[Class A]

Again this is a false dichotomy. So it takes longer to rotate a pencil then to find the keyboard and press a key? Good grief.

I'm in very good company with my view:

David Grover ("you know who I mean") writes in article about "...faster workflow with your Wacom tablet":

"You can actually flip the Wacom pen upside down to automatically choose the eraser, but I actually find it faster to simply hit ‘e’ on the keyboard to select that option and then ‘b’ to return to brush." (emphasis is mine)

It seems your response to him is a "Good grief." as well.

Note that you don't have to "find the keyboard". One's left hand is over the keyboard or a console already and such frequently used keys can be easily operated by muscle memory; no finding or looking for that matter required.

Paul Steuneberg (the Image Alchemist) confirms that is typical to frequently change between brushing and erasing. Like David, he uses keyboard shortcuts:

"When I create a Mask, I often switch between the Brush and Eraser before I am satisfied with the result. I almost always use the keyboard shortcuts for that, ‘b’ and ‘e’ respectively." (describing the simpler process possible with the previous brush selection system)

It does not really matter whether he does it with a tablet or a mouse; either way he is making the point that these keyboard shortcuts are important in his workflow. Note that under the new brush design system -- even the improved one -- he now cannot just use 'b' and 'e', but has to involve 'b', 'q', 's', and 'e', making sure to choose the right keys at the right time and avoid choosing the wrong order of selecting a layer vs selecting a brush type. Get your ordering wrong, and C1 will change the layer selection for you.

Under any measure, the new system -- even the improved one -- is worse in terms of user interaction (which is not a comment on the new layer capabilities and layer creation shortcuts, etc. which are all useful).

[Class A]

Graphics tablets are not a slow workaround - Just ask David (you know who I mean)

I never stated tablets are a slow workaround. I said flipping the pen around to be able to erase and go back to your previous brush type without having explicitly to select the brush type (via "B", "Q", "S", or one of the respective icons) again, is a slow workaround.

Regarding this particular question -- flipping the pen vs using keyboard shortcuts -- see David Grover's view on that in my previous post.

This comment makes no sense. You do not release the mouse to type?

Of course I have to release the mouse for typing.

You still need to grab the mouse.

The huge difference is that the mouse will still be there where I left it and I can simply place my hand on it and continue.

In contrast, the tablet pen will be lying on the tablet and I have to pick it up again, reestablishing my grip, before I can continue.
The alternative is to keep the pen in one's hand while typing which is unacceptable to any touch typist.
I guess having a pen holder might improve matters slightly but having to locate it for placing and grabbing the pen is inefficient, compared to simply moving one's hand to the mouse again.

The action is similar you are being a bit obtuse here.

The action is not similar at all. If you don't see the difference or don't mind the difference, you are welcome to your opinion, but there is an objective difference.

Again, this statement makes no sense. Are you not aware that brush feather and flow are as adjustable one pens as it is on mice?

Of course I'm aware of that.

Even basic tablets even support translating pen pressure into flow or feathering.
However, this never worked well enough for me to adopt using a pen and I doubt upgrading to a more expensive tablet would change matters.
I find it much easier to simply using multiple strokes with a mouse and a constant (slow) flow.

Where does this illusion about "one stroke" come from?

I offered that as a possible advantage for using pens. In theory, their pressure sensitivity could be argued to obviate the need to ever set the flow rate explicitly. By using exactly the right amount of pressure one could theoretically apply the right flow in one stroke, as opposed to having to build up the flow with multiple slow flow strokes. As I said, in practice this does not work for me but I offered that it may for others.

Again, all of this has very little to do with my criticism of C1's user interaction design. Again, by granting one more keyboard shortcut -- mapping to a function that selects the correct brush type depending on the currently active layer -- no one would have to give up anything about the new system but a number of people could start working as efficiently as they used to be able to. Also, they'd be able to free up two to three buttons on their consoles for more important functions. With the new system, these buttons are wasted on explicit brush selection functions.

[PDL]

-snip

Again, all of this has very little to do with my criticism of C1's user interaction design. Again, by granting one more keyboard shortcut -- mapping to a function that selects the correct brush type depending on the currently active layer -- no one would have to give up anything about the new system but a number of people could start working as efficiently as they used to be able to. Also, they'd be able to free up two to three buttons on their consoles for more important functions. With the new system, these buttons are wasted on explicit brush selection functions.

When you flip the pen around to the erase function to "brush type" does not change. When you flip the pen around to the drawing point - it is in the same layer and the same "brush type".

There - fixed that for you. No need to customize a thing - just get on with the job.

[Class A]

When you flip the pen around to the erase function to "brush type" does not change.

I never claimed anything to the contrary.

Quite the opposite, I specifically mentioned that tablet pens support the mode of working I'd like to see supported: Going back and forth between brushing and erasing without having to explicitly select one of three brush types again and again.

There are two problems with the pen-based solution:

1. Not everyone uses a tablet; for good reasons, many prefer to use a mouse.
2. Every intermediate erase operation requires one to flip around the pen twice. That's very inefficient, which is why the main C1 instructor David Grover recommended to use keyboard shortcuts even when working with a pen.

