trying RAW (silkypix trial) - no magic improvement compared to default DNGs

pimpim · 01-06-2023, 05:32 AM

Hi all,

I want to start printing at home in 2023, so decided to give RAW development a try instead of using SooCs. For example I work with files from my K70 with the 16-85 HD.
When loading my DNGs in Silkypix I notice that the default quality seems to work pretty well. I don't seem to be able to recover a lot of extra detail or colors by adapting highlights, shadows, demosaic, sharpness, etc.

Now the last time I worked with RAWs was on my Sigma DP cameras, where the RAW development in the (clunky) Sigma tool would magically pop out loads of detail and colors, and allow a size boost without loss of quality, I guess I was spoiled with the Foveon sensor (plus the Sigma SooC jpegs are not very good, so the difference is very large)

I guess an advantage is I can apply some color profiles to my liking better than when using JPGs. I might want to do some B/W work where the RAW will come in handy. But for the rest I am not sure how much RAW development I should expect to be doing.

Am I doing something wrong, or is Pentax doing something right with the original images

?

Regards ,Pim

Last edited by pimpim; 01-10-2023 at 09:19 AM.

jgnfld · 01-06-2023, 06:04 AM - **2 Likes**

Can't say I know what to say to help as you seem quite lost! Here goes...

I've been using SP since about version 4 or so (SP Lite) that came with a K50 years ago. Now using 11 Pro on KP or K-70 bodies. No cataloging functions, really, which is not critical to me w/ Phototeca installed, but myriad developing controls. I find it very useful for recovering details, highlighting various things improving contrast, sharpness, etc. plus more advanced stuff with partial correction, color toning, histogram manipulation, etc.

The manual is very complete, but more than a tad it is written in "Japanglish" and it took quite a while for me to find reading it very natural. My suggestion is to just go vertically down the various top level tools (which I display on the right which I think is default) doing one tool at a time in order. That'll take care of major stuff. You'll also find that inside major tools there are detailed subtools. Click on the icons at the top left of each top level tool to activate. For example, at the top level contrast tool you can choose your amount of contrast from about 5 or 6 levels, but inside the tool you find things like "black level", "white level", etc. which can dramatically affect an image for the better (or worse, of course, if applied clumsily). As another example, color at the top level is a large selection of development/film styles--even old-style, somewhat garish, 60s postcard-style prints (gag!). In the subtool you can further manipulate things like saturation which is important to me in my rather dark, foggy/wet subarctic environment NOT to get garish prints!

My most used tools--which are likely in large part a function of my local conditions--involve light manipulations including the HDR subtool, contrast manipulations very often including black level changes using that subtool, and mild sharpening. The partial correction tool also works well to bring out details in specific areas as most of my stuff is outdoors wildlife/landscape as often there are shaded areas with details I want to be seen (like when that silly eagle turns its stupid head just at the wrong moment putting some parts in shade to remember one example).

Of course standard editing functions are there too like crop, rotate, etc., like in any image processing programme. But that's obvious, I assume.

Here is an older but quite comprehensive review of SP8 which gets pretty deeply into finding and using all the tools and subtools available then...https://www.dearsusan.net/pictures-smooth-silk-silkypix-overview-south-east-asia/

**iheiramo** · 01-06-2023, 06:18 AM - **1 Like**

There's no magic trick available. You need to practice post processing and what can be done with it to get better results than jpg's from camera.

pschlute · 01-06-2023, 07:04 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by pimpim

Am I doing something wrong

Probably not, but learning how to get the best out of a raw file takes time to learn.

I suggest you link to a dropbox (or similar) where you have uploaded a raw file and the jpeg you created from it. Pick an example where you feel it is not living up to expectations. Then some of here who use Silkypix can have a go and give some advice.

kypfer · 01-06-2023, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by pimpim

Am I doing something wrong, or is Pentax doing something right with the original images

?

