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02-26-2009, 10:20 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
Mark, once I see your name I immediately guess whether your post will be about how good DA40/2.8 is or about virtues of Abobe LR which completely lags behind those "hopeless" converters in demosaicing department.
??? I don't use LR and have never recommended it except as but one example of a program that supports the "modern" type of workflow. I have no opinion on its demosaicing, but I'd observe that IQ in general is pretty subjective; I doubt you'd find any sort of universal agreement on a claim that LR lags behind any particular other program.

02-26-2009, 10:22 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sodbuster Quote
I understand that. Now, for workflow purposes, and not wanting to confuse genuine 'negatives' with ones I've tinkered with, what do people suggest?
Not sure what you mean. RAW files are *never* tinkered with - no program I am aware of modifies them in any way.
02-26-2009, 11:29 PM   #18
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I may be wrong, but I think that the LR adjustments that are saved in a "sidecar" file when you work with a PEF format file are actually embedded in the DNG format file in a reserved section of the DNG RAW file.
02-27-2009, 06:47 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by mithrandir Quote
I may be wrong, but I think that the LR adjustments that are saved in a "sidecar" file when you work with a PEF format file are actually embedded in the DNG format file in a reserved section of the DNG RAW file.
This is true -- the adjustments metadata are stored directly in the DNG. When working with PEF, they are stored in an XMP file . It should be stressed, however, that no image data is changed by Lightroom, even if the adjustment metadata are stored within the DNG.

02-27-2009, 08:11 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
??? I don't use LR and have never recommended it except as but one example of a program that supports the "modern" type of workflow. I have no opinion on its demosaicing, but I'd observe that IQ in general is pretty subjective; I doubt you'd find any sort of universal agreement on a claim that LR lags behind any particular other program.
demosaicing is very simple thing to judge - raw converter either resolves the fine details or not, either produces artefacts or not...
02-27-2009, 08:20 AM   #21
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To me, I never understood the advantage of PEF. DNG seems to be the more "universal" format anyway and every software I have used has never presented a problem in understanding that kind of file as opposed to PEF. Sure, I know PEF is a smaller file, but with the price of high capacity SD cards these days and the size of the common hard drive on computers lately, not to mention affordable external hard drives being so common for saving mass storage, it seems to be a moot point about the size...besides, what advantage is it to have to always convert files eventually?

Jason
02-27-2009, 08:21 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
No, all the software I'm familiar with supports both. I'll take your word for it there are still some stragglers out there. But I would observe that when the K20D first came out, programs that support DNG supported DNG from the K20D immediately, even though they didn't support PEF from the new model for weeks or months. Same with all other new models. So as far as I am concerned, it's a wash in general. But if your favorite program doesn't support one format or the other, then that's all that matters.
well, as soon you will start limiting yourself to your favorite programs only - the rules are different... but DxO, C1 and Bibble are not small players on a raw conversion market (I did not check DPP from Canon or Capture NX from Nikon or similar programms shipped by manufacturers - but I guess they don't support DNG just because it is not their native camera raw format... one exception might be Sumsung - but I do not if their version of SilkyPix will work w/ 3rd party DNG files or not... it might be locked to Sumsung DNG files like C1 does w/ Leica DNG files) and they apparently all have intent to have crippled or absent .DNG support, because they do not intend to help Adobe... so it will be a mistake to convert your .PEF files to .DNG, you are essentially locking yourself out of the best raw converters trading your freedom of choice for a mediocre consumer-level quality (the best analogy here will be "limited" prime lenses vs plastic kit lenses) of ACR/LR
02-27-2009, 08:42 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
To me, I never understood the advantage of PEF. DNG seems to be the more "universal" format anyway and every software I have used has never presented a problem in understanding that kind of file as opposed to PEF.
1) speaking about software we can limit ourselves to raw converters and then the answer will be clear - Adobe so far can't allow itself to have a crippled support of other raw formats... others so far can allow themselves to have limited (one way or another) or absent support for DNG files...

2) do you remember an issue w/ color profiles (wb) in Pentax DNG files in Feb/March 2008 (just a year ago) or memory does not serve you well ? certainly it was not an issue of cosmic proportions - nevertheless do not do DNG, it will never be too late to convert to DNG later down the road, but if you will convert it now w/o embedding the original raw file "as is" or saving the original raw elsewhere there will be no way back.

02-27-2009, 10:24 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
so it will be a mistake to convert your .PEF files to .DNG, you are essentially locking yourself out of the best raw converters trading your freedom of choice for a mediocre consumer-level quality (the best analogy here will be "limited" prime lenses vs plastic kit lenses) of ACR/LR
Again, I have no personal experience here; all I can do is wonder then why ACR seems so ubiquitous among so many pros. Sure, I know, so is Canon & Nikon, and I don't buy into their superiority on that basis. But I also don't fool myself into thinking Canon and Nikon are *worse* and the pros who use them are stupid for choosing the inferior tools. I figure the difference between Pentax and Canon are pretty insignificant, really, with small advantages and disadvantages to each that we are all well familiar with and come down to personal preference; my assumption is that the same is true of ACR versus Bibble or whatever.

