Color Calibration Frustration

drewdlephone · 02-03-2009, 10:19 AM

I'm wondering if someone with some background in color calibration can help me out. I recently purchased an Epson 4490 scanner to get my negatives into the computer. I'm scanning them in at 48bit color, 3200dpi, and storing them as TIFF files (they're huge). I've been using Lightroom and Photoshop to clean up dust marks and adjust white balance and sharpness, but otherwise I haven't touched the pictures. I just scanned in a roll of Ektar 100 and it looks beautiful.

Now here's the problem.

When I export these photos, I've tried DNG, TIFF, and JPEG as the format for publishing, using the SRGB color profile, and minimal compression. When I look at the pictures side by side with what I have in Lightroom, they're identical. However, as soon as I post them to the internet, they lose a lot of saturation, which is frustrating because Ektar looks so good. I can't see where I'm going wrong. The scanned TIFF files are using the SRGB color profile right out of the Epson software, so their respective gamuts should be compatible.

I've also calibrated my monitor with a Spyder2. I have the option of switching back to the default monitor settings, but then everything looks even worse. Can anyone tell me what's wrong, and how to fix it? I'd really like to share these photos in their original versions, because they look so good.

EDIT: Attached, a picture of The Empress, a Canadian Railway Hotel in Victoria, BC. Tell me if the greens in the foilage surrounding the sign are vibrant and nicely saturated, or slightly grey-ish, which is what I'm seeing. Taken on Ektar 100 with my SuperTak 28/3.5.

Attached Images

Last edited by drewdlephone; 02-03-2009 at 10:30 AM.

Jim Royal · 02-03-2009, 03:52 PM

Drew, your photo appears to have the slightly grayish tone in the greens that you described.

However, when I assign (that is assign, not convert) the Adobe RGB profile to the image in Photoshop, the colours look much better. This tells me that your image may still be in the Adobe RGB colour space (or some similar colour space) but that the assigned colour space is sRGB.

When you export your images, are you first converting them to sRGB before selecting Save for Web? This would be the appropriate workflow to ensure accurate colour.

Damn Brit · 02-03-2009, 06:49 PM

They look green to me Drew. Focus looks a bit soft as well, that might account for some of it.
I've noticed that different apps render pictures differently. I use an old version of Iphoto and Elements 6. If I open a shot in Iphoto, it generally looks a little flat but when I open it in Elements, it immediately looks more vibrant.
I'm afraid I don't know the technical reasons for it though.

drewdlephone · 02-03-2009, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Jim Royal

Drew, your photo appears to have the slightly grayish tone in the greens that you described.

However, when I assign (that is assign, not convert) the Adobe RGB profile to the image in Photoshop, the colours look much better. This tells me that your image may still be in the Adobe RGB colour space (or some similar colour space) but that the assigned colour space is sRGB.

When you export your images, are you first converting them to sRGB before selecting Save for Web? This would be the appropriate workflow to ensure accurate colour.

Thank you for teaching me something I didn't know. I didn't realize Photoshop had this converter in it.

However, it hasn't solved the problem. The "problem" per say has also changed in nature. When I converted another picture, of a cloudy beach, the colors were perfect. I think I understand what is going on. Despite being converted to SRGB properly, it seems the pictures' green tones (which if I recall correctly is where AdobeRGB has the largest gamut increase over SRGB) are muted, but everything else is coming out okay. This, despite conversion. The picture doesn't look bad, just not as I had envisioned it. And it's only an Internet thing; the converted pictures look great on my Mac.

Ugh. Even with film, I haven't escaped the digital era.

drewdlephone · 02-03-2009, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Damn Brit

They look green to me Drew. Focus looks a bit soft as well, that might account for some of it.
I've noticed that different apps render pictures differently. I use an old version of Iphoto and Elements 6. If I open a shot in Iphoto, it generally looks a little flat but when I open it in Elements, it immediately looks more vibrant.
I'm afraid I don't know the technical reasons for it though.

Yeah, I'm noticing in a lot of the pictures my SuperTak took the focus could have been better. I had a lot more difficulty focusing it properly (and seeing the focus aid) than I do with my 55/1.8. I'll just have to try and be more careful.

Redfish · 02-04-2009, 01:41 AM

Agreed. Colourspace is AdobeRGB, with its wide gamut, great for photoshop or the lab. Otherwise, it should be sRGB for use anywhere else. Epson tend to prefer AdobeRGB as an input and output space, I've noticed over the years.

