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12-20-2019, 09:27 AM   #16
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I highly recommend reading the dpbestflow.org section on Adobe DNG. Proprietary raw files and DNG files have some similarities, but also several significant differences.

"RAW versus DNG: What are the advantages and disadvantages of DNG files?" is a good article discussing the pros and cons.


Last edited by EssJayEff; 12-20-2019 at 09:30 AM. Reason: added second paragraph
12-20-2019, 09:30 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by MrB1 Quote
Yes, the image data files created by a camera should be described as raw, not RAW, respecting the exemplary convention used by one of the primary players (possibly the most infuential) in this field, i.e. Adobe
Perhaps people use capital letters after the most vocal advocate of shooting raw, but then Jarhead's rather loud anyway.
12-20-2019, 10:27 AM   #18
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Dang . . . this is the article I meant to link: "DNG: The Pros, Cons, and Myths of the Adobe Raw File Format." "Haste makes waste!"
12-20-2019, 01:15 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by StiffLegged Quote
Perhaps people use capital letters after the most vocal advocate of shooting raw, but then Jarhead's rather loud anyway.


12-20-2019, 06:58 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlh Quote
"Raw" isn't an acronym, it's one of those computeriffic analogical term, i.e., "uncooked". It refers to a whole slew of proprietary file formats (one for Adobe, one for each camera manufacturer) that act as containers for the unprocessed data from the sensor as well as metadata from the lens and camera.
Yep. Thanks too for properly identifying DNG as proprietary. Adobe is very clear about its patents and the nature of its licensing of DNG.

QuoteOriginally posted by MrB1 Quote
Yes, the image data files created by a camera should be described as raw, not RAW
QuoteOriginally posted by StiffLegged Quote
Perhaps people use capital letters after the most vocal advocate of shooting raw, but then Jarhead's rather loud anyway.
I don't know Jarhead, but my understand of the use of "RAW" over "raw" is one of a convenient convention since the word "raw" infers unprocessed despite the data stored in such files being otherwise. It was all caps twenty years ago when I bought my Canon G2 and continues so today in common usage by photography-oriented writers and editors, probably due to the inertia of usage and possibly due to domain-specific style guides for technical writing


Steve
12-21-2019, 01:44 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I don't know Jarhead...
Oh, fortunate soul!
12-21-2019, 02:26 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by VILLAINofOZ Quote
This post is slightly off tangent from what is posted above, but sort of relevant.

I started using PEF for my photos, but have changed my camera setting to DNG as my computer wont show me a thumbnail of a PEF.
To view the PEF files I have to open them with a photo editor to see what they are and then either convert them to JPEG or DNG to view the thumbnails.

<snip>

Anyone have the same issue? Anyone have a workaround? I think I will need to convert a few thousand pics from PEF to DNG otherwise.
Irfanview (free) will let you view PEF files as well as many other formats.
12-21-2019, 04:42 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by 35mmfilmfan Quote
Irfanview (free) will let you view PEF files as well as many other formats.
Thank you very very much. I just installed Infranview with all the Plugins and it is fantastic.
The Thumbnail viewer within Infranview is exactly what I needed.
You have saved me a lot of time

12-21-2019, 04:42 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
*snip*

I don't know Jarhead, but my understand of the use of "RAW" over "raw" is one of a convenient convention since the word "raw" infers unprocessed despite the data stored in such files being otherwise. It was all caps twenty years ago when I bought my Canon G2 and continues so today in common usage by photography-oriented writers and editors, probably due to the inertia of usage and possibly due to domain-specific style guides for technical writing


Steve
+1
I will continue to use it in all caps as well, as I'm referring to a file category (albeit not a definite file type, such as .DNG) and want to make clear distinction between that and the adjective: "RAW file" vs. "raw file".
Also I find it easier to read, and it's easier to understand at a glance what one means.
And you're right, RAW files are all but raw... one could perhaps say blanched?
12-21-2019, 01:15 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by EssJayEff Quote
I highly recommend reading the dpbestflow.org section on Adobe DNG. Proprietary raw files and DNG files have some similarities, but also several significant differences.

"RAW versus DNG: What are the advantages and disadvantages of DNG files?" is a good article discussing the pros and cons.
The article is really informative. Thanks for sharing.

I used both PEF and DNG and generally it made no difference with most modern software (Rawtherapee, Darktable, Lightroom). Although is you're worried about compatibility issued, I guess DNG is the preferred option in that case.
12-21-2019, 02:27 PM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by EssJayEff Quote
Um. I see it's one of Prof. Northrup's scholarly articles. Thank you but forgive me if I pass, he's way over my head in technical understanding....
12-21-2019, 09:08 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by photolady95 Quote
I always shoot RAW and .DNG.
There normally is no good reason to do so.

The downside is doubling one's storage requirements and probably also making the camera slower in clearing the buffer.

The only reason for keeping raw (PEF) versions in addition to DNG files is to accommodate software that only offers generic DNG support and reserves some functionality for camera-specific raw formats. Often, however, software distinguishes between camera-generated DNG files versus generic DNG files that are the result of running the Adobe DNG converter on camera-specific raw files. The camera-specific DNG files then typically receive the same support as the native raw formats.

