Pentax/Camera Marketplace |
Pentax Items for Sale |
Wanted Pentax Items |
Pentax Deals |
Deal Finder & Price Alerts |
Price Watch Forum |
My Marketplace Activity |
List a New Item |
Get seller access! |
Pentax Stores |
Pentax Retailer Map |
Pentax Photos |
Sample Photo Search |
Recent Photo Mosaic |
Today's Photos |
Free Photo Storage |
Member Photo Albums |
User Photo Gallery |
Exclusive Gallery |
Photo Community |
Photo Sharing Forum |
Critique Forum |
Official Photo Contests |
World Pentax Day Gallery |
World Pentax Day Photo Map |
Pentax Resources |
Articles and Tutorials |
Member-Submitted Articles |
Recommended Gear |
Firmware Update Guide |
Firmware Updates |
Pentax News |
Pentax Lens Databases |
Pentax Lens Reviews |
Pentax Lens Search |
Third-Party Lens Reviews |
Lens Compatibility |
Pentax Serial Number Database |
In-Depth Reviews |
SLR Lens Forum |
Sample Photo Archive |
Forum Discussions |
New Posts |
Today's Threads |
Photo Threads |
Recent Photo Mosaic |
Recent Updates |
Today's Photos |
Quick Searches |
Unanswered Threads |
Recently Liked Posts |
Forum RSS Feed |
Go to Page... |
|
23 Likes | Search this Thread |
02-10-2020, 02:10 AM - 1 Like | #16 |
In the past I've calibrated with my Syder 2 and its supplied software, but I've always suspected that the calibration tended slightly to the warm side. As a result of this thread I've given DisplayCal a try over the weekend, and the results are obviously better from the very first glance at the screen. The hint of a warm cast has gone, and the overall effect is of a wider palette of colours with small differences between tones more distinctively rendered. And surprisingly, presumably because of the contrast characteristics of the new calibration, everything looks sharper. It feels like I'm finally getting to see my photos the way they actually look. Problem is, I now want to re-edit half of them. Last edited by Dartmoor Dave; 02-10-2020 at 02:13 AM. Reason: typo | |
These users Like Dartmoor Dave's post: |
02-10-2020, 03:26 AM | #17 |
So just to clarify, I have had my monitor calibrated, I just haven't done the regular recalibrations and have also changed the office/ambient lighting of where the computer sits quite a few times since the 18 months ago time it was calibrated. But I should say that the calibration once performed didn't seem to wildly change anything from the uncalibrated, brightness seemed to take the biggest hit in terms of obvious change. I'm just curious as to how important it is, how regularly we must do it, Regarding re-profiling, displays can change with use over time... gradually and imperceptibly, such that we don't notice. But a display that was profiled a year ago may no longer be accurately producing the correct colour tones and luminosity. For amateur use, I suspect the differences may be relatively minor, but a professional will want to ensure a good level of accuracy - if not for him or herself, then at least for clients. I re-profile my displays perhaps every six months or so, which I'd say is ample for my purposes - perhaps even overkill. If I was a pro, I'd probably do it monthly or every couple of months. I'm just curious as to how important it is, how regularly we must do it, and even we now have people saying that they bought x product, used the supplied software and didn't like what they were seeings so used y software instead... How is this calibration... I mean that's the user actually deciding the look they like vs what is recommended... what if they have bad judgement and x was the better software than y? How is this any different from someone buying a decent monitor right out of the box and just working on it, even if it is not absolutely perfect? I'm just curious as to how important it is, how regularly we must do it, I'm just curious as to how important it is, how regularly we must do it, In the 18 months since I had my monitor calibrated has anyone ever said to be "you know bruce... that skin tone looks a bit aff!"