Unless you're really clumsy with your original exposures, the out-of-the-camera Pentax JPGs are usually quite acceptable, in "normal" circumstances.
It's only when I'm towards the extremes of shadow or highlight detail and/or weird colour casts from unusual ambient lighting that I find it necessary to "need" to post-process rather than just the usual crop, resize as required and touch up the levels or sharpening slightly.

If you're interested in the capabilities of SilkyPix you could do a lot worse than try out the Pentax Digital Camera Utility software, based on the SilkyPix engine, it's compatible with every Pentax DSLR since the *istD and regularly updated to account for anything new in "PentaxWorld".
The interface may be a little "different", the documentation a little cryptic, but the nett results are usually very acceptable

ChristianRock · 01-06-2023, 11:19 AM - **1 Like**

I'm confused. DNGs are RAW files.

texandrews · 01-06-2023, 11:29 AM - **4 Likes**

So, just a little story: When I first started shooting raw, with an Oly camera, I shot raw plus jpg, and I tried hard to get the raws to look like the jpg (Oly jpg's from around 2005 were very pleasing---but of course only 8 bit which constrained how much manipulation could be done in pp). I finally sort of succeeded---and then had an epiphany: Why was I trying so hard to make my images look like what some Japanese engineer thought looked good?

I only use jpg now with my phone, some timelapse assignments, or for ultimate speed. And after more than 15 years shooting raw, I'm still learning new things. Which is as it should be IMO.

**GUB** · 01-06-2023, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by pimpim

Am I doing something wrong, or is Pentax doing something right with the original images ?

Pentax does a heck of a lot right with their jpg algorithm. So much so it will take you some time to equal it.
Raw developing is most advantageous in situations like high contrast.
And as your experience increases you will adapt your camera settings to make an image more suitable for Raw developing. Like exposing for the sky detail and brightening the landscape maintaining that sky detail.

JohnMc · 01-06-2023, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by texandrews

Why was I trying so hard to make my images look like what some Japanese engineer thought looked good?

I've found that for many folks it's good to have that reference jpg so they can see what one outcome of the raw file they are beginning with is. It's kinda like having a separation guide/color checker/gray card reference to aim at and learn the controls. To the inexperienced, raw files can oft times be off-putting, defeating, until they have that a ha! moment and get off to the races.

That said, I will say that I never liked working with SP or DCU, not that they're not capable, just not my cuppa interface tea - meaning that the OP may want to try some of the other options out there to see if perhaps they fit better.

pimpim · 01-09-2023, 02:32 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions!

I find most of these packages to be overwhelming, be it paid or free.
Also tried Chasys Draw IES but that is almost too limited (it's also free and someone's personal effort so I'm not complaning).
Will try the Pentax DCU. I also have some Sony ZV-1 RAW files that will probably don't work there, but I'm ok focusing on the Pentax RAWs for a start.

I'm checking the Keith Cooper printing videos, it seems in the end it would anyway work best to use a few packages side by side for separate functionalities.

So far I don't have a good example to share, mostly pictures of my baby and toddler, but will keep it in mind to at some point share a picture with you to look at RAW development technique, many thanks!

kypfer · 01-09-2023, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by pimpim

Thanks for all the suggestions!
I find most of these packages to be overwhelming, be it paid or free.
Also tried Chasys Draw IES but that is almost too limited (it's also free and someone's personal effort so I'm not complaning).
Will try the Pentax DCU. I also have some Sony ZV-1 RAW files that will probably don't work there, but I'm ok focusing on the Pentax RAWs for a start.

If you're going to try DCU, check out https://pentaxofficial.com/3469/ and the follow-up links at the bottom of the page … there's a lot of useful stuff there

You're correct, DCU won't work with Sony files, only Pentax files straight from the camera.
The help file included with DCU (press the F1 key on a Windows computer) is quite comprehensive, but rather cryptic. Work through it carefully and you'll find the answers to most queries

pimpim · 01-10-2023, 05:15 AM

Oh it appears I need to find the CD for my K-70, and my USB CD drive

I was just planning on selling my K-70, good that I kept the box

gatorguy · 01-10-2023, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by pimpim

Oh it appears I need to find the CD for my K-70, and my USB CD drive

I was just planning on selling my K-70, good that I kept the box

Gosh, and I just bought another K-70 to replace the one I sold a couple of weeks ago. Regrets, we all have 'em.