Damn Brit · 02-04-2009, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by drewdlephone

Yeah, I'm noticing in a lot of the pictures my SuperTak took the focus could have been better. I had a lot more difficulty focusing it properly (and seeing the focus aid) than I do with my 55/1.8. I'll just have to try and be more careful.

What aperture did you use for that shot? Maybe you just needed a smaller one.

Jim Royal · 02-04-2009, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by drewdlephone

Thank you for teaching me something I didn't know. I didn't realize Photoshop had this converter in it.

However, it hasn't solved the problem. The "problem" per say has also changed in nature. When I converted another picture, of a cloudy beach, the colors were perfect. I think I understand what is going on. Despite being converted to SRGB properly, it seems the pictures' green tones (which if I recall correctly is where AdobeRGB has the largest gamut increase over SRGB) are muted, but everything else is coming out okay.

Drew, I brought your image into Photoshop, assigned the Adobe RGB profile, and then converted to sRGB. I then did Save for Web with no attached ICC profile. Is the image below what the photo is supposed to look like?

Actually it is both the green and red tones that become muted (or conversely oversaturated) when the colour space is set incorrectly. Compare the red in the Union Jack in your photo.

What colour space does your scanner work in?

Gooshin · 02-04-2009, 10:08 AM

dont use the attach picture function

give something like fliker a try, see if it makes a difference.

virgilr · 02-04-2009, 12:57 PM

I had a similar problem, specifically when exporting from Lightroom. I hadn't changed the color space options in the export dialog "window", and when viewing photos in web browsers or windows picture viewer, everything looked "flat" as drewdle has seen.

I changed the color space upon export in the Lightroom dialog to sRGB, letting it handle the color conversion, and everything popped again and looked much closer to what I was seeing Lightroom.

So, take a look at your export settings and let the software do the work for you, drewdle!

Jim Royal · 02-04-2009, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

dont use the attach picture function

give something like fliker a try, see if it makes a difference.

It would not make any difference except in the Flash-based slideshow, as Flash does not honor ICC profiles.

Gooshin · 02-04-2009, 03:19 PM

well i dont know

the picture in question looks extreamly compressed

the OP says hes not compressing it, so either something else is compressing, or the OP is doing something wrong.

because i have no problems what so ever getting my work from lightroom on the internet.

Jim Royal · 02-04-2009, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

the picture in question looks extreamly compressed

the OP says hes not compressing it, so either something else is compressing, or the OP is doing something wrong.

The issue is not compression, but colour space. The two issues are quite separate.

If you compare the original image with the version I posted, you'll see a definite difference in the colours. I made no adjustments to the image except for specifying a different colour space, and this is the problem with the original image.

joele · 02-04-2009, 10:08 PM

This may not be your problem BUT...

one thing I noticed (esp since I calibrated my screen) is I get a very different looking image (colour) if I just 'save as' in photoshop to JPEG than if I 'export for web' and use JPEG.. The later makes the colours look very different once viewed through IE or firefox... I think the profile is attached properly only if I use 'save as' not for 'web export' for some reason....

Ohh and attaching images here kills them for me too, as gooshin said, link from elsewhere..

drewdlephone · 02-07-2009, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Jim Royal

Drew, I brought your image into Photoshop, assigned the Adobe RGB profile, and then converted to sRGB. I then did Save for Web with no attached ICC profile. Is the image below what the photo is supposed to look like?

Actually it is both the green and red tones that become muted (or conversely oversaturated) when the colour space is set incorrectly. Compare the red in the Union Jack in your photo.

What colour space does your scanner work in?

THAT'S IT!

I'm going to try that EXACT sequence of events to see if I can get it to look right. I assume my scanner is working in AdobeRGB or PhotoProRGB, but it doesn't have the option to set it, even in "Professional" mode.

Gooshin: Thank you for noticing, but that is in fact how "soft" my new wide angle appears to be. I've been shooting it somewhere between 8 and 11 and seem to get this result seemingly at random. Some shots are fine, others are noticeably soft. I'm not quite sure what it is yet what's causing it, but it's not a problem with my 55 or 135 SMC Taks.

