[BruceBanner]

I hate printing

I know enough about it to try and make printers keep their evil colour management out of your images (dreaded magenta or green tints ruining everything!). But there has to be a better to print than what LR/Windows 10 offers...

Let's just skip the monitor calibration stuff (take it as granted that its all fine and hunky dory), we have a few annoyances that are really consistent 'bugs' that have nothing to do with monitor calibration;

1) If I was using my printer for A4 work last time it was used (even just printing word documents or something), then even despite telling LR and Windows that the paper is now A3 and all that other stuff (select correct photo-paper etc), hit Apply/OK, verify etc... it will still do one print run of the previous paper size despite given new parameters! Every. Single. Time. And it can be vice versa, if last time the printer was doing A3 work and now you have changed things to being A4, it will be a stuff up first go
On the second run, despite not touching a single setting it will print properly based on what you previously originally selected... :/
So the first image on any run is ruined, always, it's simply stuck in whatever mode it used previously and wants one more go on that despite what you tell it (windows) and LR... Waste of ink and photo-paper. A3+ is $6AUD a go... Totally unacceptable bug, and if it's not a bug then someone PLEASE enlighten me. It gets worse.


2) In LR, bottom right of Print Module, you will find two tabs, 'Print' and 'Printer...'. If you click the 'Printer...' button it will launch the Windows Explorer printer window, you can then click 'Properties' and gain access to the following tabs;

-Quick Setup

-Main

-Page Setup

-Maintenance

All valid places to go to ensure the print is as you want it.

But have you ever noticed that upon changing the settings and then clicking 'OK' it doesn't just apply those changes and take you back to LR... No no no no nooooo.... applying those changes and hitting OK actually activates a print!!

I'm not blooming ready to print you $$*@!$!&!! I still have other LR settings I want to tweak or check!

I seriously don't even understand the point of the 'Print' button in LR's Print Module, must be a Mac thing because Windows decides to do Print stuff anyway without you actually clicking anything that says 'Print'...


3) Soft Proofing is a joke, Simulating Ink and Paper looks nothing like what it will actually be. I really see no point to soft proof mode at all.


4) Print Adjustment (bottom of LR Print Module) (often necessary) has only Brightness and Contrast sliders, both of which when adjusted give no feedback at all! There is no reference at all! Example;

First run of the print with both Brightness and Contrast set to 0, "hmm... prints a little dark, could use some brightening."

Yes but how much? +5? 10? 20? 40? 80? With no reference it's a complete lottery!

More $$ down the drain because it's always the 2nd or 3rd try till you get a print that matches more closely your LR image under a favourable ambient light...


5) And lastly... I've noticed that I cannot use 'Print Preview' at all, it seems when ticking that box and using that feature causes any changes I made previously to print management (such as telling the Printer Colour Management to being 'None') causes it to be overridden, and now the 'lovely' magenta and green tints return to the image, completely ruining the print...


So we have x1 dud copy from the start which seems unavoidable, a x2 dud copy because the image will be too dark or too bright (no wait to tell), maybe the next print you get lucky, or maybe it will be print x4 till you get something that matches what you see on your monitor with a monitor calibrated for the environment you are working in...

Niiice... great waste of money. By the time you hand the print to the client you'll be lucky to see any decent profit margin.

There HAS to be a better way to print than through LR... Does Photoshop do it better?


Thanks for listening, rant over.

BB

---

Last edited by BruceBanner; 05-26-2020 at 12:36 AM.

I hate printing

I know enough about it to try and make printers keep their evil colour management out of your images (dreaded magenta or green tints ruining everything!). But there has to be a better to print than what LR/Windows 10 offers...

Let's just skip the monitor calibration stuff (take it as granted that its all fine and hunky dory), we have a few annoyances that are really consistent 'bugs' that have nothing to do with monitor calibration;

1) If I was using my printer for A4 work last time it was used (even just printing word documents or something), then even despite telling LR and Windows that the paper is now A3 and all that other stuff (select correct photo-paper etc), hit Apply/OK, verify etc... it will still do one print run of the previous paper size despite given new parameters! Every. Single. Time. And it can be vice versa, if last time the printer was doing A3 work and now you have changed things to being A4, it will be a stuff up first go
On the second run, despite not touching a single setting it will print properly based on what you previously originally selected... :/
So the first image on any run is ruined, always, it's simply stuck in whatever mode it used previously and wants one more go on that despite what you tell it (windows) and LR... Waste of ink and photo-paper. A3+ is $6AUD a go... Totally unacceptable bug, and if it's not a bug then someone PLEASE enlighten me. It gets worse.