But in any case, you have convinced me that DNG support is indeed not as universal as I thought it had become. Would be interesting to check on this again in another few years, though.

BTW, I should add that I personally don't use DNG - not worth the trouble with my K200D since PEF is already compressed. I did convert to DNG to save space with my DS. But I actually *prefer* having sidecars as opposed to embedding metadata in my files.
02-27-2009, 01:46 PM   #25
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Once editing

Is it better to have .tif (about 12 images per CD-R!), or is .png just as good with half the file size?

Or something else?
02-27-2009, 01:51 PM   #26
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Adobe's DNG converter, and also the LR 2.3 beta - these are what I'm using. Then viewing the thumbnails in XP, where I see the turquoise cast, compared to the PEF.

Which one of those might be the problem?
02-27-2009, 01:55 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
1) speaking about software we can limit ourselves to raw converters and then the answer will be clear - Adobe so far can't allow itself to have a crippled support of other raw formats... others so far can allow themselves to have limited (one way or another) or absent support for DNG files...

2) do you remember an issue w/ color profiles (wb) in Pentax DNG files in Feb/March 2008 (just a year ago) or memory does not serve you well ? certainly it was not an issue of cosmic proportions - nevertheless do not do DNG, it will never be too late to convert to DNG later down the road, but if you will convert it now w/o embedding the original raw file "as is" or saving the original raw elsewhere there will be no way back.
I am not sure why you decide to take an aggressive tone in regards to my post, but hey, knock yourself out.

And, to you answer your question about my memory, it's fine...I made a statement based on MY experience, not yours. So far, none of my experience with DNG has caused any problems.

Carry on.



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02-27-2009, 02:08 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
1) speaking about software we can limit ourselves to raw converters and then the answer will be clear - Adobe so far can't allow itself to have a crippled support of other raw formats... others so far can allow themselves to have limited (one way or another) or absent support for DNG files...
While this is true in general, in real world terms it really isn't much of a concern. As Adobe has submitted DNG to ISO to become a standard raw format more and more 3rd party apps are supporting it directly.

QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
/2) do you remember an issue w/ color profiles (wb) in Pentax DNG files in Feb/March 2008 (just a year ago) or memory does not serve you well ? certainly it was not an issue of cosmic proportions - nevertheless do not do DNG, it will never be too late to convert to DNG later down the road, but if you will convert it now w/o embedding the original raw file "as is" or saving the original raw elsewhere there will be no way back.
This is not a raw file format issue it is a camera profile issue and do not confuse the two just to prove your point. If you want to use PEF because you feel that you will have more choices in the future then fine, do so, but as mentioned above more and more applications support DNG and that will only continue to grow. Even Samsung has seen the proverbial "writing on the wall" and only offer DNG in their K20 clone.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Again, I have no personal experience here; all I can do is wonder then why ACR seems so ubiquitous among so many pros. Sure, I know, so is Canon & Nikon, and I don't buy into their superiority on that basis. But I also don't fool myself into thinking Canon and Nikon are *worse* and the pros who use them are stupid for choosing the inferior tools. I figure the difference between Pentax and Canon are pretty insignificant, really, with small advantages and disadvantages to each that we are all well familiar with and come down to personal preference; my assumption is that the same is true of ACR versus Bibble or whatever.

But in any case, you have convinced me that DNG support is indeed not as universal as I thought it had become. Would be interesting to check on this again in another few years, though.

BTW, I should add that I personally don't use DNG - not worth the trouble with my K200D since PEF is already compressed. I did convert to DNG to save space with my DS. But I actually *prefer* having sidecars as opposed to embedding metadata in my files.
Here is a short list of DNG support:

Software:
Adobe products, of course
Bibble supports native DNG, that means Pentax and Samsung and others
Corel Photo Paint
Digital Pro 3 & 4
ACDSee Pro supports native DNG
SilkyPix
Phase One
DxO Labs
Extensis Portfolio
Camera manufacturers:
Pentax
Samsung
Ricoh
Sony
Hasselblad
Leica
Panasonic
Then there are those older cameras that can shoot raw but because of whatever reason your favorite Image Editing or DAM do not support it, and if they didn't when your camera was new why would they now. In a lot, but obviously not all, cases you could convert to DNG and have all the advantages of Raw shooting without being relegated to the software that your manufacturer wants to sell you.

This is not to say that DNG is without its own issues, it is to say that you should not dismiss it so easily as it may still become a standard.
02-27-2009, 02:12 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sodbuster Quote
Is it better to have .tif (about 12 images per CD-R!), or is .png just as good with half the file size?
Archiving PNG is better than archiving TIFF. One important reason is that you can always readjust the white balance in the PNG file, while such corrections are much more difficult with the TIFF file.

Also, RAW image converters are always improving. It may be that you'll get a better photo from your PNG two years from now than you would today. Treat the PNG (or PEF) as a negative, and any other format as a print.
02-27-2009, 02:51 PM   #30
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Jim has got it completely right.
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