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05-05-2022, 01:05 PM   #1
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"Low" End Printers for Quality Printing

My Epson 3880 "died" several years ago; and since then what little printing I have done has gone to a lab. Much as I would like to get the Epson P700 or P900, they are beyond my budget; so I am considering the following two printers:

Expression Photo HD XP-15000 Wide-format Printer

Canon PIXMA iP8720 | Document and Photo Printer

I do want to sell my prints and realize that the higher-priced Epson and Canon printers would be a better choice; but, as I said, cost is a factor. I would appreciate any feedback you might have, both positive and negative, as to the quality ang longevity of prints produced by these two printers.

05-05-2022, 01:36 PM   #2
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-- I used an Epson Clara ink jet printer (actually an all in one) and comparing to my college high end Epson printers the prints were the same (on matte paper). I always printed a full size cut as test to check/accept their prints.
-- Also the low end ink (not pigment) printer has fewer problems w/ clogging, and it may actually be better for glossy prints.

Actually the Expression Epson is what I would suggest. I have not used it, but it sounds like a larger version of the all in one I liked so much. In retrospect I should have bought it instead of the P-400, which is more problematic with clogging, and I like the Clara inks a little better (for matte also, which is surprising). Longevity wise framed/on the wall over 12 years they have not faded at all.

Also, the Epson allows using custom size print paper, anyway my older Clara ink one did, and the P-400 does, and hopefully the one you are considering does also.** It is a big deal for me, and I have heard Canon does not allow this (but this was in/about 2009, and may not be true now).
_____
** I checked it allows up to 13" x 44 ", so it should permit specifying any size up to this.

Last edited by dms; 05-05-2022 at 01:55 PM.
05-05-2022, 03:11 PM   #3
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i have Canon PIXMA iP8720 , it's a great printer , never have a issue .
05-05-2022, 03:12 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by cpk Quote
I do want to sell my prints and realize that the higher-priced Epson and Canon printers would be a better choice; but, as I said, cost is a factor. I would appreciate any feedback you might have, both positive and negative, as to the quality ang longevity of prints produced by these two printers.
So long as you and your customer are aware of the lessened permanence of the dye based inksets either would likely work. I will say if you're selling work serious coinage intended to be framed, using them is questionable. A number of sites like Red River will likely give you head to head comparisons.

05-05-2022, 03:40 PM   #5
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Thank you for your responses.

Some more background: I am currently selling my work on Etsy. There are two options. One is a downloaded jpeg which the customers prints, mats, and frames themselves. The second is an archival print which I sign and mat with archival materials so that customer need supply only the frame. If I have my own printer, I will print on Hahnemühle paper (I still have $200+ worth of their paper leftover from my 3880 days). If I go to my outside lab, the printing is done on Fuji paper (their printing on Hahnemühle paper is too expensive). Doing my own printing is more timely and probably cheaper, and I have better control and more choice of paper surfaces. The question becomes "will a print on one on the printers I have specified outlast the lab print?"
05-05-2022, 04:10 PM   #6
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Which of your chosen printers uses an archival inkset, and whose definition is being used? There's a lot of marketing going on. I'm wary of dye based inksets myself, but I'm not saying don't use them, just be aware and allow your customers the same benefit, aka CYA Recall what Ektacolor fading did to the big Yellow box.


Wilhelm Imaging Research
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/HW_Book_08_of_20_HiRes_v1c.pdf

ETA: "lab prints" are l over the board in terms of archival quality, so w/o specifics who knows (they make a number papers. I think they get a mention in the top link.

Last edited by JohnMc; 05-05-2022 at 04:15 PM.
05-05-2022, 04:53 PM - 1 Like   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by cpk Quote
but, as I said, cost is a factor.
If cost is the factor, then outsourcing to a photo lab is cheaper. Photo lab has advantages over owning a printer: no upfront costs to buy a printer, no cost of ink cartridges, no was of "cleaning" ink, print head-clogs problems. And with a lab, we can print any size without need to get another printer, and select different papers/finish (glossy, satin, mat), without need to built a paper stock for each paper type. It's when printing high quantities that owning a printer becomes more economical.

