[Lord Lucan]

Bill Gates was publicly praising Macintosh in 1984, but had been trying to copy it since 1983 (Microsoft had access to the Lisa and Macintosh prototypes). He was initially limited by the lack of good graphics support on PCs.

The idea of a graphical interface had been around since Gates was still in shorts. It was invented in the 1960's by Douglas Engelbart working for the Stanford Research Institute and was first taken up by Xerox in the 1970s, who could have become a leading computer company had they pursued the idea. Instead, Apple copied it and their Macintosh Lisa of early 1983 was the first personal computer on the market to feature a GUI. Other companies followed : later in 1983 Visicorp released a GUI called VisiOn running on DOS, and then Digital Reasearch released GEM in early 1985.

It was an early demonstration of VisiOn in a 1982 trade show that gave Gates the idea of Microsoft writing their own GUI. Until he saw VisiOn he had not believed the PC at the time had the power for a GUI. That version was Windows 1.0, released in November 1985, a little late to the GUI party.

Gates later made a painful joke that he broke into a house to steal a TV (ie copy the GUI idea from Xerox) but found it had already been stolen (ie by Jobs for Apple). The issue between MS and Apple was over details of GUI implementation, not the basic idea, which neither owned.

[boriscleto]

The idea of a graphical interface had been around since Gates was still in shorts. It was invented in the 1960's by Douglas Engelbart working for the Stanford Research Institute and was first taken up by Xerox in the 1970s, who could have become a leading computer company had they pursued the idea. Instead, Apple copied it and their Macintosh Lisa of early 1983 was the first personal computer on the market to feature a GUI. Other companies followed : later in 1983 Visicorp released a GUI called VisiOn running on DOS, and then Digital Reasearch released GEM in early 1985.

It was an early demonstration of VisiOn in a 1982 trade show that gave Gates the idea of Microsoft writing their own GUI. Until he saw VisiOn he had not believed the PC at the time had the power for a GUI. That version was Windows 1.0, released in November 1985, a little late to the GUI party.

Gates later made a painful joke that he broke into a house to steal a TV (ie copy the GUI idea from Xerox) but found it had already been stolen (ie by Jobs for Apple). The issue between MS and Apple was over details of GUI implementation, not the basic idea, which neither owned.

Yes, Steve Jobs was finally talked into going to Xerox PARC in 1979, after Xerox was allowed to buy Apple stock before the IPO. There he was show the Smalltalk development environment on the Alto and the stories say he was fascinated by the GUI. But both the Lisa and Macintosh projects were already underway...And Xerox released the Star workstation (officially named Xerox 8010 Information System) in 1981...at a price of $16,595 (that was just the cost of the workstation, an office would need 2 or 3, and a file server and printers, so $50,000 to $100,000)...

Both the Macintosh and Lisa projects were underway before the 1979 visit. Documents in The Book of Macintosh (a collection of essays, technical specs, and brainstorms written by Jef Raskin on and others) dating from the fall of 1979-- months before the PARC visit-- show that the Macintosh was going to feature user-friendly interfaces; a screen that could handle multiple fonts (that is, bitmapped screens); graphics capabilities; and a graphical input device.

The Lisa was also moving toward a bitmapped screen, under pressure from Raskin and Lisa's graphics engineer, Bill Atkinson. Atkinson argued that "if you're going to do mixed text and graphics together, you have got to use a white background," rather than a character generator screen. "The [hardware] engineers screamed bloody murder," he later recalled, but eventually the Lisa adopted a bitmapped screen. Jef Raskin likewise urged Lisa project manager Ken Rothmuller to use a bitmapped screen, and demonstrated the virtues of such a system by showing off a Macintosh prototype.

Raskin thought the graphical input device would be a light pen, and his interface ideas were menu driven. The Canon Cat is closer to what he wanted the Macintosh to be, but it was a text based system with no graphics. The Lisa also originally had a menu driven interface.

The Xerox PARC Visit

So much history that really can't be explored in a thread derail...

The first person history of the first demonstration of Macintosh to Bill Gates in 1981...

Folklore.org: Shut Up!

The 'neighbor named Xerox' story...

Folklore.org: A Rich Neighbor Named Xerox

Rectangles with rounded corners...

Folklore.org: Round Rects Are Everywhere!

Folklore.org: On Xerox, Apple and Progress

[RGlasel]

Digital Reasearch released GEM in early 1985.

I had a quick look, I seem to have lost the desktop publishing program I had that needed to run in the GEM desktop environment. Back then there was a graphical (sort of) shell for MS-DOS 4.0+ and even after Windows 3.1 came out, Norton published their Desktop to run on top of Windows (added some useful features, but turned an already slow and flaky OS into a real dog).