2) In LR, bottom right of Print Module, you will find two tabs, 'Print' and 'Printer...'. If you click the 'Printer...' button it will launch the Windows Explorer printer window, you can then click 'Properties' and gain access to the following tabs;

-Quick Setup

-Main

-Page Setup

-Maintenance

All valid places to go to ensure the print is as you want it.

But have you ever noticed that upon changing the settings and then clicking 'OK' it doesn't just apply those changes and take you back to LR... No no no no nooooo.... applying those changes and hitting OK actually activates a print!!

I'm not blooming ready to print you $$*@!$!&!! I still have other LR settings I want to tweak or check!

I seriously don't even understand the point of the 'Print' button in LR's Print Module, must be a Mac thing because Windows decides to do Print stuff anyway without you actually clicking anything that says 'Print'...


3) Soft Proofing is a joke, Simulating Ink and Paper looks nothing like what it will actually be. I really see no point to soft proof mode at all.


4) Print Adjustment (bottom of LR Print Module) (often necessary) has only Brightness and Contrast sliders, both of which when adjusted give no feedback at all! There is no reference at all! Example;

First run of the print with both Brightness and Contrast set to 0, "hmm... prints a little dark, could use some brightening."

Yes but how much? +5? 10? 20? 40? 80? With no reference it's a complete lottery!

More $$ down the drain because it's always the 2nd or 3rd try till you get a print that matches more closely your LR image under a favourable ambient light...


5) And lastly... I've noticed that I cannot use 'Print Preview' at all, it seems when ticking that box and using that feature causes any changes I made previously to print management (such as telling the Printer Colour Management to being 'None') causes it to be overridden, and now the 'lovely' magenta and green tints return to the image, completely ruining the print...


So we have x1 dud copy from the start which seems unavoidable, a x2 dud copy because the image will be too dark or too bright (no wait to tell), maybe the next print you get lucky, or maybe it will be print x4 till you get something that matches what you see on your monitor with a monitor calibrated for the environment you are working in...

Niiice... great waste of money. By the time you hand the print to the client you'll be lucky to see any decent profit margin.

There HAS to be a better way to print than through LR... Does Photoshop do it better?


Thanks for listening, rant over.

BB

Most of the time I get good results with the software that comes with the printer. I never use the settings from either Windows or Photoshop (delivers terrible prints!). Most of the time I noticed that programs just mess around with the settings of the printer, because they are not dedicated printersoftware, it is a bit like they do not know what they are doing... And then there is ofcourse the quality of the ink used.

[BruceBanner]

Most of the time I get good results with the software that comes with the printer. I never use the settings from either Windows or Photoshop (delivers terrible prints!). Most of the time I noticed that programs just mess around with the settings of the printer, because they are not dedicated printersoftware, it is a bit like they do not know what they are doing... And then there is ofcourse the quality of the ink used.

I'm at the point of settling with exporting the images from LR to SD card as Jpg (thus sRGB only) and then transferring onto a SD card, and then inserting that into the printer and printing! Except my printer can't accept external media at all...

[dubi]

Hi

You didn't mention which printer you are using.

In LR print module on left side is tab "Page Setup", it opens dialog box in which you choose all your settings, paper size, type of paper, color management, bordered or borderless, all that stuff.


Hope this helps.

[BarryE]

Personally, I find that soft proofing with a printer's profile for a particular paper from Photoshop is accurate.

# I started by creating a test print using multiple paint swatches from a DIY store. I used hues that represented the colour palette I needed, eg portrait, primaries, landscape etc.
#Assembled them on an A4 sheet and photographed them at 5500K etc.
#Did a hardware calibration of my monitor using a colorimeter. When I say hardware, I mean hardware calibration that actually adjusts the monitor's internal hardware and not just a software emulation using a colorimeter.
#Made sure my monitor (color space is in Adobe 1998) matches the colour swatches, which involves viewing angles, 5500K light and *importantly* ensuring not coloured light was reflecting off the swatches. **This is now a fixed viewing arrangement. It does not differ when I make comparisons**
Now I know all's well for printing proof stage.
#Soft proof with the printer and the paper's profile. This is where there *will* be some variation that need to be explored. Assuming printer can handle Adobe 1998, then rendering intents should not be relevant, otherwise the workflow needs to by adjusted from the start to use sRGB. Personally, I've found the black point and paper white settings to be dependent on the paper used. When a paper has been decided on I keep the most accurate of these two settings and use it each time, for that paper.

This approach has worked accurately for me.

