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04-12-2020, 01:25 PM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Except multi-shot technique is usable 5%? 10%? of situations?
That's true of most the camera's features. What percentage of photographs use f/1.4, f/22, 1 sec shutter speed, 1/18000 second shutter speed, bulb mode, flash, tungsten white balance, multi-exposure mode, 2-second delay, mirror-up, etc.

At one level, our cameras are a big bundle of rarely-used features. At another level, each rarely used feature is the best feature of the camera under particular conditions.

04-12-2020, 06:24 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
First I convert the PS file to TIFF and then I use SilverEfex plugin to convert the RGB-image to B&W which produces cleaner output than I can achieve with Photoshop (or Lightroom channel mixer). Both approaches are better than non-PS B&W conversion which is prone to artifacting with more radical channel mixing which does not usually happen with PS file at all.
OK...makes sense. Thanks!


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04-12-2020, 09:10 PM   #33
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Some more comparisons. After hearing that LR now supports Pixelshifted files I just straight imported the native 144mb DNG file into LR (0814) and compared against the 75mb PS2DNG generated DNG file (0814-(1)) (and synced them);



And then compared the native 0814 against the standalone 40mb DNG (0815);



From this result I am convinced LR can handle K-1 native pixelshifted files suffice no motion is in the shot and that PS2DNG's version of a 75mb file is actually slightly worse that just dealing with the native DNG file and thus offers no benefit whatsoever.

Only using DCU5/SikyPix or RT would be advantageous with its advanced Motion Correction tools.

If only there was a way to generate a Tiff from RT that upon import into LR resembled something more of a native DNG, that would be great (because I tried that and the colours are completely different and image much more washed out).
04-12-2020, 11:27 PM   #34
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Ahhh, the famous four frames in one pixel shift file. At ISO100, all standard pixel shift processing are flawed, except if the output would be 16bit deep or 144Mpixels large, because 4 frames at 14bits depth (iso100) per pixel yield 2 addition bits of info (14+2=>16bits). So for the extra information collected by pixel shift not to be lost, we should use either 16bits deep TIF over 36Mp (K1) or 8bits deep TIF/JPEG over 144Mp. Up-scaling to 144Mp directly from RAW PS deliver substantially higher quality. So maybe PS2DNG remaps DNG 14bits to DNG 16bits?

04-13-2020, 12:49 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Ahhh, the famous four frames in one pixel shift file. At ISO100, all standard pixel shift processing are flawed, except if the output would be 16bit deep or 144Mpixels large, because 4 frames at 14bits depth (iso100) per pixel yield 2 addition bits of info (14+2=>16bits). So for the extra information collected by pixel shift not to be lost, we should use either 16bits deep TIF over 36Mp (K1) or 8bits deep TIF/JPEG over 144Mp. Up-scaling to 144Mp directly from RAW PS deliver substantially higher quality. So maybe PS2DNG remaps DNG 14bits to DNG 16bits?
Once again a lot of that goes over my dumb head. All I'm seeing from my test shot is;

1st Place = native pixelshift file from camera, a 144mb DNG file imported to LR

2nd Place = PS2DNG file (75mb) imported to LR

3rd Place = non pixelshift file imported to LR
04-13-2020, 01:10 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
1st Place = native pixelshift file from camera, a 144mb DNG file imported to LR2nd Place = PS2DNG file (75mb) imported to LR3rd Place = non pixelshift file imported to LR
Good to know. What I'm saying is you may see more difference after exporting, or by pushing shadows, simply because displays can't show you directly the difference between 16bits and 10bits.
04-13-2020, 01:23 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Good to know. What I'm saying is you may see more difference after exporting, or by pushing shadows, simply because displays can't show you directly the difference between 16bits and 10bits.
Ok. If you have a good look at my examples you will see shadows pushed to max. For me I am stuck at 8bit viewing due to awful GPU, however if I can see a difference at 8bit then I'm imagining it's even more pronounced benefit on better screens and computers capable of seeing more bits.

04-13-2020, 01:34 AM - 2 Likes   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Ahhh, the famous four frames in one pixel shift file. At ISO100, all standard pixel shift processing are flawed, except if the output would be 16bit deep or 144Mpixels large, because 4 frames at 14bits depth (iso100) per pixel yield 2 addition bits of info (14+2=>16bits). So for the extra information collected by pixel shift not to be lost, we should use either 16bits deep TIF over 36Mp (K1) or 8bits deep TIF/JPEG over 144Mp. Up-scaling to 144Mp directly from RAW PS deliver substantially higher quality. So maybe PS2DNG remaps DNG 14bits to DNG 16bits?
The bit depth doesn't increase by using pixelshift. Pixelshift increases the accuracy of the pixels, the correctness of each bit.