There - fixed that for you.

Sorry, you did not fix anything.

You are not able to fix this issue, only the C1 developers can do that, not considering that you apparently still haven't understood the real issue yet. Again, not everyone uses a tablet and even tablet users had a more efficient way of working with shortcuts with the previous brush selection design.

[edom31]

I do not know if $210 is a fair price for the 20+21... I missed the August sale when they had the 20 for $175... I did the trial and loved it.

Recently I settled for Luminar 4 but I am not so happy with it... slow, and too artificial for my taste.

[PDL]

I do not know if $210 is a fair price for the 20+21... I missed the August sale when they had the 20 for $175... I did the trial and loved it.

Recently I settled for Luminar 4 but I am not so happy with it... slow, and too artificial for my taste.

B&H price on v20 today. $179
Capture One Capture One Pro 20 (Download) 88200033 B&H Photo

The price will most likely go up in the near future.

[edom31]

B&H price on v20 today. $179Capture One Capture One Pro 20 (Download) 88200033 B&H PhotoThe price will most likely go up in the near future.

My man! Thank you... I knew posting was going to provide me some info...

PS - they throwing in a $25 B&H Giftcard...

[Raffwal]

B&H price on v20 today. $179.

I happened to come by that special price by myself, though it was actually $174.95. That includes the upgrade to C1 21 as was posted here. I was still thinking whether to buy it or not since I just bought an M1 Mac mini and did not want to use Rosetta 2 virtualization permanently. Then I saw that Apple Silicon native support is coming early next year as an update to the C1 21!

Capture One Twitter

[Class A]

The price will most likely go up in the near future.

For some days, the price was just $147 (30% off).

For sure the discounts will disappear after a while, but at the end of 2021, new discounts will become available.

Personally, I would not have upgraded to C1 21, even if they had fixed the brush interaction issue. There are just too few improvements and a ton of deficiencies remain. I never need "dehaze" and use a console so don't need "speed edits". The new brush adjustment options would be useful but are not enough to justify an upgrade on their own, for me.

[PDL]

For some days, the price was just $147 (30% off).

For sure the discounts will disappear after a while, but at the end of 2021, new discounts will become available.

Personally, I would not have upgraded to C1 21, even if they had fixed the brush interaction issue. There are just too few improvements and a ton of deficiencies remain. I never need "dehaze" and use a console so don't need "speed edits". The new brush adjustment options would be useful but are not enough to justify an upgrade on their own, for me.

There are pretty impressive enhancements to the speed behind the scenes. Catalogues load faster, keywords do not hang as long when moving them around etc. If the list of new "toys" is not long enough for you to knowingly upgrade to a better product, then you have other issues.

Buy the way, my suggestion was about price only for someone to get into Capture One. There will be variations in price as we go down the road.

[iheiramo]

There are pretty impressive enhancements to the speed behind the scenes. Catalogues load faster, keywords do not hang as long when moving them around etc. If the list of new "toys" is not long enough for you to knowingly upgrade to a better product, then you have other issues.

I think for non-pro users the tactic to upgrade every other version is sound plan to reduce costs. If one wants every version, it makes more sence to go to subscription model than buy releases.

[iheiramo]

21 Now available

[iheiramo]

Few words now after some 70 shots edited with C1 v21. The new features for Pentax shooters are those main topics of previews; Speed edit and dehaze. I don't think these are must have features for v20 users. For me, upgrading from v12, the thing in upgrade seems to be the RAW support for K1ii PEF files which are sligthly better than K1ii DNG files. This was huge IQ upgrade to high ISO shots. The rest are usability upgrades. Nice to have, but nothing to die for.

Dehaze slider seems to be hidden somewhere at the moment, so I didn't test it yet. Can't say about it yet. I guess one needst to turn it on from somewhere or something. Unless they have forgotten it...

Speed edit feels handy. Old short cuts still work. Speed edits activates when you keep key pressed down. Using speed edit feels natural. I think it will be real handy once you get used to it. But I need to consider well the way I like to do my edits, so I can customize keyboead to fit my taste. There are a lot of commands to be reassigned to take full advantage from speed edit. Today I used partly speed edits and partly old way which was not optimal. I need to get everything I need under reasonable set of keys.

I've been skipping every other version, so this year it was time to upgrade and I'm happy for what I got for my money. Thought in retrospect I probably should've gone for upgrade right after the K1ii PEF support was released, but I didn't notice when it happened. Anyway I'm good for next two years.

[fuzzyphotos]

The dehaze slider is in the list of tools, right click in a tool bar and select add tool, it's in the list. I don't see any reason to upgrade right now but it's too late for me. I took advantage of the 22% off offer a month ago.

Hopefully I'll find something worth the money. You can always do a 30 day free trial to see if it works for you. I did see somewhere that there would be another major improvement to 21 later, hopefully a free improvement.

Tim

[PDL]

I think for non-pro users the tactic to upgrade every other version is sound plan to reduce costs. If one wants every version, it makes more sence to go to subscription model than buy releases.

The question I answered was about the initial price - not an upgrade.