Anyway, so you're selling your camera?

If doing post to get what you want there's a multitude of software options, some of which can include significantly increasing the image sizes without obvious loss of detail, not unlike what you remember of your Merrill. Noise? Not a problem either. Sharpness? Yup, you can address that too. And if you want an automated way of processing raw's and getting a particular look with no need to learn how everything works there's Luminar Neo.

Personally, I'm a fan of Topaz which does require at least a bit of practice for the best results but free options exist that include similar functions, and the processing software that shipped with your camera is a great place to begin.

pimpim · 01-10-2023, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by gatorguy

Gosh, and I just bought another K-70 to replace the one I sold a couple of weeks ago. Regrets, we all have 'em.

Anyway, so you're selling your camera?

I need to flow some funds for a second-hand K1 that arrives tomorrow

And I mated the K-70 with a 16-85, optically outstanding, but ergonomics of the combination leaves to be desired. I never use the flip K-70 screen, I have a Sony ZV-1 for all selfie-related activities

Every coin has two sides, and reading up on as I await arrival of my K1, I discovered the principle of shutter shock, well a 16-85 on a K-70 is such a lens-heavy beast that I also likely never encountered that issue

Quote:

If doing post to get what you want there's a multitude of software options, some of which can include significantly increasing the image sizes without obvious loss of detail, not unlike what you remember of your Merrill. Noise? Not a problem either. Sharpness? Yup, you can address that too. And if you want an automated way of processing raw's and getting a particular look with no need to learn how everything works there's Luminar Neo.

Might look at that, thanks. In my attempts so far, noise and sharpness are not as easily improved in CMOS RAW files as with my Foveon, but that stores 15MB of RAW data for a 1760x2640 file, so a ridiculous amount of information to work with.

Quote:

Personally, I'm a fan of Topaz which does require at least a bit of practice for the best results but free options exist that include similar functions, and the processing software that shipped with your camera is a great place to begin.

From the Keith Cooper channel I heard that Topaz' Sharpen and Gigapixel (and deNoise) tools can help a lot. And they can be combined with other workflows it seems. I like that these tools are doing one thing well.
I have worked a lot with AI and images for work related activities, which las left me a bit skeptical, but I guess as long as one doesn't turn all dials up to 11 it can work nicely and give natural results.

jgnfld · 01-10-2023, 07:38 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by pimpim

I need to flow some funds for a second-hand K1 that arrives tomorrow

And I mated the K-70 with a 16-85, optically outstanding, but ergonomics of the combination leaves to be desired. I never use the flip K-70 screen, I have a Sony ZV-1 for all selfie-related activities

Every coin has two sides, and reading up on as I await arrival of my K1, I discovered the principle of shutter shock, well a 16-85 on a K-70 is such a lens-heavy beast that I also likely never encountered that issue

...

I find my K70 a bit boxier to the hands than my KP--the ergonomics of which I absolutely love--but still fine. Re. flip mirror...its best uses aren't for selfies but rather for overhead and waist level to near to the ground shots. For example if you're taking pics of shrooms you'll learn to love the flip screen!

01-06-2023, 05:32 AM	#1
pimpim Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mainz Photos: Albums Posts: 253	trying RAW (silkypix trial) - no magic improvement compared to default DNGs Hi all, I want to start printing at home in 2023, so decided to give RAW development a try instead of using SooCs. For example I work with files from my K70 with the 16-85 HD. When loading my DNGs in Silkypix I notice that the default quality seems to work pretty well. I don't seem to be able to recover a lot of extra detail or colors by adapting highlights, shadows, demosaic, sharpness, etc. Now the last time I worked with RAWs was on my Sigma DP cameras, where the RAW development in the (clunky) Sigma tool would magically pop out loads of detail and colors, and allow a size boost without loss of quality, I guess I was spoiled with the Foveon sensor (plus the Sigma SooC jpegs are not very good, so the difference is very large) I guess an advantage is I can apply some color profiles to my liking better than when using JPGs. I might want to do some B/W work where the RAW will come in handy. But for the rest I am not sure how much RAW development I should expect to be doing. Am I doing something wrong, or is Pentax doing something right with the original images ? Regards ,Pim Last edited by pimpim; 01-10-2023 at 09:19 AM.

