[biz-engineer]

Looking into Silkypix description of color to monochrome conversion options, as well as comparing color saturation set to zero, I don't know what's right compared to what a black & white film would have recorded.

Below is the extract from SPD documentation:

4.6.4.5. Monochrome
This is a color representation when an user selects “Monochrome” from “Color expression” drop list.
In Monochrome, a monochrome photograph is produced by calculating an average value of RGB values.
In Monochrome 2, a natural monochrome photograph, which is fitted to a sensitivity characteristic of a human eye, is produced.
Select a mode that comes close to your own expression, based on the scene.
Making photographs monochrome is performed at the final stage of producing colors.
Therefore, you can make various types of monochrome by adjusting white balance and color representation.


Tone curve aside, in your view, what would a black & white film be like? Monochrome , Monochrome 2, or desaturation?

[Jonathan Mac]

Simple desaturation of a colour image will always produce a very dull-looking image. At the very least it will need a contrast boost to make it look decent but genuine B&W films vary in the wavelengths that they absorb, so it depends on the film.

I don't think there's a right answer. Experiment and see what you like. Some images will look better with one film or colour to B&W conversion method, some will look better with another. It all depends on the light, subject and photographer's intent.

[pschlute]

When I do a b+w conversion I experiment with the presets in Photoshop which has about 17 choices. But the final image usually requires a bit of dodging/burning in addition.

One thing you can do in Silkypix is to use the Fine Colour Controller in addition to selecting one of the monochrome choices. Increasing the Green, Orange or Yellow colour brightness sliders will replicate the use of a coloured glass filter on the lens at the time of capture

[StiffLegged]

There’s no right answer; the response of different B&W film to the same scene varies with film brand and speed, with developer, with printing paper and with any filters the photographer might have used, not to mention printing techniques.

Adjust to your own taste would be my advice.

[photoptimist]

To do it "right" you would need to pick a specific black and white film and then adjust the red, green, and blue levels to match that film's color response. Orthochromatic B&W films are not sensitive to reds while panchromatic B&W films are.

There's also the subtle issue of white balance: do you want a monochrome image of the subject as it was lit or as it would have appeared on B&W film without any color-correcting filters for the type of light source?

[AggieDad]

One of the beauties of B&W is that the image is, by definition, an abstraction. With color removed, an accurate representation of the original subject matter ceases to exist. The image becomes notional and conceptual.

Since the image is now abstract, what you do with the tones and contrasts becomes totally your choice. Give the same image to five B&W enthusiasts, and you will get back five different interpretations of the scene.

Which method of conversion is correct? Which do you want to use? Photoshop has at least 11 different ways to convert a photo to B&W. Many other editing apps have multiple choices also. Some simply remove the color (desaturation) and some use a recipe that emphasizes certain color characteristics. No matter what editor and no matter what conversion method you use, you should make sure you color correct and adjust your image before conversion. This will give you an accurate starting point for your B&W image. And it is important to understand that the colors are still underlying the B&W image and are changing as you adjust your monochrome image. Also, work with the RAW file to take full advantage of all the information the camera has gathered.

What is the best way to finish the image? The choice is yours. For example. each of these three images has been finished in a completely different way. The train is what you might call a mid-contrast image. It has some lights and darks mixed in with plenty of midtowns. The two terns are finished in what is called high key with lots of light tones and white, while the Gateway Arch is a low-key image with mostly dark tones and shadows.


SANTA FE 951 – MID-CONTRAST FINISH



TWO TERNS STRUTTING – HIGH KEY FINISH



GATEWAY ARCH – LOW KEY FINISH

[UncleVanya]

The films of history has widely variable responses as noted. I use DXO photo lab with their filmpack add on. The differences in the film emulation in b&w may not be perfectly aligned with real wet development and printing but it is within the spirit of the original films as far as I can see based on my past use of many b&w films. Also as indicated earlier, b&w often was shot with color filters to change the overall look. I myself shot with various yellow, green and even purple filters to alter the tonality of b&w images.

[robgski]

Don't forget that film photographers would also use colored filters in front of the lens. This would also affect the image. Depending on the subject and colors in a digital image, I often convert my color images to BW by using a colored filter setting.

[tuco]

I dunno what plugins are best for BW conversions. I will say one thing to avoid is the clarity adjustment tool found in graphics editors. IMHO, that is a sure way to make it NOT look like a real BW image. I shoot a lot of BW film so when I do digital color to BW conversion I use that experience express the image.