? Nope.. not once. I should probably have recalibrated half a dozen times but didn't. The difference is my workflow was not studio work for a lipstick company where colour accuracy is paramount. I'm questioning; How important is external calibration of a newly purchased photography geared monitor for the purpose of photography work that sits outside the realm of studio absolute colour accuracy? I say new because that's where I'm currently at, researching for a new monitor and I'm debating whether I feel the need to factor in (at least at this time) an external colour calibration device into that equation (vs borrowing my mates once every 18 months... and which I stated at the beginning seemed to be somewhat broken). Right now I'm using two 'old' monitors, a monitor for gaming and an old Asus 27 inch 1080p. It's actually been years since I have connected these displays up and I can see a huge difference in colours from the previous monitor (which has now died) which was the Philips 43 inch 4k monitor. I can understand more the necessity of colour calibration for older monitors, natively they seem very yucky indeed, however with modern monitors geared towards industry professionals? Given that you don't like gross inaccuracy, you might ask yourself "how accurate is accurate enough"? For me, the answer is "as accurate as is reasonably possible". If it's different for you, that's a personal decision. But, as per our discussions in your UV filter thread, be sure that you're fully aware of the shortcomings in your choice, and that you're comfortable with them. Might there be a time in the future where one of your clients isn't satisfied because her beautiful, bright red dress looks somewhat crimson in your photos? Or that her baby blue sports car looks almost turquoise? Or her beautiful golden-brown eyes look more like hazel? OK, these are perhaps extreme examples, but I'm trying to make a point. Either you care about colour accuracy and colour management, or you don't. Am i really going to need to do colour calibration frequently on a display like this for example? BenQ 32" Designer Monitor, 2560x1440 2K QHD, 100% Rec.709, sRGB, Hotkey Puck, Dual View, HDMI, DP, Black, 32/inch, PD3200Q: Monitors: amazon.com.au?tag=pentaxforums-20& I bet out of the box it would be doing better than the 18 month old calibrated (and dying) 43 inch 4k monitor? (my work can be seen here; Eddy Summers and here; Eddy Summers | Flickr fyi. If you see some colours looking weird too you and not true to life... that would more likely be my presets, plugins and 3Dluts at play than bad colour accuracy caused from a badly calibrated screen. Only you can decide Last edited by BigMackCam; 02-10-2020 at 03:33 AM. | |
02-10-2020, 03:34 AM | #18 |
In the past I've calibrated with my Syder 2 and its supplied software, but I've always suspected that the calibration tended slightly to the warm side. As a result of this thread I've given DisplayCal a try over the weekend, and the results are obviously better from the very first glance at the screen. The hint of a warm cast has gone, and the overall effect is of a wider palette of colours with small differences between tones more distinctively rendered. And surprisingly, presumably because of the contrast characteristics of the new calibration, everything looks sharper. It feels like I'm finally getting to see my photos the way they actually look. Problem is, I now want to re-edit half of them. If calibration method x makes something look like 1 and calibration method y makes something look like 2... then which is giving the correct colour accuracy?! Accurate to what?! Is one doing a bad job? If so how do we know? Is it doing a bad job for all computers its being used with or just that particular monitor or computer specs? How can you trust it or what you see? Not meaning to single you out Dave, but if the Spyder 2 supplied software rendered things to being 'slightly warm' and you edited in that environment, then perhaps it wasn't warm... it was just your eyes that saw it that way? If my calibration monitor seemed 'normal' (not overly cool or warm to me) and I'm looking at your images then perhaps they are perfectly fine, and if I compared the image on my screen and your screen they may look the same and you just see 'warm' on both monitors because that's the way you are? Are we trusting our eyes or a computer here? So how does calibration software help anyone at all if they are all doing something different? How is it any better than a human coming along who is perhaps just a bit better with colours than average joe blogg and reaches over and fiddles with the monitor and goes "there... that looks better." I say this because I got my monitor calibrated and it didn't radically change. And was it Bigmac or someone else here say that some new monitor out of the box was 99% close to what the calibration tool gave once calibrated? Like... to me it seems a lot of money to spend for a potential 1% difference (that also seems to be subjective to personal preference?) I totally get it... if you're employment is to do with super high end colour accuracy to do with design or advertising... you might need to take this stuff very seriously AND more importantly everyone you work with have exactly the same screens and calibration so that collab work is consistent... but for everyone else... is this stuff really necessary? Is it a left over tool suited to a time when monitor technology was not as good as it is now? | |