01-06-2023, 06:04 AM - 2 Likes	#2
jgnfld Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,787	Can't say I know what to say to help as you seem quite lost! Here goes... I've been using SP since about version 4 or so (SP Lite) that came with a K50 years ago. Now using 11 Pro on KP or K-70 bodies. No cataloging functions, really, which is not critical to me w/ Phototeca installed, but myriad developing controls. I find it very useful for recovering details, highlighting various things improving contrast, sharpness, etc. plus more advanced stuff with partial correction, color toning, histogram manipulation, etc. The manual is very complete, but more than a tad it is written in "Japanglish" and it took quite a while for me to find reading it very natural. My suggestion is to just go vertically down the various top level tools (which I display on the right which I think is default) doing one tool at a time in order. That'll take care of major stuff. You'll also find that inside major tools there are detailed subtools. Click on the icons at the top left of each top level tool to activate. For example, at the top level contrast tool you can choose your amount of contrast from about 5 or 6 levels, but inside the tool you find things like "black level", "white level", etc. which can dramatically affect an image for the better (or worse, of course, if applied clumsily). As another example, color at the top level is a large selection of development/film styles--even old-style, somewhat garish, 60s postcard-style prints (gag!). In the subtool you can further manipulate things like saturation which is important to me in my rather dark, foggy/wet subarctic environment NOT to get garish prints! My most used tools--which are likely in large part a function of my local conditions--involve light manipulations including the HDR subtool, contrast manipulations very often including black level changes using that subtool, and mild sharpening. The partial correction tool also works well to bring out details in specific areas as most of my stuff is outdoors wildlife/landscape as often there are shaded areas with details I want to be seen (like when that silly eagle turns its stupid head just at the wrong moment putting some parts in shade to remember one example). Of course standard editing functions are there too like crop, rotate, etc., like in any image processing programme. But that's obvious, I assume. Here is an older but quite comprehensive review of SP8 which gets pretty deeply into finding and using all the tools and subtools available then...https://www.dearsusan.net/pictures-smooth-silk-silkypix-overview-south-east-asia/ Last edited by jgnfld; 01-06-2023 at 06:30 AM.

01-06-2023, 09:00 AM	#5
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,588	Originally posted by pimpim Am I doing something wrong, or is Pentax doing something right with the original images ? Unless you're really clumsy with your original exposures, the out-of-the-camera Pentax JPGs are usually quite acceptable, in "normal" circumstances. It's only when I'm towards the extremes of shadow or highlight detail and/or weird colour casts from unusual ambient lighting that I find it necessary to "need" to post-process rather than just the usual crop, resize as required and touch up the levels or sharpening slightly. If you're interested in the capabilities of SilkyPix you could do a lot worse than try out the Pentax Digital Camera Utility software, based on the SilkyPix engine, it's compatible with every Pentax DSLR since the istD and regularly updated to account for anything new in "PentaxWorld". The interface may be a little "different", the documentation a little cryptic, but the nett results are usually very acceptable Last edited by kypfer; 01-06-2023 at 11:31 AM.*