Xerox released the Star workstation (officially named Xerox 8010 Information System) in 1981...at a price of $16,595 (that was just the cost of the workstation, an office would need 2 or 3, and a file server and printers, so $50,000 to $100,000)...

My alma mater had two Xerox laser printers running in the Computer Resources Building in 1981, us undergraduates were told they cost $250,000 each, so your estimate might be low. The UofA also purchased a few Lisa's when they came out; at the time the consensus seemed to be that it was pretty, but too expensive for the mainstream and too feeble for the few end users who could really use a GUI.

Going strictly on memory here, but it seems to me that until truly useful software, that was significantly better than its textual UI competitors, came out, GUI OS's were good for generating publicity but not sales. Desktop publishing (with Adobe's font technology) spurred the Mac and word processing for two finger typists (MS Word) spurred Windows.

[UncleVanya]

I had a quick look, I seem to have lost the desktop publishing program I had that needed to run in the GEM desktop environment. Back then there was a graphical (sort of) shell for MS-DOS 4.0+ and even after Windows 3.1 came out, Norton published their Desktop to run on top of Windows (added some useful features, but turned an already slow and flaky OS into a real dog).
My alma mater had two Xerox laser printers running in the Computer Resources Building in 1981, us undergraduates were told they cost $250,000 each, so your estimate might be low. The UofA also purchased a few Lisa's when they came out; at the time the consensus seemed to be that it was pretty, but too expensive for the mainstream and too feeble for the few end users who could really use a GUI.

Going strictly on memory here, but it seems to me that until truly useful software, that was significantly better than its textual UI competitors, came out, GUI OS's were good for generating publicity but not sales. Desktop publishing (with Adobe's font technology) spurred the Mac and word processing for two finger typists (MS Word) spurred Windows.

I made a living because I knew word perfect… before GUI’s.

[clackers]

Windows has always copied Mac to some extent. Gotta keep up with the modern or contemporary look which Apple is often the trendsetter.

IMHO, it hasn't been that way for years.

The current Mac OS is left behind, it's simply not touch aware the way Windows has been for some time with what was called the Metro interface.

Apple gave up on its own OS a long time ago. It chose to reskin BSD Unix. It did have the option of being different - it could've developed Jean-Louis Gassee's BeOS, but didn't.

And the hardware is Intel based now, just like PCs.

Having implemented and rolled out both Windows and Macs on large sites, IMHO the last time Apple products were better as a SOE was perhaps twenty years ago.

That's different from being a niche choice. Still plenty of justification there. But even in graphic design, video production and photography - what were Mac strongholds in the 1990s - there are PCs everywhere these days, too.

And as Pentaxians, we're all about niche choices, right?

[RGlasel]

IMHO the last time Apple products were better as a SOE was perhaps twenty years ago.

Standard Operating Equipment?
You do realize that your words are considered blasphemous in many circles I really think the MLICs (Massively Large IT Companies) would like us all to be working on dumbed down desktops that can't accomplish anything worthwhile without being connected to a cloud service. I've been there, done that, when you had to use a VT100 or a DecWriter to connect to a mainframe at 300 baud. It still amazes me that supposedly intelligent people can be convinced to live in a dumb terminal world when 10 year old PCs can accomplish so much more.

[clackers]

Standard Operating Equipment?
You do realize that your words are considered blasphemous in many circles

Yeah, I'm looking after sites where hundreds of laptops, desktops and tablets are purchased and deployed, and they have to be interoperable and centrally managed. In the covid lockdowns, suddenly Cisco Webex licences were bought by the bosses and needed to be rolled out, for example.

Secretly, those bosses of course love BYOD, that's an expense that gets taken on partially or entirely by the employee or customer.

---

Last edited by clackers; 06-20-2021 at 06:45 PM.

[slartibartfast01]

Anyone have any idea what this means?
"Windows 11 will be available through a free upgrade for eligible Windows 10 PCs and on new PCs beginning this holiday"
Christmas, Thanksgiving, anything else?

[BigMackCam]

Anyone have any idea what this means?
"Windows 11 will be available through a free upgrade for eligible Windows 10 PCs and on new PCs beginning this holiday"
Christmas, Thanksgiving, anything else?

