about.

Overall, I find it very disappointing that they haven't added official dedicated K-1 II support yet.
I wonder whether the accelerator unit behaviour has something to do with that because they probably would have to change default noise reduction settings, i.e., couldn't just reuse what they did for the K-1.

10-26-2019, 12:06 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
This not true. Yes CO12 will work with k1m2 dng files, but it does not treat them like raw files so you do not get the full capability of the program. For instance some of the white balance adjustment controls are missing. I asked phase one what else doesn't work and they said just about everything. Below is the response I got from phase one:

Hi,

Per the release notes (available here: Capture One release notes), the camera isn’t supported yet in Capture One. Essentially, none of the features will work. There may be some workarounds via DNG, but it's not ideal. We don't discuss future product development. You aren’t the first to inquire, however, and I’ve added your case to the note for R&D to consider future implementation.

Best regards,

Phase One Technical Support
Since I don't believe that it's not possible to work with a K-1 II DNG file in C1Pro 12 I searched such an image in the internet - and found one.

Here's my finding. It works exactly as I described in the other thread. ICC Profile "DNG file Neutral" is chosen. I can adjust every aspect in white balance as you can for other camera raw files. I don't show the examples as screen copies since I don't know if it's allowed to do so with an image from somebody else.

It may be suboptimal if you don't use a camera specific adjusted icc profile. But it works without problem. I tried the C1Pro auto WB function with a color card DNG file. It worked nicely - no problem there as far as I can see ... at least not using my MacBook Pro 13" and Capture One Pro 12. Can't talk about Windows installations.

I was one of the first buyers of the K-1 in Germany at the Ricoh promo tour. I had the same "problem" with the K-1. So I simply worked out my images using the ICC profile "DNG File Neutral". Got some pretty nice results - really!

So IMO you shouldn't doubt too much. What's the risk? The only thing that may happen is that when a K-1 II specific ICC profile is delivered by Phase One, it may be automatically assigned to your existing K-1 II images. Then your worked out images based on the icc profile "DNG file neutral" may look off immediately. Then check if you want to change the assignment manually back to the old "DNG neutral profile" or rework the images based on the new K-1 II specific one. ... my 2ct.
10-26-2019, 12:07 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Of course they are treated as raw files.

You are not seriously claiming that C1 only works with the preview JPEGs in the DNG files, are you?

Since Capture 9 general DNG files are supported. So camera-generated DNG files should certainly not do worse.

I can believe that some manufacturer notes are not read correctly, but that's different from not using the raw data in the DNG files.

It might be interesting to convert K-1 II PEF files using the Adobe DNG converter and then loading these converted files into C1.
I wonder whether some of the missing features become available then.
I'm not suggesting that this would represent an acceptable fix, but it could be worth investigating for some.


How does this look like?

Are the controls in the UI but have no effect on the image?

What outside the WB controls is missing?


This statement by Phase One support is complete hyperbole.

Most of the time Phase One support is really, really good.
However, occasionally, one gets someone who really doesn't know what they are talking about.

Overall, I find it very disappointing that they haven't added official dedicated K-1 II support yet.
I wonder whether the accelerator unit behaviour has something to do with that because they probably would have to change default noise reduction settings, i.e., couldn't just reuse what they did for the K-1.
Don't know if it is hyperbole or not. The fact that CO says DNG instead of RAW for the file type, and none of the RAW white balance controls are available says to me that CO is using the jpg and not the raw data. If you shoot jpg, I suppose then it is hyperbole. What is not hyperbole is that phaseone added many other camera that are newer than the k1m2, but still has not added k1m2. I paid for 2 versions and got nothing for it. I am out.
10-26-2019, 12:26 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
The fact that CO says DNG instead of RAW for the file type, ...
Isn't that normal?

Where would it indicate the file type as "RAW" when it is a DNG file?

QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
... none of the RAW white balance controls are available
Could you please explain how that manifests?

Did you see @acoufap's post that confirms the opposite?

This is surely not a difference between Mac OS and Windows. If you want to I could try to find the DNG file myself and import it into my Windows installation of C1.

QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
...says to me that CO is using the jpg and not the raw data.
That doesn't follow at all.

It would be easy to test whether the raw data is used (I cannot imagine anything else at all) by pushing the exposure of an image. A JPEG will fall apart very quickly while the raw data would support much more pushing.

