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05-27-2020, 05:17 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
but then there's dust.
I am rather neurotic* about certain things dust is a particularly annoying thing I have to deal with, but glass cleaning** is something you simply cannot cut corners on. I used to live on a beachfront property and keeping those windows clean especially after a big storm hit was a neverending task. If I ever buy a house I'll look into getting that fluorine coating Pentax is using on their glass so nothing sticks to my windows...ever.


* I'm also a bit lazy, so I try to do things as efficiently and effectively as possible so I don't have to do them again.

**knife sharpening is another thing i'm very particular about.

05-27-2020, 05:54 AM   #32
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FWIW.... whe I got involved with the Australia Post stamp printing program years ago .... I was amazed that the hi res colour accurate proofs etc went through another complex process with key highly skilled prepress folk.... opened my eyes a bit.
05-27-2020, 07:57 AM   #33
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Have only just come across this thread so not read all the replies yet but... Bruce with respect there is really something wrong within your worfklow/system/ or other. So in an effort to throw some light on possible issues and highlight things that you really must consider and take seriously


Lightroom is probably the best simplest application to print through and much easier than Photoshop providing you do not have to undertake much specialised layer work. Even then there are some pros. that will still send there finished edits to print via Lightroom!

There may be other underlying issues for problems such as hardware or drivers or profiles

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I hate printing

I know enough about it to try and make printers keep their evil colour management out of your images (dreaded magenta or green tints ruining everything!). But there has to be a better to print than what LR/Windows 10 offers...

Let's just skip the monitor calibration stuff (take it as granted that its all fine and hunky dory), we have a few annoyances that are really consistent 'bugs' that have nothing to do with monitor calibration
I do not think you should take for granted that your monitor calibration is anything but another possible weak link in your workflow that needs checking against known standards and for drift over time. There is a hint in the thread later on that you may have an issue

QuoteQuote:
1) If I was using my printer for A4 work last time it was used (even just printing word documents or something), then even despite telling LR and Windows that the paper is now A3 and all that other stuff (select correct photo-paper etc), hit Apply/OK, verify etc... it will still do one print run of the previous paper size despite given new parameters! Every. Single. Time. And it can be vice versa, if last time the printer was doing A3 work and now you have changed things to being A4, it will be a stuff up first go
On the second run, despite not touching a single setting it will print properly based on what you previously originally selected... :/
So the first image on any run is ruined, always, it's simply stuck in whatever mode it used previously and wants one more go on that despite what you tell it (windows) and LR... Waste of ink and photo-paper. A3+ is $6AUD a go... Totally unacceptable bug, and if it's not a bug then someone PLEASE enlighten me. It gets worse.
This is definitely abnormal for any printing application and is not IMHO either Windows or LR specific. It could be a printer driver issue or a caching issue (not purged after printing) but without knowing printer details and driver I would not like to say. Have you considered removing the driver rebooting Windows then reinstalling?
QuoteQuote:


2) In LR, bottom right of Print Module, you will find two tabs, 'Print' and 'Printer...'. If you click the 'Printer...' button it will launch the Windows Explorer printer window, you can then click 'Properties' and gain access to the following tabs;

-Quick Setup

-Main

-Page Setup

-Maintenance

All valid places to go to ensure the print is as you want it.

But have you ever noticed that upon changing the settings and then clicking 'OK' it doesn't just apply those changes and take you back to LR... No no no no nooooo.... applying those changes and hitting OK actually activates a print!!

I'm not blooming ready to print you $$*@!$!&!! I still have other LR settings I want to tweak or check!

I seriously don't even understand the point of the 'Print' button in LR's Print Module, must be a Mac thing because Windows decides to do Print stuff anyway without you actually clicking anything that says 'Print'...
Ideally your printer should be set up prior to going to the Print module. The correcty place to do this is in the menu FIle > Page setup. Once you are in the Print module it is expected that you will want to print using the settings you made in the Page Setup menu. You will either want to print immediately or check print settings then leave as is or change a setting and print immediately by pressing OK. Should you not wish to print at this time just press the cancel button no changes will be made to print driver
QuoteQuote:


3) Soft Proofing is a joke, Simulating Ink and Paper looks nothing like what it will actually be. I really see no point to soft proof mode at all.
This is certainly wrong and a strong indicator that your colour management isnt managing at all. This includes monitor profile and paper profile. Either hosed and you will get what I think you may be getting. First if your simulating ink and paper looks nothing like your paper base colour then you are off to a bad and incorrect start.


Two things at work here:
1. Monitor profile. If this is an accurate representation of how your monitor displays colours at a given time (and is actually enabled in Windows) then LR and PS will use this information to correct your screen display to enable a close match to your image data - as close as possible within gamut limitations of the monitor.

2. Simulating Ink and Paper can only work if you are using the correct profile for the paper and the same ink as the profile produced and that profile is a good profile


Without both of these correctly in place your cannot hope for a match print to screen. If the simulation does not change the paper white to the base colour of your paper with soft proof on, either warm or cold tones or anything in between then either your monitor profile or paper is hosed - or both.