I don't know, but according to the Q&A on Microsoft's Windows 11 pages:

If your existing Windows 10 PC is running the most current version of Windows 10 and meets the minimum hardware specifications it will be able to upgrade to Windows 11. The upgrade rollout plan is still being finalized, but for most devices already in use today, we expect it to be ready sometime in early 2022. Not all Windows 10 PCs that are eligible to upgrade to Windows 11 will be offered to upgrade at the same time. To see if your PC is eligible to upgrade, download and run the PC Health Check app. Once the upgrade rollout has started, you can check if it is ready for your device by going to Settings/Windows Updates.

[Wheatfield]

So it turns out Microsoft licensed parts of Windows from Apple.

Perhaps it was part of the Microsoft bailout of Apple in 1997. It's hard for people who have drunk deeply of the Apple juice to believe, but that company probably wouldn't exist were it not for Bill Gate's largesse.

[boriscleto]

M$ PC Health Check app says my 3 year old PC won't run Windows 11. Glad I just bought a M1 Mac Mini to replace it.

[BigMackCam]

M$ PC Health Check app says my 3 year old PC won't run Windows 11.

That's surprising, Ben What's the spec of your three year old PC?

Minimum system requirements for Windows 11 are pretty modest:

• 1 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor from AMD, Intel or Qualcomm (compatible processors listed at each link)
• 4GB RAM
• 64GB SSD or HDD
• HD 720p (1280×720) display with 9″ diagonal, 8-bits per color channel
• UEFI & Secure Boot capable firmware
• TPM 2.0 compatible motherboard
• DirectX 12 compatible graphics / WWDM 2.x
• Internet connection

Considering the above, is it possible your BIOS is merely set to legacy mode and/or secure boot is disabled? If so, switching to UEFI and secure boot settings would probably resolve the incompatibility.

Otherwise, perhaps it's a TPM issue. Most motherboards that recent should support a TPM module, but it's possible the PC manufacturer cheaped out and didn't install one as standard. If that's the case, it's easy to fit one, so long as you can gain access to the relevant pins on the motherboard. They only cost around $20 or less, and a few minutes of your time for installation...

Glad I just bought a M1 Mac Mini to replace it.

After just three years? [I aim for a minimum of five years use from any major tech purchase, and my previous laptop - which was used and abused literally every day - soldiered on for eight almost nine before I retired it fully (with RAM and HDD upgrades, a couple of repairs and an OS change along the way, admittedly)]

Apparently, Microsoft will continue to support Windows 10 with updates until October 2025, so those with PCs that can't run Windows 11 have plenty of time before they need to consider new hardware. Of course, they could continue to run Windows 10 after the official support period expires... or, switch over to one of the excellent, open-source, community-or-commercially-supported linux distributions (such as Ubuntu) which - despite a few quirks here and there - just keep getting better and better, along with the range and quality of open-source software.

It sounds like you'd already decided to buy into Apple's eco-system and macOS, though? If that works for you (and clearly it does for many), great - the M1's an amazing processor, no doubt about that.

-----

EDIT:

Out of curiosity, are your wifi and Bluetooth working simultaneously and reliably? I know macOS 11.2 was supposed to improve the RF-related Bluetooth issues that plagued MacBook and M1 Mac Mini units, but read that some users are still experiencing problems...

For other members considering a switch to Apple (specifically M1), be aware of repair considerations once warranty has expired, and the importance of choosing the right spec at time of purchase, as RAM and internal SSD size are fixed (RAM is part of the SoC package, while the SSD is soldered to the logic board). This article provides a useful summary. Further to that, it's worth understanding the criticality of the internal SSD and mandatory encryption in these systems, and why a complete failure of the component (unlikely, but certainly possible) could be rather problematic. Check out this article. TL;DR - if you're buying one of the current M1 machines, get the 16GB RAM version (to avoid or reduce the need for swapping to disk) with the largest internal SSD you can afford, plus the longest, most-comprehensive extended warranty available, as expansion after the fact is impractical and failure outside of warranty could be expensive (quite likely uneconomical) to repair.

Macs are fantastic machines and macOS is a great operating system, but - like every other hardware and OS choice out there - they have their own quirks. "Choose your poison", as the saying goes, and choose wisely

[boriscleto]

That's surprising, Ben What's the spec of your three year old PC?

Minimum system requirements for Windows 11 are pretty modest:

• 1 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor from AMD, Intel or Qualcomm (compatible processors listed at each link)
• 4GB RAM
• 64GB SSD or HDD
• HD 720p (1280×720) display with 9″ diagonal, 8-bits per color channel
• UEFI & Secure Boot capable firmware
• TPM 2.0 compatible motherboard
• DirectX 12 compatible graphics / WWDM 2.x
• Internet connection

Considering the above, is it possible your BIOS is merely set to legacy mode and/or secure boot is disabled? If so, switching to UEFI and secure boot settings would probably resolve the incompatibility.