02-10-2020, 03:37 AM - 1 Like | #19 |
In the past I've calibrated with my Syder 2 and its supplied software, but I've always suspected that the calibration tended slightly to the warm side. As a result of this thread I've given DisplayCal a try over the weekend, and the results are obviously better from the very first glance at the screen. The hint of a warm cast has gone, and the overall effect is of a wider palette of colours with small differences between tones more distinctively rendered. And surprisingly, presumably because of the contrast characteristics of the new calibration, everything looks sharper. It feels like I'm finally getting to see my photos the way they actually look. Problem is, I now want to re-edit half of them. | |
These users Like BigMackCam's post: |
02-10-2020, 03:44 AM - 1 Like | #20 |
I totally get it... if you're employment is to do with super high end colour accuracy to do with design or advertising... you might need to take this stuff very seriously AND more importantly everyone you work with have exactly the same screens and calibration so that collab work is consistent... but for everyone else... is this stuff really necessary? Is it a left over tool suited to a time when monitor technology was not as good as it is now? | |
These users Like BigMackCam's post: |
02-10-2020, 05:01 AM - 2 Likes | #21 |
May be worth stating that it is quite possible to get perfectly satisfactory prints without even having heard the words colour management. Just shoot and enjoy sending your files to any old lab for printing. Use half a dozen labs and you are likely to get half a dozen result that do not actually match for colour or density one to another and pretty certain that none will actually match what you see on screen looking at an edited image in soft proofing with your print near to screen and properly illuminated. IF you and your work demands a WYSIWYG with finished prints or others viewing your images within a colour managed environment then calbration and profiling are essential parts of the workflow .... I'm just curious as to how important it is, how regularly we must do it, and even we now have people saying that they bought x product, used the supplied software and didn't like what they were seeings so used y software instead... How is this calibration... I mean that's the user actually deciding the look they like vs what is recommended... what if they have bad judgement and x was the better software than y? How is this any different from someone buying a decent monitor right out of the box and just working on it, even if it is not absolutely perfect? Using the supplied software vs seeing better in another product is a bit of a 'Red Herring' as in many cases it is likely to be attributed to operator finger trouble, assuming there is nothing wrong with the equipment or editing environment (ambient light, screen reflections). To try and judge by eye alone if a screen is too warm or too cold is folly. The reason I say this is because a white point of D65 or D50 is an exact temperature and not subject to variation. As an aside 6500k and 5000k are not exact and can be variation. The problem most experience with software calibration is that once the White Point etc have been specified the user is then faced with trying to manually adjust the monitors colour to match as closely as possible what the software asks for. This may be either by adjusting the monitor controls manually or via the graphic card driver. A much better, more accurate method and one that I would not be without is the ability of a monitor to be hardware calibrated, directly adjusting the monitor LUT's (originally limited to Eizo and NEC pro monitors now seen on quite a few consumer units) Hardware calibration is the method of adjusting color directly by adjusting the settings inside the monitor. With hardware calibration, the target color is not reproduced through the graphic card output where all or a certain combination of white point, gamma, and brightness are reduced. Quote: In the 18 months since I had my monitor calibrated has anyone ever said to be "you know bruce... that skin tone looks a bit aff!"