05-05-2022, 07:50 PM   #8
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If you rarely print, you will need to at least print a test page weekly w/the Epson pigment printer--based on my experience. With the Clara ink one I had, I did not print test pages ever, and probably it went weeks (months?) w/o use, and never gave me a problem.

I personally find printing too rewarding to not have a printer. So if I was in your situation I would get a printer that uses ink, not pigments and when selling say what I (you) use and have the option of a print done by a lab. So three options instead of your current two options.

There are light fading test done--likely Clara ink is done, although maybe not on your paper choice. Ditto the Canon. The lab would need to tell you which printer (ink) and paper they use, and then you may be able to do a comparison. I have forgotten the name of the person that used to do/publish this data but if you google it you should find the information. (Willhelm or something sounding like that.)**
_____
** My bad, JohnMc had provided a link.

Last edited by dms; 05-06-2022 at 09:17 AM.
05-06-2022, 11:44 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnMc Quote
ETA: "lab prints" are l over the board in terms of archival quality, so w/o specifics who knows (they make a number papers. I think they get a mention in the top link.
I have checked both with my lab and Fuji as to the archivability of the Fuji paper my lab is using. From Fuji: "Our paper is designed to match performance and image archivability comparable to Epson Ultrachrome inks specifications."

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If cost is the factor, then outsourcing to a photo lab is cheaper. Photo lab has advantages over owning a printer: no upfront costs to buy a printer, no cost of ink cartridges, no was of "cleaning" ink, print head-clogs problems. And with a lab, we can print any size without need to get another printer, and select different papers/finish (glossy, satin, mat), without need to built a paper stock for each paper type. It's when printing high quantities that owning a printer becomes more economical.
Your points are good ones. However, in my case my lab gives me only two choices of paper: Fuji Satin or Hahnemühle Matte at 2.5 times the price of the Satin. I would have a much wider choice of papers if I had my own printer. Also, my turnaround time and costs per print would be much less. As you point out, volume is the key.

QuoteOriginally posted by dms Quote
I personally find printing too rewarding to not have a printer.
I agree, and my 3880 served me well for about 8 years and a 2450 before that. From the responses here, however, I am thinking of waiting till I have sufficient printing volume to justify the cost of the higher end printers.
05-06-2022, 01:32 PM   #10
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Sadly haven't been that way since about '70 when I was taught how bad I (we) were chasing hard rubber discs; is Montreal not a big enough city now to have more than one lab? If you're used to the UC inkset on matte paper you best test/sample dye based on like papers before you buy, they are different. I'd look to see if you can find a lab to meet your paper needs until you can get the printer you want.
05-06-2022, 02:48 PM - 1 Like   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnMc Quote
Sadly haven't been that way since about '70 when I was taught how bad I (we) were chasing hard rubber discs; is Montreal not a big enough city now to have more than one lab? If you're used to the UC inkset on matte paper you best test/sample dye based on like papers before you buy, they are different. I'd look to see if you can find a lab to meet your paper needs until you can get the printer you want.
I am happy with the lab I have within its limitations. Of the two I checked out a few years ago, I chose this one because it would print Adobe RGB files; the other did only sRGB. I just completed another Google search and found more labs here in Montreal. Some print only sRGB files; these I will not consider. Of the two into which I will look further, one definitely prints Adobe RGB files; they both, however, appear to have the same limited paper stock and similar prices when compared to the lab I now use. Going out of town to another lab entails shipping costs and possibly currency conversion (for example, if I used Digital Silver Imaging). What I really want is my own printer.
05-06-2022, 08:32 PM   #12
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You're picky and that's good. I transitioned over to dyes from the UC set after my 9600 died terminal head death (I wasn't home for irregular and extended periods) I wasn't ever pleased with anything other than the lack of clogging. I do still have a dye printer, Canon, and it's worked w/o issue really, but side by side I just don't care as much for the output.
05-06-2022, 11:19 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by cpk Quote
However, in my case my lab gives me only two choices of paper: Fuji Satin or Hahnemühle Matte at 2.5 times the price of the Satin.
Then you could use another photo lab. I've used four photo labs (online) so far and I now know their strengths and weaknesses, I mostly use one lab (most cost effective) but I can also send print jobs to other labs if I want something difference, they both send prints via rapid shipping, I get delivered prints at my door, no need to own papers, inks cartridges, no printers, no color printer calibration and no preventive cleaning routines. I just upload my files, pay and receive the prints cut to size ready to frame and hang. I calculated I would need to print more than 200 prints 24" x 36" size, each year, to just match the cost of the photo lab(s). To save money versus lab, I should print more than 200 print a year. The past five years, I typically ordered 20 x prints 20x30" and 24x36" average a year, that's ten times less I'd need to break-even if I owned a printer, excluding the cash outlay for building stock of paper and inks.
05-07-2022, 07:31 AM - 2 Likes   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I calculated I would need to...
Question for you. Did you ever apply that same formula to your camera and lenses? Printing can be/is more than the simple mechanical reproduction of a negative or file, offering a whole different immediacy to the the process of arriving at a final print, and for some that is as important as for example, having multiple choice of bodies to shoot with. I mean, you could just send off the exposed memory card and eliminate the expense of your computer too, saving even more.