And film converted to a digital image does alter (to some degree) the nature of BW film and how it would print the old school way. Because once the image is a digital file, it is subject to the huge tweaking you can do to the contrast curve that you really can't with a BW print.

Some film brand examples:

Ilford Delta 100 (a tabular grain film):


Mamiya C3 by tuco, on Flickr

Ilford FP4+ ( a cubic grain film) plus warm tone:


Apple Peeler by tuco, on Flickr


Kodak T-Max 400:


Post Alley, Seattle by tuco, on Flickr

Rollei RPX 25:


Analog by tuco, on Flickr

[Alex645]

For B&W conversions, I use Nik's Silver EFX Pro. They have filters that emulate dozens of commonly used emulsions in terms of tonal rendering, contrast, grain, etc.
Nik Collection - 8 powerful plugins, endless possibilities

[kypfer]

Looking into Silkypix description of color to monochrome conversion options, as well as comparing color saturation set to zero, I don't know what's right compared to what a black & white film would have recorded.

With practice, B&W film will record what the photographer wants it to record, by the careful use of over or under exposure in conjunction with appropriate development to enhance the contrast levels, shadow and/or highlight detail etc. and colour filters to further enhance specific detail … clouds in a blue sky, for instance.
Choice of emulsion was a very valid concept in b&w film work, as was choice of developer, to an extent … and that was before all the potential darkroom jiggery-pokery that could be introduced with different grades of paper etc.
Different films had varying degrees of "enhance-ability", with some exhibiting an extended red sensitivity, for example, some with better grain structure than others when "pushed", others best when treated totally as "standard".
There's no "right or wrong", just what you or your customer likes best

[AggieDad]

...a real BW image ???

Are we to assume that when we create a B&W image with a digital camera that it is not real? Perhaps you meant "...a film BW image."

[biz-engineer]

Wow! I didn't expect so much feedback and various viewpoints.

To do it "right" you would need to pick a specific black and white film and then adjust the red, green, and blue levels to match that film's color response. Orthochromatic B&W films are not sensitive to reds while panchromatic B&W films are.There's also the subtle issue of white balance: do you want a monochrome image of the subject as it was lit or as it would have appeared on B&W film without any color-correcting filters for the type of light source?

> I'm considering what's the right b&w conversion baseline to start from before adjusting parameters: daylight light color temperature for the light source and camera white balance, typical panchromatic b&w film.

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL_and_HSV) gives some insight on Lightness parameters:

- I (Intensity, arithmetic average of R,G,B),

- V (Value in HSV, largest component of a color),
- L (Lightness in HSL, ),
- Y (Luma), Luma is the weighted average of gamma-corrected R, G, and B, based on their contribution to perceived lightness.

Based on those definitions, I guess that setting de-saturation to zero isn't close to a panchromatic film response because it would would deliver yield L (from HSL) or V (from HSV).
The "monochrome" of Silkypix is defined as the arithmetic average (Intensity, as in Wikipedia page) is close to panchromatic B&W film with flat spectral response, I suppose (not 100% sure)?
The "monochrome2" of Silkypix is defined as perceptual, so it might be some kind of weighted average such as Luma is described in Wikipedia, I would need to test it using a color chart to see how different colors convert into shades of grey.

---------- Post added 03-09-22 at 11:19 ----------

Some film brand examples

I can't explain why, but your b&w film pictures look really good!

---------- Post added 03-09-22 at 11:22 ----------

Don't forget that film photographers would also use colored filters in front of the lens. This would also affect the image. Depending on the subject and colors in a digital image, I often convert my color images to BW by using a colored filter setting.

Yes, correct. I can add color filters to emphasize some image element vs another, after the right r,g,b to b&w conversion starting point.

---------- Post added 03-09-22 at 11:26 ----------

One thing you can do in Silkypix is to use the Fine Colour Controller in addition to selecting one of the monochrome choices. Increasing the Green, Orange or Yellow colour brightness sliders will replicate the use of a coloured glass filter on the lens at the time of capture

Ah! yes. I know about the monochrome controller in SPD, but I forgot to also consider the default b&w conversion via the controller without any color filter applied. I need to compare the default b&w look from the controller to "monochrome" and "monochrome2".

[tuco]

Are we to assume that when we create a B&W image with a digital camera that it is not real? Perhaps you meant "...a film BW image."

Yes, thanks for the correction.

[tuco]

I can't explain why, but your b&w film pictures look really good!

Thanks.