02-03-2009, 10:19 AM	#1
drewdlephone Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Nanaimo, BC Posts: 261	Color Calibration Frustration I'm wondering if someone with some background in color calibration can help me out. I recently purchased an Epson 4490 scanner to get my negatives into the computer. I'm scanning them in at 48bit color, 3200dpi, and storing them as TIFF files (they're huge). I've been using Lightroom and Photoshop to clean up dust marks and adjust white balance and sharpness, but otherwise I haven't touched the pictures. I just scanned in a roll of Ektar 100 and it looks beautiful. Now here's the problem. When I export these photos, I've tried DNG, TIFF, and JPEG as the format for publishing, using the SRGB color profile, and minimal compression. When I look at the pictures side by side with what I have in Lightroom, they're identical. However, as soon as I post them to the internet, they lose a lot of saturation, which is frustrating because Ektar looks so good. I can't see where I'm going wrong. The scanned TIFF files are using the SRGB color profile right out of the Epson software, so their respective gamuts should be compatible. I've also calibrated my monitor with a Spyder2. I have the option of switching back to the default monitor settings, but then everything looks even worse. Can anyone tell me what's wrong, and how to fix it? I'd really like to share these photos in their original versions, because they look so good. EDIT: Attached, a picture of The Empress, a Canadian Railway Hotel in Victoria, BC. Tell me if the greens in the foilage surrounding the sign are vibrant and nicely saturated, or slightly grey-ish, which is what I'm seeing. Taken on Ektar 100 with my SuperTak 28/3.5. Attached Images Last edited by drewdlephone; 02-03-2009 at 10:30 AM.

02-03-2009, 03:52 PM	#2
Jim Royal Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery Posts: 179	Drew, your photo appears to have the slightly grayish tone in the greens that you described. However, when I assign (that is assign, not convert) the Adobe RGB profile to the image in Photoshop, the colours look much better. This tells me that your image may still be in the Adobe RGB colour space (or some similar colour space) but that the assigned colour space is sRGB. When you export your images, are you first converting them to sRGB before selecting Save for Web? This would be the appropriate workflow to ensure accurate colour. Last edited by Jim Royal; 02-03-2009 at 07:55 PM.

02-04-2009, 08:12 AM	#8
Jim Royal Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery Posts: 179	Originally posted by drewdlephone Thank you for teaching me something I didn't know. I didn't realize Photoshop had this converter in it. However, it hasn't solved the problem. The "problem" per say has also changed in nature. When I converted another picture, of a cloudy beach, the colors were perfect. I think I understand what is going on. Despite being converted to SRGB properly, it seems the pictures' green tones (which if I recall correctly is where AdobeRGB has the largest gamut increase over SRGB) are muted, but everything else is coming out okay. Drew, I brought your image into Photoshop, assigned the Adobe RGB profile, and then converted to sRGB. I then did Save for Web with no attached ICC profile. Is the image below what the photo is supposed to look like? Actually it is both the green and red tones that become muted (or conversely oversaturated) when the colour space is set incorrectly. Compare the red in the Union Jack in your photo. What colour space does your scanner work in? Attached Images

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02-03-2009, 06:49 PM	#3
Damn Brit Guest	They look green to me Drew. Focus looks a bit soft as well, that might account for some of it. I've noticed that different apps render pictures differently. I use an old version of Iphoto and Elements 6. If I open a shot in Iphoto, it generally looks a little flat but when I open it in Elements, it immediately looks more vibrant. I'm afraid I don't know the technical reasons for it though.

02-03-2009, 08:07 PM	#4
drewdlephone Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Nanaimo, BC Posts: 261 Original Poster	Originally posted by Jim Royal Drew, your photo appears to have the slightly grayish tone in the greens that you described. However, when I assign (that is assign, not convert) the Adobe RGB profile to the image in Photoshop, the colours look much better. This tells me that your image may still be in the Adobe RGB colour space (or some similar colour space) but that the assigned colour space is sRGB. When you export your images, are you first converting them to sRGB before selecting Save for Web? This would be the appropriate workflow to ensure accurate colour. Thank you for teaching me something I didn't know. I didn't realize Photoshop had this converter in it. However, it hasn't solved the problem. The "problem" per say has also changed in nature. When I converted another picture, of a cloudy beach, the colors were perfect. I think I understand what is going on. Despite being converted to SRGB properly, it seems the pictures' green tones (which if I recall correctly is where AdobeRGB has the largest gamut increase over SRGB) are muted, but everything else is coming out okay. This, despite conversion. The picture doesn't look bad, just not as I had envisioned it. And it's only an Internet thing; the converted pictures look great on my Mac. Ugh. Even with film, I haven't escaped the digital era.