Clarence John Laughlin could have simply had some gallerist shoot Xxxchrome for slides of his work, but chose rather, along with his printer/assistant to make his own B&W slides because they were by far the more faithful reproduction. One way would have cost him little to nothing, the latter was the practice, the expression of his craft, and rather profitable in a different sense.
05-07-2022, 02:43 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnMc Quote
Question for you. Did you ever apply that same formula to your camera and lenses? Printing can be/is more than the simple mechanical reproduction of a negative or file, offering a whole different immediacy to the the process of arriving at a final print, and for some that is as important as for example, having multiple choice of bodies to shoot with. I mean, you could just send off the exposed memory card and eliminate the expense of your computer too, saving even more.
In digital, there is usually no big surprise between what we see on display and how the prints come out, at least once we have some experience, so I don't expect that printing with a digital inkjet printer make a creative difference on the prints. And I'm not looking for immediacy with prints, because large prints cost money (outsourced or not, ink typically cost $1/A4 area and paper also cost $1 per A4 area), for A1 that's $16 a print, A0 $32 a print for the basic costs, framing under glass cost even more money $100/unit at least, especially large format framing which require sturdy frames. Instead of printing immediately, I let one or two years pass, and then stand back in order to rank past images in terms of their "print" value, I make a first selection, then I review the selection again because I have a more or less a fixed yearly cost budget allocated to prints, each image compete against other to be elected to become a print. I only print the very best images (in my mind's eye / aesthetically pleasing or concept), and I can't know which image is the best until I have let enough time elapse to stand back and make a selection. Once I have decided on a list of images elected for prints, I start to post-process each file for printing, which includes color or b&w, aspect ratio, global adjustments, local adjustments, cloning out unwanted parts, up-sizing and sharpening, it's several hours of post processing per image elected to print (not immediate), a few days of post processing works before sending a batch of images to a print lab. I do this once per year. If I owned a large format inkjet printer, it would require to print a regular basis to avoid print head clogging and have to replace print heads (very costly), and it wouldn't really fit my process of selection, unless I would select and post-process a batch on images and then print one image every other week to keep the printer running, not a great option.

But, I also thought about photographing only certain times of the year and rent equipment at those times (events and seasons). For events, we know the dates, so it's possible to plan rental equipment. For landscape photography, only a couple months each year yield the best results due to combination of light, colors and weather, so having camera equipment the whole year around is not really necessary.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-07-2022 at 02:48 PM.
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