? Nope.. not once. I should probably have recalibrated half a dozen times but didn't. Quote: The difference is my workflow was not studio work for a lipstick company where colour accuracy is paramount. I'm questioning; How important is external calibration of a newly purchased photography geared monitor for the purpose of photography work that sits outside the realm of studio absolute colour accuracy? Quote: I say new because that's where I'm currently at, researching for a new monitor and I'm debating whether I feel the need to factor in (at least at this time) an external colour calibration device into that equation (vs borrowing my mates once every 18 months... and which I stated at the beginning seemed to be somewhat broken). .... Quote: Am i really going to need to do colour calibration frequently on a display like this for example? BenQ 32" Designer Monitor, 2560x1440 2K QHD, 100% Rec.709, sRGB, Hotkey Puck, Dual View, HDMI, DP, Black, 32/inch, PD3200Q: Monitors: amazon.com.au?tag=pentaxforums-20& Quote: I guess I'm still a little confused over 'calibration'. Calibrating what exactly? If red is R =255 G=0 and B=0 then it has a certain 'look' to it. If I'm in PS with one calibrated monitor and I select that red and paint it in PS, then on another monitor (which is crappier and uncalibrated) and using the same value (255, 0, 0) and it looks different, then how does calibration work on the bad monitor to help it look more like the calibrated red. Isn't it just a physical limitation of the screen? Does calibration skew things? Would I be using a different value (172, 0, 0) to get the same kind of red on the now corrected calibrated naff monitor to get something that looks like the red on the better monitor? Does that then mean working on images on a monitor that is calibrated but not up to things tech wise actually get you in more trouble? Quote: It's something I've mentioned to clients in the past as well. When I have finished some first drafts and share them, they might look wildly different on their phones or screens. Should I perhaps be calibrating my monitor to their device output so if I know my client is using iphone 7 to judge my work, then if I also use iphone 7 calibration settings and get my home monitor to show colours the same, then at least I know when I edit and share my work with them we are on the same page? That kinda makes more sense to me... | |
These users Like TonyW's post: |
02-10-2020, 06:32 AM - 2 Likes | #22 |
I think the slightly warm cast I was getting using the Spyder software was probably a driver issue. I remember that when I originally installed the software on Windows 7 there was an obvious magenta cast, so I downloaded updated drivers and got much more acceptable results from them. Since then I've been working on the basis of the calibration being good enough for my amateur needs but probably not strictly accurate. DisplayCal runs a much more thorough range of tests, and takes a heck of a lot longer than the Spyder software did. The only visual test of accuracy I can do is to compare a shot of a colorcheck card on the calibrated screen against the card itself, and on that basis it looks to me as if DisplayCal is more accurate. I'm absolutely certain that calibration is necessary in my case. Looking at a shot of a colorcheck card on my own humble Acer monitor with no calibration makes it completely obvious that the monitor's default colours are way off, and the monitor's limited range of built-in adjustments aren't enough to get it looking even close to right. I know that you're shooting for pay nowadays, and on that basis I'd say that monitor calibration is a non-optional necessity, especially if you're doing any wedding work. Trust me, you do NOT want to face the wrath of a bridezilla on the warpath because you've made the all-important dress look very slightly the wrong shade. | |
These users Like Dartmoor Dave's post: |
02-10-2020, 09:34 AM | #23 |
Bruce: Let me try this analogy as an answer to your question about self calibrating to make the image look right. You might be able to selectively adjust RGB to make an image look like you think it should, or even an electronic version of an x-rite color checker Passport look the same as one in the hand illuminated at the correct color temperature, but when you were done it is unlikely that a directed RGB = {255, 255, 255} input would have the correct luminosity *(e.g., 80 nits), and it is unlikely that the "gamma" would be the desired 2.2 over the brightness range of dimmer-than-maximum images or image parts. For these corrections to be made, a matrix of values has to be constructed from a matrix of measurements such that RGB is properly tweaked over the gray-scale range of your monitor. This is a fairly recursive process to do manually, and even an automated system has to solve a set of simultaneous equations to obtain a proper result. (I assume that the algorithm used is akin to the one used in Excel's Solve program, but perhaps other approaches have been adopted.) Thus, manually "improving" a factory calibrated monitor that has aged a bit may well be counterproductive. I should add that the calibration programs attempt to also minimize the error in display of intermediate colors because display generated red, green and blue are unlikely to exactly match the eye's photosensitivity curves designated by those colors. kas | |