So in summary, shooting DNG only has definite advantages (e.g., not being required to update software in order to get support for a new camera model) and only in rather specific cases PEF files can bring additional value.
12-22-2019, 07:00 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by VILLAINofOZ Quote
Thank you very very much. I just installed Infranview with all the Plugins and it is fantastic.
The Thumbnail viewer within Infranview is exactly what I needed.
You have saved me a lot of time
Happy to help - have fun !
12-23-2019, 04:51 PM   #29
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From a data management standpoint, there are a couple of considerations regarding the choice between PEF and DNG.

A DNG file will contain the metadata (XMP record) within the file. When you make edits to the metadata or even use the developer in LR, those edits will be written directly to the DNG file. There are some risks that while not super likely are still risks: (1) each time you edit you are writing to the file, you could potentially cause a corruption issue or error to the file. (2) if you have a backup process (and you should), each time you edit the metadata, you will most likely have to back up the full file. This can be problematic in a network setting where the change of a few bytes leads to Mbs of backup.

Conversely, with a PEF file, the metadata is written to a separate XMP file. The file is small, and editing metadata means the original PEF file is never written to. In your backup routine, only the XMP files need to be backed up. The risks associated with this scenario are (1) that you end up with 2 files for every photo (PEF and XMP), (2) you have to be religious and diligent with file management. Moving an image means moving its xmp file with it, (3) Renaming an image can break the pairing of the PEF and XMP record. A good DAM software will deal with these issues appropriately as long as you are diligent and keep within the software (LR or other DAM). But, you may also end up with issues if you shoot raw+jpg. Some software may interpret the XMP file as belonging to the JPG, even though it isn't possible. That's not necessarily your problem, but software will often look for XMP files for every image before looking at an embedded XMP record; some RAW formats (like NEF) allow XMP to be written to the file itself.

Just food for thought. May not matter to many people reading, and there are obvious benefits to each format and flaw just from the DAM perspective.

Side note, for a while I shot PEF, but I was not good at managing the XMP files. I converted the PEFs to DNG. It seems a bit advantageous at first because the DNGs are a little smaller that way (vs. shooting from the camera). This was before lossy DNGs, so presumably it was just a better algorithm by Adobe than Pentax. The problem with those DNG files is that some software that supports Pentax's DNG files will not support a DNG file that comes out of the Adobe converter (DXO specifically). I'm not sure why it should matter that much, but it does. I now just shoot DNG. I'm not fond of backing up the full DNG when I am only keywording my files, but I don't backup through the internet, so I'm not using bandwidth as much as just wearing on the harddrive (which is minor overall).

Finally, I've never actually corrupted a DNG file because I was writing to it too much. I only note that because it is a common argument of those who really want to protect their raw data. I'm sure it can happen, but (knock on wood), I've not had the problem.
01-05-2020, 08:58 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by emalvick Quote
From a data management standpoint, there are a couple of considerations regarding the choice between PEF and DNG.

A DNG file will contain the metadata (XMP record) within the file. When you make edits to the metadata or even use the developer in LR, those edits will be written directly to the DNG file. There are some risks that while not super likely are still risks: (1) each time you edit you are writing to the file, you could potentially cause a corruption issue or error to the file. (2) if you have a backup process (and you should), each time you edit the metadata, you will most likely have to back up the full file. This can be problematic in a network setting where the change of a few bytes leads to Mbs of backup.

Conversely, with a PEF file, the metadata is written to a separate XMP file. The file is small, and editing metadata means the original PEF file is never written to. In your backup routine, only the XMP files need to be backed up. The risks associated with this scenario are (1) that you end up with 2 files for every photo (PEF and XMP), (2) you have to be religious and diligent with file management. Moving an image means moving its xmp file with it, (3) Renaming an image can break the pairing of the PEF and XMP record. A good DAM software will deal with these issues appropriately as long as you are diligent and keep within the software (LR or other DAM). But, you may also end up with issues if you shoot raw+jpg. Some software may interpret the XMP file as belonging to the JPG, even though it isn't possible. That's not necessarily your problem, but software will often look for XMP files for every image before looking at an embedded XMP record; some RAW formats (like NEF) allow XMP to be written to the file itself.

Just food for thought. May not matter to many people reading, and there are obvious benefits to each format and flaw just from the DAM perspective.

Side note, for a while I shot PEF, but I was not good at managing the XMP files. I converted the PEFs to DNG. It seems a bit advantageous at first because the DNGs are a little smaller that way (vs. shooting from the camera). This was before lossy DNGs, so presumably it was just a better algorithm by Adobe than Pentax. The problem with those DNG files is that some software that supports Pentax's DNG files will not support a DNG file that comes out of the Adobe converter (DXO specifically). I'm not sure why it should matter that much, but it does. I now just shoot DNG. I'm not fond of backing up the full DNG when I am only keywording my files, but I don't backup through the internet, so I'm not using bandwidth as much as just wearing on the harddrive (which is minor overall).

Finally, I've never actually corrupted a DNG file because I was writing to it too much. I only note that because it is a common argument of those who really want to protect their raw data. I'm sure it can happen, but (knock on wood), I've not had the problem.

I had thought there was a reason to do PNG if you are using software that supports it. This might be it.


But if you are using free software, I would think DNG is much more likely to be used in all those other programs?
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