01-10-2023, 06:53 AM	#14
pimpim Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mainz Photos: Albums Posts: 253 Original Poster	Originally posted by gatorguy Gosh, and I just bought another K-70 to replace the one I sold a couple of weeks ago. Regrets, we all have 'em. Anyway, so you're selling your camera? I need to flow some funds for a second-hand K1 that arrives tomorrow And I mated the K-70 with a 16-85, optically outstanding, but ergonomics of the combination leaves to be desired. I never use the flip K-70 screen, I have a Sony ZV-1 for all selfie-related activities Every coin has two sides, and reading up on as I await arrival of my K1, I discovered the principle of shutter shock, well a 16-85 on a K-70 is such a lens-heavy beast that I also likely never encountered that issue Quote: If doing post to get what you want there's a multitude of software options, some of which can include significantly increasing the image sizes without obvious loss of detail, not unlike what you remember of your Merrill. Noise? Not a problem either. Sharpness? Yup, you can address that too. And if you want an automated way of processing raw's and getting a particular look with no need to learn how everything works there's Luminar Neo. Might look at that, thanks. In my attempts so far, noise and sharpness are not as easily improved in CMOS RAW files as with my Foveon, but that stores 15MB of RAW data for a 1760x2640 file, so a ridiculous amount of information to work with. Quote: Personally, I'm a fan of Topaz which does require at least a bit of practice for the best results but free options exist that include similar functions, and the processing software that shipped with your camera is a great place to begin. From the Keith Cooper channel I heard that Topaz' Sharpen and Gigapixel (and deNoise) tools can help a lot. And they can be combined with other workflows it seems. I like that these tools are doing one thing well. I have worked a lot with AI and images for work related activities, which las left me a bit skeptical, but I guess as long as one doesn't turn all dials up to 11 it can work nicely and give natural results. Last edited by pimpim; 01-10-2023 at 09:18 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
K-1ii DNGs won't open in DxO Photolab	Oakland Rob	Pentax K-1 & K-1 II	25	08-23-2018 08:57 AM
any way to find patterns of focal length, ISO, AV, & TV across lots of DNGs?	sholtzma	Digital Processing, Software, and Printing	16	11-21-2015 03:04 PM
An analysis of Pentax AF compared to competitors and suggestions for improvement	bwDraco	Pentax DSLR Discussion	20	08-23-2015 03:07 PM
RaW + DNGs altered at import in LR	TJWest	Pentax K-30 & K-50	6	09-10-2012 01:16 AM
SilkyPix Dev Studio Pro v4 RC - free 30days trial	deejjjaaaa	Digital Processing, Software, and Printing	2	07-09-2009 03:45 PM

01-06-2023, 06:18 AM - 1 Like	#3
iheiramo Unoriginal Poster Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Espoo Photos: Albums Posts: 3,180	There's no magic trick available. You need to practice post processing and what can be done with it to get better results than jpg's from camera.

01-06-2023, 07:04 AM - 1 Like	#4
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,182	Originally posted by pimpim Am I doing something wrong Probably not, but learning how to get the best out of a raw file takes time to learn. I suggest you link to a dropbox (or similar) where you have uploaded a raw file and the jpeg you created from it. Pick an example where you feel it is not living up to expectations. Then some of here who use Silkypix can have a go and give some advice.

01-06-2023, 11:19 AM - 1 Like	#6
ChristianRock Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: People's Republic of America Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,910	I'm confused. DNGs are RAW files.

01-06-2023, 11:29 AM - 4 Likes	#7
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,390	So, just a little story: When I first started shooting raw, with an Oly camera, I shot raw plus jpg, and I tried hard to get the raws to look like the jpg (Oly jpg's from around 2005 were very pleasing---but of course only 8 bit which constrained how much manipulation could be done in pp). I finally sort of succeeded---and then had an epiphany: Why was I trying so hard to make my images look like what some Japanese engineer thought looked good? I only use jpg now with my phone, some timelapse assignments, or for ultimate speed. And after more than 15 years shooting raw, I'm still learning new things. Which is as it should be IMO.

01-06-2023, 12:45 PM	#8
GUB Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Wanganui Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,751	Originally posted by pimpim Am I doing something wrong, or is Pentax doing something right with the original images ? Pentax does a heck of a lot right with their jpg algorithm. So much so it will take you some time to equal it. Raw developing is most advantageous in situations like high contrast. And as your experience increases you will adapt your camera settings to make an image more suitable for Raw developing. Like exposing for the sky detail and brightening the landscape maintaining that sky detail.