[StiffLegged]

Reading the manual more thoroughly often helps. Also checking YouTube for people who actually know what they’re doing and successfully print big prints from LR or PS. I’ll post some links after I’ve checked my viewing history.

Edit:here ya go, Simon Baxter is pretty thorough:–

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

Nigel Danson gives some more long-winded overviews for printing from Lightroom, but he sells his prints too:–

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

[Alex645]

Most of the time I get good results with the software that comes with the printer. I never use the settings from either Windows or Photoshop (delivers terrible prints!).

+1 @AfterPentax. I use Macs, but unless you really want to spend a ton of time with specific color profiles, overall letting the "Printer Manages Color" is the most consistent for color balance on Epson printers. The only exception I've found is with DNP dye sublimation printers where using the "Photoshop Manages Color" gives better bit depth as long as you select the correct printer profile for Photoshop to manage.

I've also found through a lot of testing that for consistent results, I'm better off using Epson paper with Epson printers. If I had the time and patience to experiment and test and tweak, there are better papers and better results, but you've got to be game for a lot of tests....more tests than I could afford or had time for trial and error.

[BruceBanner]

Hi

You didn't mention which printer you are using.

In LR print module on left side is tab "Page Setup", it opens dialog box in which you choose all your settings, paper size, type of paper, color management, bordered or borderless, all that stuff.


Hope this helps.

My printer is a pretty budget entry level Canon printer, but capable of decent results and A3+ size (and I mean decent, like... once I have been through the merry go round ring outlined above, it's decent, to the point that the local camera store would struggle to better). Where my printer suffers is mono due to lack of grey inks etc. But this isn't a complaint of those issues, I understand why some printers are better than others, I am hating what seems to be a horrendous approach to printer... period. And if LR is involved it seems to be even worse!

And yes, the Page Setup in LR I believe does exactly the same thing, you get to tweak the settings and when hitting 'OK' it starts a print... but wait.. I'm just tweaking settings here, I didn't actually hit anything that says 'Print'!

And.. if for some reason it does behave itself, then the 'Printer...' is faulty in how it is implemented.

Personally, I find that soft proofing with a printer's profile for a particular paper from Photoshop is accurate.

# I started by creating a test print using multiple paint swatches from a DIY store. I used hues that represented the colour palette I needed, eg portrait, primaries, landscape etc.
#Assembled them on an A4 sheet and photographed them at 5500K etc.
#Did a hardware calibration of my monitor using a colorimeter. When I say hardware, I mean hardware calibration that actually adjusts the monitor's internal hardware and not just a software emulation using a colorimeter.
#Made sure my monitor (color space is in Adobe 1998) matches the colour swatches, which involves viewing angles, 5500K light and *importantly* ensuring not coloured light was reflecting off the swatches. **This is now a fixed viewing arrangement. It does not differ when I make comparisons**
Now I know all's well for printing proof stage.
#Soft proof with the printer and the paper's profile. This is where there *will* be some variation that need to be explored. Assuming printer can handle Adobe 1998, then rendering intents should not be relevant, otherwise the workflow needs to by adjusted from the start to use sRGB. Personally, I've found the black point and paper white settings to be dependent on the paper used. When a paper has been decided on I keep the most accurate of these two settings and use it each time, for that paper.

This approach has worked accurately for me.

So you're avoiding LR and using PS?

[3by2]

In my printer settings I have the option to display a preview before printing, setting. This is in the Epson printer properties not Lightroom. If I have forgotten to change something in LR, which I normally do, I see it before i send it to print

[BruceBanner]

+1 @AfterPentax. I use Macs, but unless you really want to spend a ton of time with specific color profiles, overall letting the "Printer Manages Color" is the most consistent for color balance on Epson printers. The only exception I've found is with DNP dye sublimation printers where using the "Photoshop Manages Color" gives better bit depth as long as you select the correct printer profile for Photoshop to manage.

I've also found through a lot of testing that for consistent results, I'm better off using Epson paper with Epson printers. If I had the time and patience to experiment and test and tweak, there are better papers and better results, but you've got to be game for a lot of tests....more tests than I could afford or had time for trial and error.

But the problem (as I understood it) is that when you print outside of your RAW editor of choice, it's gonna be a worse file? Especially so if exporting Jpg and then using that as the file from which to print from. So you use your RAW DNG file, edit to taste and print direct from that. I guess exporting as a Tiff and then using an external printing software to open and render that Tiff accurately could be an option? Thus far I have only done any printing within LR and the pain associated clearly defined above.