02-03-2009, 08:08 PM	#5
drewdlephone Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Nanaimo, BC Posts: 261 Original Poster	Originally posted by Damn Brit They look green to me Drew. Focus looks a bit soft as well, that might account for some of it. I've noticed that different apps render pictures differently. I use an old version of Iphoto and Elements 6. If I open a shot in Iphoto, it generally looks a little flat but when I open it in Elements, it immediately looks more vibrant. I'm afraid I don't know the technical reasons for it though. Yeah, I'm noticing in a lot of the pictures my SuperTak took the focus could have been better. I had a lot more difficulty focusing it properly (and seeing the focus aid) than I do with my 55/1.8. I'll just have to try and be more careful.

02-04-2009, 01:41 AM	#6
Redfish Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 33	Agreed. Colourspace is AdobeRGB, with its wide gamut, great for photoshop or the lab. Otherwise, it should be sRGB for use anywhere else. Epson tend to prefer AdobeRGB as an input and output space, I've noticed over the years.

02-04-2009, 02:30 AM	#7
Damn Brit Guest	Originally posted by drewdlephone Yeah, I'm noticing in a lot of the pictures my SuperTak took the focus could have been better. I had a lot more difficulty focusing it properly (and seeing the focus aid) than I do with my 55/1.8. I'll just have to try and be more careful. What aperture did you use for that shot? Maybe you just needed a smaller one.

02-04-2009, 10:08 AM	#9
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	dont use the attach picture function give something like fliker a try, see if it makes a difference.

02-04-2009, 12:57 PM	#10
virgilr Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lachine, Quebec, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 453	I had a similar problem, specifically when exporting from Lightroom. I hadn't changed the color space options in the export dialog "window", and when viewing photos in web browsers or windows picture viewer, everything looked "flat" as drewdle has seen. I changed the color space upon export in the Lightroom dialog to sRGB, letting it handle the color conversion, and everything popped again and looked much closer to what I was seeing Lightroom. So, take a look at your export settings and let the software do the work for you, drewdle!

02-04-2009, 03:12 PM	#11
Jim Royal Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery Posts: 179	Originally posted by Gooshin dont use the attach picture function give something like fliker a try, see if it makes a difference. It would not make any difference except in the Flash-based slideshow, as Flash does not honor ICC profiles.

02-04-2009, 03:19 PM	#12
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	well i dont know the picture in question looks extreamly compressed the OP says hes not compressing it, so either something else is compressing, or the OP is doing something wrong. because i have no problems what so ever getting my work from lightroom on the internet.

02-04-2009, 07:47 PM	#13
Jim Royal Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery Posts: 179	Originally posted by Gooshin the picture in question looks extreamly compressed the OP says hes not compressing it, so either something else is compressing, or the OP is doing something wrong. The issue is not compression, but colour space. The two issues are quite separate. If you compare the original image with the version I posted, you'll see a definite difference in the colours. I made no adjustments to the image except for specifying a different colour space, and this is the problem with the original image.

02-04-2009, 10:08 PM	#14
joele Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,308	This may not be your problem BUT... one thing I noticed (esp since I calibrated my screen) is I get a very different looking image (colour) if I just 'save as' in photoshop to JPEG than if I 'export for web' and use JPEG.. The later makes the colours look very different once viewed through IE or firefox... I think the profile is attached properly only if I use 'save as' not for 'web export' for some reason.... Ohh and attaching images here kills them for me too, as gooshin said, link from elsewhere..

02-07-2009, 01:05 AM	#15
drewdlephone Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Nanaimo, BC Posts: 261 Original Poster	Originally posted by Jim Royal Drew, I brought your image into Photoshop, assigned the Adobe RGB profile, and then converted to sRGB. I then did Save for Web with no attached ICC profile. Is the image below what the photo is supposed to look like? Actually it is both the green and red tones that become muted (or conversely oversaturated) when the colour space is set incorrectly. Compare the red in the Union Jack in your photo. What colour space does your scanner work in? THAT'S IT! I'm going to try that EXACT sequence of events to see if I can get it to look right. I assume my scanner is working in AdobeRGB or PhotoProRGB, but it doesn't have the option to set it, even in "Professional" mode. Gooshin: Thank you for noticing, but that is in fact how "soft" my new wide angle appears to be. I've been shooting it somewhere between 8 and 11 and seem to get this result seemingly at random. Some shots are fine, others are noticeably soft. I'm not quite sure what it is yet what's causing it, but it's not a problem with my 55 or 135 SMC Taks.