Again, in any case @acoufap confirmed that there are no DNG issues.

QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
If you shoot jpg, I suppose then it is hyperbole.
No, if it's only WB control that is missing (unconfirmed, AFAIC, please give us more to work with) and everything else is working then this is far from "Essentially, none of the features will work.".

QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
I paid for 2 versions and got nothing for it.
Are you saying you bought two versions and your only camera is a K-1 II, so you never got to use the software for anything but still paid for a second version (despite the release notes announcing that there still isn't K-1 II support)?

Last edited by Class A; 10-26-2019 at 12:38 PM.
10-26-2019, 12:33 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
Since I don't believe that it's not possible to work with a K-1 II DNG file in C1Pro 12 I searched such an image in the internet - and found one.
Thanks so much for doing this!

So much for the completely implausible statement by the Phase One support person "Essentially, none of the features will work.".

QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
I can adjust every aspect in white balance as you can for other camera raw files.
I expected nothing different.

Thanks again for confirming.

QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
It may be suboptimal if you don't use a camera specific adjusted icc profile.
You can choose any camera profile in C1 you like (via "Other", IIRC).

This means you could just use the K-1 II profile. No need to go with a completely generic one and you may actually prefer some of the Fuji profiles. Technically, they are not meant for the K-1's sensor but who cares as long as the outcome looks good, right?

As I mentioned before, by renaming a profile definition file one can make the profile appear in the camera-specific drop down menus, i.e., obviate the need to go via "Other".


QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
The only thing that may happen is that when a K-1 II specific ICC profile is delivered by Phase One, it may be automatically assigned to your existing K-1 II images.
This should not happen.

Only if no camera profile is associated with an image at all then I could imagine that an automagical assignment of a default camera profile is made.
However, if a neutral DNG profile is associated with an image then it shouldn't automatically be replaced with any other one.
10-26-2019, 12:49 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by 77me Quote
Don't know if it is hyperbole or not. The fact that CO says DNG instead of RAW for the file type, and none of the RAW white balance controls are available says to me that CO is using the jpg and not the raw data. If you shoot jpg, I suppose then it is hyperbole. What is not hyperbole is that phaseone added many other camera that are newer than the k1m2, but still has not added k1m2. I paid for 2 versions and got nothing for it. I am out.
Pentax out of camera dng is native raw. On displays you never see a raw file. What you see is always a rgb image representation. This is generated from the raw data of the raw file. So - since I see the image on my MacBook Pro display, the C1Pro demosaicing process works just fine.

What white balance parameters do you miss? - In C1Pro there are only two sliders: (in German) Kelvin and Farbton (I guess "Hue" in the English version). I'm not missing anything for the K-1 II - DNG file I got from the internet! Also available are the basic parameter attributes for the rgb color interpretation: "icc profile", "curve" and (raw converter) engine. Again - nothing is missing!

The main thing seems to me that you show some blind spots in your knowledge about raw files, their processing and maybe color management in general. We can't help if you if don't want believe.
10-26-2019, 12:59 PM   #14
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I probably skip this upgrade, and wait for the next one, unless it offers support for pixelshift. Or something else revolutionary. I need to wait for new version to be published before I decide.

Didn't understand the problem with white balance. Usually auto mode does it well enough for my needs.
10-26-2019, 01:10 PM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Thanks so much for doing this!

So much for the completely implausible statement by the Phase One support person "Essentially, none of the features will work.".


I expected nothing different.

Thanks again for confirming.


You can choose any camera profile in C1 you like (via "Other", IIRC).

This means you could just use the K-1 II profile. No need to go with a completely generic one and you may actually prefer some of the Fuji profiles. Technically, they are not meant for the K-1's sensor but who cares as long as the outcome looks good, right?

As I mentioned before, by renaming a profile definition file one can make the profile appear in the camera-specific drop down menus, i.e., obviate the need to go via "Other".



This should not happen.

Only if no camera profile is associated with an image at all then I could imagine that an automagical assignment of a default camera profile is made.
However, if a neutral DNG profile is associated with an image then it shouldn't automatically be replaced with any other one.
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Thanks so much for doing this!

So much for the completely implausible statement by the Phase One support person "Essentially, none of the features will work.".
If interested you can find such a dng file here: https://www.ephotozine.com/article/pentax-k-1-mark-ii-review-32158/performance ... apply auto WB and it's clear that it works as expected
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