Soft proofing is a strong and powerful feature of LR in particular and PS and will do what it promises on the tin.


QuoteQuote:
4) Print Adjustment (bottom of LR Print Module) (often necessary) has only Brightness and Contrast sliders, both of which when adjusted give no feedback at all! There is no reference at all! Example;

First run of the print with both Brightness and Contrast set to 0, "hmm... prints a little dark, could use some brightening."

Yes but how much? +5? 10? 20? 40? 80? With no reference it's a complete lottery!

More $$ down the drain because it's always the 2nd or 3rd try till you get a print that matches more closely your LR image under a favourable ambient light...
Print adjustment often necessary, is a good indicator of less than optimal monitor profile. That is one set too high or too low for editing environment you will compensate in editing by making prints either lighter or darker than you intend.
Solution 1. Make sure your monitor is calibrated at the correct luminance for your viewing / editing environment
Solution 2. Do not use this stupid feature it has no place in professional software and in its current incarnation is useless to most


QuoteQuote:
5) And lastly... I've noticed that I cannot use 'Print Preview' at all, it seems when ticking that box and using that feature causes any changes I made previously to print management (such as telling the Printer Colour Management to being 'None') causes it to be overridden, and now the 'lovely' magenta and green tints return to the image, completely ruining the print...
Not sure what you mean by using Print Preview - where and how are you switching it on and what version of LR?
Your lovely magenta and green tints are typical examples of double profiling (magenta), that is you are using both print driver and Lightroom profiles combined, and no profiling (green), that is you have switched off profiling in both print driver and LR


QuoteQuote:
So we have x1 dud copy from the start which seems unavoidable, a x2 dud copy because the image will be too dark or too bright (no wait to tell), maybe the next print you get lucky, or maybe it will be print x4 till you get something that matches what you see on your monitor with a monitor calibrated for the environment you are working in...

Niiice... great waste of money. By the time you hand the print to the client you'll be lucky to see any decent profit margin.

There HAS to be a better way to print than through LR... Does Photoshop do it better?

BB
Your too dark and too bright prints are a result of incorrect calibration. A correct calibration of luminosity is when a print matches the monitor (soft proofing on) and that assumes that you are actually illuminating the print correctly

Last edited by TonyW; 05-27-2020 at 08:04 AM.
05-27-2020, 12:37 PM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW Quote
Have only just come across this thread so not read all the replies yet but... Bruce with respect there is really something wrong within your worfklow/system/ or other. So in an effort to throw some light on possible issues and highlight things that you really must consider and take seriously


Lightroom is probably the best simplest application to print through and much easier than Photoshop providing you do not have to undertake much specialised layer work. Even then there are some pros. that will still send there finished edits to print via Lightroom!

There may be other underlying issues for problems such as hardware or drivers or profiles

I do not think you should take for granted that your monitor calibration is anything but another possible weak link in your workflow that needs checking against known standards and for drift over time. There is a hint in the thread later on that you may have an issue

This is definitely abnormal for any printing application and is not IMHO either Windows or LR specific. It could be a printer driver issue or a caching issue (not purged after printing) but without knowing printer details and driver I would not like to say. Have you considered removing the driver rebooting Windows then reinstalling?Ideally your printer should be set up prior to going to the Print module. The correcty place to do this is in the menu FIle > Page setup. Once you are in the Print module it is expected that you will want to print using the settings you made in the Page Setup menu. You will either want to print immediately or check print settings then leave as is or change a setting and print immediately by pressing OK. Should you not wish to print at this time just press the cancel button no changes will be made to print driverThis is certainly wrong and a strong indicator that your colour management isnt managing at all. This includes monitor profile and paper profile. Either hosed and you will get what I think you may be getting. First if your simulating ink and paper looks nothing like your paper base colour then you are off to a bad and incorrect start.


Two things at work here:
1. Monitor profile. If this is an accurate representation of how your monitor displays colours at a given time (and is actually enabled in Windows) then LR and PS will use this information to correct your screen display to enable a close match to your image data - as close as possible within gamut limitations of the monitor.

2. Simulating Ink and Paper can only work if you are using the correct profile for the paper and the same ink as the profile produced and that profile is a good profile


Without both of these correctly in place your cannot hope for a match print to screen. If the simulation does not change the paper white to the base colour of your paper with soft proof on, either warm or cold tones or anything in between then either your monitor profile or paper is hosed - or both.

Soft proofing is a strong and powerful feature of LR in particular and PS and will do what it promises on the tin.