Otherwise, perhaps it's a TPM issue. Most motherboards that recent should support a TPM module, but it's possible the PC manufacturer cheaped out and didn't install one as standard. If that's the case, it's easy to fit one, so long as you can gain access to the relevant pins on the motherboard. They only cost around $20 or less, and a few minutes of your time for installation...



After just three years? [I aim for a minimum of five years use from any major tech purchase, and my previous laptop - which was used and abused literally every day - soldiered on for eight almost nine before I retired it fully (with RAM and HDD upgrades, a couple of repairs and an OS change along the way, admittedly)]

Apparently, Microsoft will continue to support Windows 10 with updates until October 2025, so those with PCs that can't run Windows 11 have plenty of time before they need to consider new hardware. Of course, they could continue to run Windows 10 after the official support period expires... or, switch over to one of the excellent, open-source, community-or-commercially-supported linux distributions (such as Ubuntu) which - despite a few quirks here and there - just keep getting better and better, along with the range and quality of open-source software.

It sounds like you'd already decided to buy into Apple's eco-system and macOS, though? If that works for you (and clearly it does for many), great - the M1's an amazing processor, no doubt about that.

-----

EDIT:

Out of curiosity, are your wifi and Bluetooth working simultaneously and reliably? I know macOS 11.2 was supposed to improve the RF-related Bluetooth issues that plagued MacBook and M1 Mac Mini units, but read that some users are still experiencing problems...

For other members considering a switch to Apple (specifically M1), be aware of repair considerations once warranty has expired, and the importance of choosing the right spec at time of purchase, as RAM and internal SSD size are fixed (RAM is part of the SoC package, while the SSD is soldered to the logic board). This article provides a useful summary. Further to that, it's worth understanding the criticality of the internal SSD and mandatory encryption in these systems, and why a complete failure of the component (unlikely, but certainly possible) could be rather problematic. Check out this article. TL;DR - if you're buying one of the current M1 machines, get the 16GB RAM version (to avoid or reduce the need for swapping to disk) with the largest internal SSD you can afford, plus the longest, most-comprehensive extended warranty available, as expansion after the fact is impractical and failure outside of warranty could be expensive (quite likely uneconomical) to repair.

Macs are fantastic machines and macOS is a great operating system, but - like every other hardware and OS choice out there - they have their own quirks. "Choose your poison", as the saying goes, and choose wisely

TPM and secure boot turned on in BIOS. I don’t know which version of TPM. It’s a low end HP Pavilion that I bought used last year, my 2009 Mac Mini just wasn’t able to keep up anymore. The PC has 8GB RAM and 1 TB hd, Core i5-7400. I upgraded the GPU to a Radeon RX550/560 with 4 GB, maybe that’s the problem.

The M1 is a huge upgrade in processing power though. With 8 cores it gets a Cinebench score of 7819 vs 3225 for the 4 core PC. I have WiFi and Bluetooth turned on but I don’t use WiFi on the Mini, all 3 of my desktops are connected to the router with Cat5…the 2009 Mini is still my Plex media server.

And just for fun I'll list my primary Macs going back to 1995, I won't bore everyone with my other Macs

1995 Quadra 605, replaced by a Umax 603 clone in '97 IIRC. Then a Beige G3. That lasted until OS X 10.3 forced me to buy a used Blue G3. That got a G4 processor upgrade and lasted until 10.5 forced me to buy a used Digital Audio dual processor G4 (2x 500 MHz). That got a video card upgrade and lasted a couple of years. Briefly replaced by a single processor Quicksilver G4 (933 MHz). Then the early 2009 Mini I used until last year...

Edit: I just read that the system requirements are an 8th generation Intel processor or newer...mine is 7th...

[Not a Number]

My motherboard has a header for a TPM 2.0 module but no one has them in stock. And prices vary from $99 to $18 USD.

[BigMackCam]

Edit: I just read that the system requirements are an 8th generation Intel processor or newer...mine is 7th...

Yep, that's the problem. Same with my low-end "beater" Dell 3180 laptop with Celeron N4200 (which isn't on the compatible list). No matter... I'll keep running Windows 10 on that until it falls apart, and if it's still going in October 2025, I may install Ubuntu

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft intentionally made Windows 11 incompatible with older CPUs in order to stimulate sales of new PCs. The i5-7400 is only four years old and still capable enough. There's no obvious practical reason why it shouldn't run a current generation operating system, IMHO. I smell a rat. Still, problem solved with your lovely new M1 Mac Mini. I think you're future-proofed for some time to come