A camera could theoretically output 20bit deep noise or interpolated values with only 4bit accurate data?

---------- Post added 04-13-20 at 01:51 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
If only there was a way to generate a Tiff from RT that upon import into LR resembled something more of a native DNG, that would be great (because I tried that and the colours are completely different and image much more washed out).
RT can match the sooc files with pretty good accuracy. In my experience you should ensure the following configuration

1. Exposure module > Auto-matched tone curve
2. Colour > Colour management > Input profile > Custom (select preferred Adobe dcp from the LR installation "CameraProfiles/Camera/Pentax K-1/Pentax K-1 Camera Natural.dcp") Make sure you pick the "Camera" rather than "Adobe Standard" profile for emulating sooc. Only "Base table" and "Look table" boxes should be checked.*
3. For pixelshift apply the preset from the Processing profiles > bundled profiles > Pixelshift > PS iso low
4. Apply further sharpening to taste using the tools under the "Detail" tab for instance sharpening, local contrast, micro contrast.
5. You could also ensure that the RAW tab has "Chromatic aberration correction" > auto correction and "Capture sharpening" with the auto checkbox ticked. The chromatic aberration correction can affect the look of files slightly so you might want to check your files to see if it works for you. CA correction must be applied in raw, you can't do it on demosaiced files so you have to do in in RT if you need it.

Save the above using the arrow disk icon at top right. Go into settings using the mixing icon and choose the "Dynamic profile rules" tab. Click "new" at the bottom. Select your previously saved pp3 file under "Processing Profile" > "My profiles" then select "Image type" > "Pixel Shift". This should give you a good baseline image by just exporting your pixelshifted files to tiff. No further tweaking required.

*Note that the Colour management setting "auto matched camera profile" is likely to be the most accurate but you'll loose the "Pentax colours".

There is now also ART https://bitbucket.org/agriggio/art/wiki/Home a fork ie. copy of Rawtherapee with a somewhat optimised/simplified set of tools and quite a few additional tools such as masking auto perspective correction, film grain etc. It's a different Rawtherapee and works much the same.

Last edited by house; 04-13-2020 at 02:08 AM.
04-13-2020, 01:59 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
A camera could theoretically output 20bit deep noise or interpolated values with only 4bit accurate data?
The interpolation of the last significant bits give fractions of bits on a 14bits scale that are converted to integer bits on a 16bits scale. So you do get extra bit depth by moving to 16bits coding export. When staying with 14bits, the extra depth information is discarded. However up-sampling leave the interpolation process to printer and human eye. We are splitting hairs here, but I really see 30% quality improvement from PS when exporting to a 14720 x 9824 file for viewing or printing, especially in the center of the lens where the lens is sharp and being mostly diffraction limited.
04-13-2020, 03:55 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
The bit depth doesn't increase by using pixelshift. Pixelshift increases the accuracy of the pixels, the correctness of each bit.

A camera could theoretically output 20bit deep noise or interpolated values with only 4bit accurate data?

---------- Post added 04-13-20 at 01:51 AM ----------



RT can match the sooc files with pretty good accuracy. In my experience you should ensure the following configuration

1. Exposure module > Auto-matched tone curve
2. Colour > Colour management > Input profile > Custom (select preferred Adobe dcp from the LR installation "CameraProfiles/Camera/Pentax K-1/Pentax K-1 Camera Natural.dcp") Make sure you pick the "Camera" rather than "Adobe Standard" profile for emulating sooc. Only "Base table" and "Look table" boxes should be checked.*
3. For pixelshift apply the preset from the Processing profiles > bundled profiles > Pixelshift > PS iso low
4. Apply further sharpening to taste using the tools under the "Detail" tab for instance sharpening, local contrast, micro contrast.
5. You could also ensure that the RAW tab has "Chromatic aberration correction" > auto correction and "Capture sharpening" with the auto checkbox ticked. The chromatic aberration correction can affect the look of files slightly so you might want to check your files to see if it works for you. CA correction must be applied in raw, you can't do it on demosaiced files so you have to do in in RT if you need it.

Save the above using the arrow disk icon at top right. Go into settings using the mixing icon and choose the "Dynamic profile rules" tab. Click "new" at the bottom. Select your previously saved pp3 file under "Processing Profile" > "My profiles" then select "Image type" > "Pixel Shift". This should give you a good baseline image by just exporting your pixelshifted files to tiff. No further tweaking required.