Print adjustment often necessary, is a good indicator of less than optimal monitor profile. That is one set too high or too low for editing environment you will compensate in editing by making prints either lighter or darker than you intend.
Solution 1. Make sure your monitor is calibrated at the correct luminance for your viewing / editing environment
Solution 2. Do not use this stupid feature it has no place in professional software and in its current incarnation is useless to most


Not sure what you mean by using Print Preview - where and how are you switching it on and what version of LR?
Your lovely magenta and green tints are typical examples of double profiling (magenta), that is you are using both print driver and Lightroom profiles combined, and no profiling (green), that is you have switched off profiling in both print driver and LR


Your too dark and too bright prints are a result of incorrect calibration. A correct calibration of luminosity is when a print matches the monitor (soft proofing on) and that assumes that you are actually illuminating the print correctly
This is a great post. I can only add a couple of additional factors related to soft proofing and print evaluation...
  • Be aware that room lighting for one's workstation effects ability to compare and edit a soft proof. On a related note, always take LR's advice to create a new virtual copy for editing a soft proof.
  • Be aware that the light source for evaluating the print is incredibly important. Many inks exhibit something called metameric failure where the appearance will vary depending on the spectrum and intensity of the light used for viewing. It is my practice to do print evaluation under daylight conditions (skylight actually) because of severe shift to magenta under the incandescent lighting in my work room for the Canon inks used on one of my printers.


Steve

05-27-2020, 11:28 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW Quote
Have only just come across this thread so not read all the replies yet but... Bruce with respect there is really something wrong within your worfklow/system/ or other. So in an effort to throw some light on possible issues and highlight things that you really must consider and take seriously


Lightroom is probably the best simplest application to print through and much easier than Photoshop providing you do not have to undertake much specialised layer work. Even then there are some pros. that will still send there finished edits to print via Lightroom!

There may be other underlying issues for problems such as hardware or drivers or profiles

I do not think you should take for granted that your monitor calibration is anything but another possible weak link in your workflow that needs checking against known standards and for drift over time. There is a hint in the thread later on that you may have an issue

This is definitely abnormal for any printing application and is not IMHO either Windows or LR specific. It could be a printer driver issue or a caching issue (not purged after printing) but without knowing printer details and driver I would not like to say. Have you considered removing the driver rebooting Windows then reinstalling?Ideally your printer should be set up prior to going to the Print module. The correcty place to do this is in the menu FIle > Page setup. Once you are in the Print module it is expected that you will want to print using the settings you made in the Page Setup menu. You will either want to print immediately or check print settings then leave as is or change a setting and print immediately by pressing OK. Should you not wish to print at this time just press the cancel button no changes will be made to print driverThis is certainly wrong and a strong indicator that your colour management isnt managing at all. This includes monitor profile and paper profile. Either hosed and you will get what I think you may be getting. First if your simulating ink and paper looks nothing like your paper base colour then you are off to a bad and incorrect start.


Two things at work here:
1. Monitor profile. If this is an accurate representation of how your monitor displays colours at a given time (and is actually enabled in Windows) then LR and PS will use this information to correct your screen display to enable a close match to your image data - as close as possible within gamut limitations of the monitor.

2. Simulating Ink and Paper can only work if you are using the correct profile for the paper and the same ink as the profile produced and that profile is a good profile


Without both of these correctly in place your cannot hope for a match print to screen. If the simulation does not change the paper white to the base colour of your paper with soft proof on, either warm or cold tones or anything in between then either your monitor profile or paper is hosed - or both.

Soft proofing is a strong and powerful feature of LR in particular and PS and will do what it promises on the tin.


Print adjustment often necessary, is a good indicator of less than optimal monitor profile. That is one set too high or too low for editing environment you will compensate in editing by making prints either lighter or darker than you intend.
Solution 1. Make sure your monitor is calibrated at the correct luminance for your viewing / editing environment
Solution 2. Do not use this stupid feature it has no place in professional software and in its current incarnation is useless to most


Not sure what you mean by using Print Preview - where and how are you switching it on and what version of LR?
Your lovely magenta and green tints are typical examples of double profiling (magenta), that is you are using both print driver and Lightroom profiles combined, and no profiling (green), that is you have switched off profiling in both print driver and LR


Your too dark and too bright prints are a result of incorrect calibration. A correct calibration of luminosity is when a print matches the monitor (soft proofing on) and that assumes that you are actually illuminating the print correctly
Thanks TonyW, was waiting patiently for you to come

I have not read this yet (at all), but just wanted to say I have now had multiple sources tell me that issue #1 and issue #2 is not me, this is a bug that has never been rectified (and has nothing to do with workflow or colour calibration or print quality or anything like that, just bad design/bug). It has been brought to my attention that visiting 'Page Setup' at the bottom left of LR will allow you to change settings and hit 'OK' without a surprise print! Really, the way the 'Printer...' tab is working currently in LR, it just needs removed, it offers no benefit over 'Page Setup' and will not run a print unexpectedly.

The issue #1 seems Canon printer specific, some Canon owners report this happening on x model but not other models, but yeah, it's a 'thing'. Maybe unfair to call LR out as the culprit here, could be Canon's fault.

I will read your thread thoroughly, but right now I have been hit with many other opinions to say to ditch the LR for print and take the soft proof copy to PS for the print.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I will look and read it thoroughly when time and head space allows.
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