02-19-2020, 08:45 PM - 1 Like | #24 |
Hey everyone, Sorry, got side tracked and meant to reply. I think I either need to admit a few things; 1) I need greater education on calibration, what it means and if it's absolutely necessary for the kind of professional work I do. 2) Whether it's an additional $300AUD worth of finances spent to take me to an additional 1-2% accuracy over stock monitor calibration (and my own experience/intuition), which is pretty much meaningless once I take my images through the various presets and LUTs. Please visit the following pages that were all edited on monitors that had zero calibration, had calibration, had calibration that was well and truly due to being calibrated again, and the entire office moved to a new room/ambient light; Eddy Summers - #wilsonyoumarryme2019 These wedding pictures, the grooms and brides, these tones of blue and red are not the exact shade that was worn on the day, you could say they were 'enhanced', bride and groom loved the shots. Eddy Summers - product Eddy Summers - live Ok, that'll do. When I have wanted to re-edit older images it's had nothing to do with colours. My editing skills have become more advanced and I know I can derive a better edit than 2yrs ago (also because I own and paid for more editing software and tools). Anyway, I bought a new monitor this morning, my potato pc can't even go past 8bit right now anyway so I just settled on what I consider to being the 'budget' solution for the time being; BenQ 32" Designer Monitor, 2560x1440 2K QHD, 100% Rec.709, sRGB, Hotkey Puck, Dual View, HDMI, DP, Black, 32/inch, PD3200Q: Monitors: amazon.com.au?tag=pentaxforums-20& It'll be interesting to see how its sRGB mode is straight out of the box. I'll think about colour calibration at a later date, or when I see a special on... | |
These users Like BruceBanner's post: |
02-20-2020, 01:48 AM | #25 |
(1) That 1-2% inaccuracy from a good quality, factory-calibrated monitor could turn into 5-10% over time without you realising it. This is why professionals frequently re-profile their displays and why, even for my own amateur use, I do so every few months. (2) Colour accuracy is never meaningless. Per my earlier comment, it ensures that what you've created is what you thought you created, rather than something different. If you were painting a canvas with oils and a brush - or even painting your home - you wouldn't wear tinted sun-glasses that caused inaccuracies in your colour and luminance perception. You'd want to accurately perceive what you were painting and know that what you created is an accurate representation of what you intended. (3) Following on from point 2, what you do to your images with presets etc. is immaterial. It's not necessarily that your images need to be colour accurate when completed (although if you were, say, a product photographer, that would be the case) - it's that you ought to know what you see on your display is an accurate representation of your images. Otherwise, what you believe looks "right" may not be right when viewed or printed on a colour managed and profiled device. Please visit the following pages that were all edited on monitors that had zero calibration, had calibration, had calibration that was well and truly due to being calibrated again, and the entire office moved to a new room/ambient light; ... These wedding pictures, the grooms and brides, these tones of blue and red are not the exact shade that was worn on the day, you could say they were 'enhanced', bride and groom loved the shots. ... Regarding software... having previously been a Lightroom guy, I now mostly use Darktable and/or RawTherapee and GIMP (all free) for processing and editing, and DisplayCAL (also free) for display profiling. They all work very well indeed. Anyway, I bought a new monitor this morning, my potato pc can't even go past 8bit right now anyway so I just settled on what I consider to being the 'budget' solution for the time being; BenQ 32" Designer Monitor, 2560x1440 2K QHD, 100% Rec.709, sRGB, Hotkey Puck, Dual View, HDMI, DP, Black, 32/inch, PD3200Q: Monitors: amazon.com.au?tag=pentaxforums-20& It'll be interesting to see how its sRGB mode is straight out of the box. I'll think about colour calibration at a later date, or when I see a special on... Last edited by BigMackCam; 02-20-2020 at 03:55 AM. | |