*Note that the Colour management setting "auto matched camera profile" is likely to be the most accurate but you'll loose the "Pentax colours".

There is now also ART agriggio / ART / wiki / Home ? Bitbucket a fork ie. copy of Rawtherapee with a somewhat optimised/simplified set of tools and quite a few additional tools such as masking auto perspective correction, film grain etc. It's a different Rawtherapee and works much the same.
Thanks house, that's really helpful.

Where my issues lie is when I use pixelshift I may also be doing a shoot whereby I take shots without using pixelshift. If I take my DNG file off to RT for some motion correction goodness and return to LR (my main editor where I use LUTs and bought paid for Presets) then I am left with some DNG files from the shoot and the Tiff, and syncing becomes problematic or getting a consistent look to the image.

I have talked before about how some of my presets are even 'greyed out' when working on a Tiff, meaning they are not really working properly, you can apply them of course but when comparing the results to a DNG file with the same treatment they can vary quite a bit (but sometimes not much, it depends).

It's an issue not just for pixelshifted files either, but any editing where some serious destructive work needs done (skin retouching in Photoshop for example). It seems a lot of the professional industry users will not use LR at all, instead do all the changes in PS where they avoid this issue. For more amateur PP users like myself we either have to choose the rendering style/format first from what we are given in LR then visit PS for more advanced work and then export vs doing the advanced work first, be back in LR with a tiff and have our renderers not always playing ball.

I hope your RT steps make the Tiff file play a little nicer than what it gives default. I did also notice the other day that RT also offers lens correction which is helpful.
04-13-2020, 04:31 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I have talked before about how some of my presets are even 'greyed out' when working on a Tiff, meaning they are not really working properly, you can apply them of course but when comparing the results to a DNG file with the same treatment they can vary quite a bit (but sometimes not much, it depends).
It sounds like it's hard to work around the issue you are having with the software/workflow you are using. If LR is naive, which it probably is, you might be able to convert the tiff to dng with dng converter or similar and then copy meta data across from your original DNG using exiftool or similar. Thing is I very much doubt it's worth it. When you have a workflow it's often worth sticking to it even if it means you can't achieve certain things. Particularly if it's a paid gig where you need to avoid spending to much time.
04-13-2020, 05:10 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
It sounds like it's hard to work around the issue you are having with the software/workflow you are using. If LR is naive, which it probably is, you might be able to convert the tiff to dng with dng converter or similar and then copy meta data across from your original DNG using exiftool or similar. Thing is I very much doubt it's worth it. When you have a workflow it's often worth sticking to it even if it means you can't achieve certain things. Particularly if it's a paid gig where you need to avoid spending to much time.
Do you know of a program that can convert a tiff to DNG, perhaps even tricking the file/swapping containers makes the renderers behave better with it?
04-13-2020, 07:27 AM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Do you know of a program that can convert a tiff to DNG, perhaps even tricking the file/swapping containers makes the renderers behave better with it?
I'm a Linux user at home but I think Photoshop and possibly Camera Raw can open almost any file type and save it as DNG. It'll likely bake in lots of metadata that prevents the things you are after. It is also possible that some of the aspects of the styles *require* raw data for the algos to work.
04-13-2020, 08:08 AM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Do you know of a program that can convert a tiff to DNG, perhaps even tricking the file/swapping containers makes the renderers behave better with it?
Lightroom and the standalone DNG converter can do this, but the DNG is just a wrapper for the rendered TIFF image data (pixels). An out-of-camera DNG lacks rendered image data and just has voltages from the sensor. (This is the difference between RAW and image files.) The bottom line is that once a RAW file is processed and saved to JPEG, TIFF, or whatever, you can't change it back. If you make a TIFF, the characteristics of that file are what you have to work with.

Edit: The DNG Converter only works against RAW files.


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Last edited by stevebrot; 04-15-2020 at 09:47 PM.
04-13-2020, 08:15 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
That's true of most the camera's features. What percentage of photographs use f/1.4, f/22, 1 sec shutter speed, 1/18000 second shutter speed, bulb mode, flash, tungsten white balance, multi-exposure mode, 2-second delay, mirror-up, etc.

At one level, our cameras are a big bundle of rarely-used features. At another level, each rarely used feature is the best feature of the camera under particular conditions.
So true. Also, every user situation is different. For instance I happen to use M UP and 1 and more second delays in my work all the time, but I recognize that what I do is pretty niche.
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