01-06-2023, 02:17 PM	#9
JohnMc Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 653	Originally posted by texandrews Why was I trying so hard to make my images look like what some Japanese engineer thought looked good? I've found that for many folks it's good to have that reference jpg so they can see what one outcome of the raw file they are beginning with is. It's kinda like having a separation guide/color checker/gray card reference to aim at and learn the controls. To the inexperienced, raw files can oft times be off-putting, defeating, until they have that a ha! moment and get off to the races. That said, I will say that I never liked working with SP or DCU, not that they're not capable, just not my cuppa interface tea - meaning that the OP may want to try some of the other options out there to see if perhaps they fit better.

01-09-2023, 02:32 PM	#10
pimpim Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mainz Photos: Albums Posts: 253 Original Poster	Thanks for all the suggestions! I find most of these packages to be overwhelming, be it paid or free. Also tried Chasys Draw IES but that is almost too limited (it's also free and someone's personal effort so I'm not complaning). Will try the Pentax DCU. I also have some Sony ZV-1 RAW files that will probably don't work there, but I'm ok focusing on the Pentax RAWs for a start. I'm checking the Keith Cooper printing videos, it seems in the end it would anyway work best to use a few packages side by side for separate functionalities. So far I don't have a good example to share, mostly pictures of my baby and toddler, but will keep it in mind to at some point share a picture with you to look at RAW development technique, many thanks!

01-09-2023, 04:19 PM	#11
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,588	Originally posted by pimpim Thanks for all the suggestions! I find most of these packages to be overwhelming, be it paid or free. Also tried Chasys Draw IES but that is almost too limited (it's also free and someone's personal effort so I'm not complaning). Will try the Pentax DCU. I also have some Sony ZV-1 RAW files that will probably don't work there, but I'm ok focusing on the Pentax RAWs for a start. If you're going to try DCU, check out https://pentaxofficial.com/3469/ and the follow-up links at the bottom of the page … there's a lot of useful stuff there You're correct, DCU won't work with Sony files, only Pentax files straight from the camera. The help file included with DCU (press the F1 key on a Windows computer) is quite comprehensive, but rather cryptic. Work through it carefully and you'll find the answers to most queries

01-10-2023, 05:15 AM	#12
pimpim Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mainz Photos: Albums Posts: 253 Original Poster	Oh it appears I need to find the CD for my K-70, and my USB CD drive I was just planning on selling my K-70, good that I kept the box

01-10-2023, 05:33 AM	#13
gatorguy Moderator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Central Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,089	Originally posted by pimpim Oh it appears I need to find the CD for my K-70, and my USB CD drive I was just planning on selling my K-70, good that I kept the box Gosh, and I just bought another K-70 to replace the one I sold a couple of weeks ago. Regrets, we all have 'em. Anyway, so you're selling your camera? If doing post to get what you want there's a multitude of software options, some of which can include significantly increasing the image sizes without obvious loss of detail, not unlike what you remember of your Merrill. Noise? Not a problem either. Sharpness? Yup, you can address that too. And if you want an automated way of processing raw's and getting a particular look with no need to learn how everything works there's Luminar Neo. Personally, I'm a fan of Topaz which does require at least a bit of practice for the best results but free options exist that include similar functions, and the processing software that shipped with your camera is a great place to begin.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-10-2023, 07:38 AM - 1 Like	#15
jgnfld Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,787	Originally posted by pimpim I need to flow some funds for a second-hand K1 that arrives tomorrow And I mated the K-70 with a 16-85, optically outstanding, but ergonomics of the combination leaves to be desired. I never use the flip K-70 screen, I have a Sony ZV-1 for all selfie-related activities Every coin has two sides, and reading up on as I await arrival of my K1, I discovered the principle of shutter shock, well a 16-85 on a K-70 is such a lens-heavy beast that I also likely never encountered that issue ... I find my K70 a bit boxier to the hands than my KP--the ergonomics of which I absolutely love--but still fine. Re. flip mirror...its best uses aren't for selfies but rather for overhead and waist level to near to the ground shots. For example if you're taking pics of shrooms you'll learn to love the flip screen!