02-20-2020, 02:12 AM | #26 |
A much better, more accurate method and one that I would not be without is the ability of a monitor to be hardware calibrated, directly adjusting the monitor LUT's (originally limited to Eizo and NEC pro monitors now seen on quite a few consumer units) Hardware calibration is the method of adjusting color directly by adjusting the settings inside the monitor. With hardware calibration, the target color is not reproduced through the graphic card output where all or a certain combination of white point, gamma, and brightness are reduced. | |
02-20-2020, 02:44 AM | #27 |
In the end, the only thing that matters with wedding photos is that the bride has to like them. But. . . looking through the set, in the shot of the couple with the dogs the dress looks white but in the rest of the photos it has got a very slight rose coloured cast(*). So the question is: what colour was the dress really, and why does it change from shot to shot? If it really was slightly pink then it should look consistently that way. The photos are beautiful, and I've got no intention of criticising your skills because you're one of the most talented photographers on this forum. But sooner or later, if you're taking money to photograph weddings, getting the colour of the dress correct and consistent is going to become an issue. (*)There's a very slight rose coloured tint to the dress on my monitor, which I've recently calibrated using DisplayCAL. I'd be very grateful if others could say what shade of white they are seeing in the dress on their screens, because it would help me to know if my recent recalibration is accurate. | |
02-20-2020, 03:03 AM - 1 Like | #28 |
In the end, the only thing that matters with wedding photos is that the bride has to like them. But. . . looking through the set, in the shot of the couple with the dogs the dress looks white but in the rest of the photos it has got a very slight rose coloured cast(*). So the question is: what colour was the dress really, and why does it change from shot to shot? If it really was slightly pink then it should look consistently that way. The photos are beautiful, and I've got no intention of criticising your skills because you're one of the most talented photographers on this forum. But sooner or later, if you're taking money to photograph weddings, getting the colour of the dress correct and consistent is going to become an issue. (*)There's a very slight rose coloured tint to the dress on my monitor, which I've recently calibrated using DisplayCAL. I'd be very grateful if others could say what shade of white they are seeing in the dress on their screens, because it would help me to know if my recent recalibration is accurate. That said, it's a perfectly acceptable tint, the trouble with white wedding dresses is they tend to pick up unexpected tints and that's before we get to printing them out. Excellent wedding shots though, natural, well posed and a lovely feel to them all. Plus you got everyones head and feet in, always a bonus! | |
These users Like 3by2's post: |
02-20-2020, 03:20 AM - 1 Like | #29 |
Bruce, when you are doing a important shoot do you incorporate a colour target, like a ColorChecker Passport, at any point in the shoot? Would probably be useful.
| |
These users Like rawr's post: |
02-20-2020, 03:24 AM - 1 Like | #30 |
(*)There's a very slight rose coloured tint to the dress on my monitor, which I've recently calibrated using DisplayCAL. I'd be very grateful if others could say what shade of white they are seeing in the dress on their screens, because it would help me to know if my recent recalibration is accurate. I will say once more, though - fantastic photography, both in terms of composition and processing. My comments around colour management and profiling take nothing away from that... | |
These users Like BigMackCam's post: |
|
Bookmarks |
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it! |
calibration, photography, photoshop, spyder, tool, update, win |
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
k20d gordon's tool - border tool | Akarak | Troubleshooting and Beginner Help | 2 | 04-24-2013 05:58 AM |
Where can I buy a monitor calibration tool or get my monitor calibrated, I'm in Texas | JGB | Photographic Technique | 10 | 12-22-2010 12:47 AM |
A question for those using the Pantone Huey pro monitor calibration tool | bdery | Digital Processing, Software, and Printing | 2 | 11-19-2010 05:46 AM |
Color Calibration Tool Review | Class A | Photographic Technique | 5 | 05-25-2010 01:53 AM |