---------- Post added 05-26-20 at 07:27 PM ----------

In my printer settings I have the option to display a preview before printing, setting. This is in the Epson printer properties not Lightroom. If I have forgotten to change something in LR, which I normally do, I see it before i send it to print

I have that same kind of Windows/printer option to Print preview (because I'm not sure LR actually offers that specifically), but what it will do is undo the Colour Management of the printer settings that you will have applied in one of those other tabs. Perhaps you have never needed to do this, but it's been often suggested as one of the culprits for prints to having a magenta or green tint added to the image. If you were to click 'More Options' tab for example, you may see some option for Colour Management, and you should be able to turn it off ('None'). If I do that, but have Print Preview ticked, it undoes it lol.

Basically what I am saying is I get wildly different results from simply having that Print Preview box ticked or not, and I realised after trouble shooting that it was because it defaults the printer colour management back to being 'on' or 'auto' or whatever and not 'None' like I selected.

[BarryE]

So you're avoiding LR and using PS?

Yes. That's because a while back I used to work with color critical prints for interior designers (fussy lot ;-)). I would create images in Illustrator and Photoshop, so when I moved to selling prints and doing a bit of commercial work, I never bothered with LR. I have no idea if the LR code in this area is different from PS - I'd be surprised if it was as this would create extra work for Adobe engineers.

Expanding on the color swatch suggestion. When I was doing the interior design work Pantone colors were the standard. To buy a full, accurate swatch set is expensive and not necessary for normal photo work. However, DIY paint samples are free and cheap. Having these reference charts are useful to set up and test the initial photographing technique, room colours, viewing angles etc. I have a room which is painted a true matt neutral grey and even then I can see colours reflected off the walls. Any print/swatch etc., is massively influenced by the viewing light and angles - both the saturation and hues. I suspect many print concerns involve viewing problems.

[StiffLegged]

I think you need LR set up for the correct printing options before starting work on a print. Word remembers paper size and layout for individual documents, as does my DTP stuff, so perhaps LR or PS do too.

However, have a look at the video from Simon Baxter posted above; it’s one of the best explanations for the whole process I’ve seen.

[3by2]

I have that same kind of Windows/printer option to Print preview (because I'm not sure LR actually offers that specifically), but what it will do is undo the Colour Management of the printer settings that you will have applied in one of those other tabs. Perhaps you have never needed to do this, but it's been often suggested as one of the culprits for prints to having a magenta or green tint added to the image. If you were to click 'More Options' tab for example, you may see some option for Colour Management, and you should be able to turn it off ('None'). If I do that, but have Print Preview ticked, it undoes it lol.Basically what I am saying is I get wildly different results from simply having that Print Preview box ticked or not, and I realised after trouble shooting that it was because it defaults the printer colour management back to being 'on' or 'auto' or whatever and not 'None' like I selected.

I don't manage the profile for the printer in the Epson software but just in LR in the color managment tab, so that preview window is mostly used for checking that I haven't forgotten anything in the page setup in LR or in the print and layout setting in LR.

I don't print much and certainly not enough to justify print profiling but so long as I use the same settings (and paper) consistently and I admit that sometimes takes some head scratching and a memory test I can generally get reasonable results for my up to A4 needs.

+1 @AfterPentax. I use Macs, but unless you really want to spend a ton of time with specific color profiles, overall letting the "Printer Manages Color" is the most consistent for color balance on Epson printers. The only exception I've found is with DNP dye sublimation printers where using the "Photoshop Manages Color" gives better bit depth as long as you select the correct printer profile for Photoshop to manage.

I've also found through a lot of testing that for consistent results, I'm better off using Epson paper with Epson printers. If I had the time and patience to experiment and test and tweak, there are better papers and better results, but you've got to be game for a lot of tests....more tests than I could afford or had time for trial and error.

Alex and Bruce, I am using an Epson photoprinter. And it really does a good job. It even does printing from the SD-card of the camera very well, where I only can do some minor tweaks using the printer's touch interface. I am using Sihl paper, it is made in Germany. Works very well with my Epson printer.

[BruceBanner]

Reading the manual more thoroughly often helps. Also checking YouTube for people who actually know what they’re doing and successfully print big prints from LR or PS. I’ll post some links after I’ve checked my viewing history.

Edit:here ya go, Simon Baxter is pretty thorough:–


How and why I print my photographs - YouTube


Nigel Danson gives some more long-winded overviews for printing from Lightroom, but he sells his prints too:–

CAMERA to PRINT | A Simple Colour Management Tutorial - YouTube


PRINTING photos will IMPROVE your photography - YouTube

I watched that Simon Baxter one, that was superb and found very informative. I still have questions after watching him but it was still excellent. I'll watch the other two vids tomorrow, right now I need to head to bed.