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07-21-2009, 08:32 PM   #16
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I agree. But it can be... I don't know, maybe "underwhelming" is the word... to capture a photo you are really proud of, perhaps even an inspired shot, and yet so many people assume that that camera did all the work, or Photoshop did all the work, and it wasn't the skill and vision and inspiration of the photographer, but rather only his technological resources. I think this is reflective of the current state of society and it's interaction with technology, that where technology is present skill and craftsmanship are not necessary.
OK grab someone off the street, give them a digital camera, a copy of LR or PS, training in how to operate the equipment and software and see if they can produce something truly artistic or wonderful! At the end of the day it is the mind and eye behind the camera and the software that produces the results. Anyone can take a nice well exposed, in focus photo, but how many can go the extra step?

07-22-2009, 12:22 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by dsittler Quote
Being new to this and reading the comments here about PP makes me question the pictures I am taking. I look at the other people here who have vast amounts of experience and admire the pictures they have posted in the forum and wish that I could do something like that. Some of my pictures that I take I really like but unsure whether they are "worthy" of the effort of PP. How do you really know if you have a "good" picture to start with? I know this is all subjective but I am second guessing every picture on whether it should be deleted or not before loading them to my computer. Do I post the pictures to the forum that "I think" are good and ask for suggestions on what should be done with them in PP. Or do I play around with them in PP and then post them to the forum and ask for comments?

Does this even make any sense????

Being a mechanic my whole life, things work or they don't and there really isn't any room for art so to speak which makes it a challenge for me. But life isn't living unless I am challenged.......if that makes any sense?

Derek
QuoteOriginally posted by mtroute Quote
I hear ya, I think it's doubly difficult when it's your own art. I have no trouble looking at someone else's picture and right off I know if it's good or not. But my own images challenge my ability to make that easy judgment.
ya both echo my thoughts exactly. I have never written a price of software that i felt was right or good enough, and I have been doing it for a living since the mid 80s.

I have also never taken a shot I truly liked or felt good enough about to see nothing but the flaws in the shot.

I do not know why I am like that, and I sense most of us are the same way, we only see what we consider flaws in our work. I have long suspected that is because we have been conditioned to see things in such a light because of the nit-pickers of the world who would not be happy if they fell into a pit and broke a leg but found a treasure of 1000lbs in gold...they would only whine about the leg and look for someone to blame and sue.

It is just the world as it is I suppose.

I never tell people if a standard photo is processed because they do not realize even the snapshots they process at Walmart are adjusted to some degree...photo's have always been manipulated somehow.

Ironically, i recently took a shot that turned out would have been an awful printed photo, so I did process it in PS to look more like a drawing. I made several prints myself and order a couple 8x10's from an online lab...bought some cheap precut matte boards and frames at Michael's (an general crafts and art chain store for those outside the US who might not know), spray coated them to add texture and stiffness....people fawned all over them, in fact one of the 8x10's sold the same day to someone, I am completely embarrassed to say, for freaking $50 no less!!, the funds went to the "party pool" at the convalescent center where both my mom and grandmother are now...it simply shows if people don't know and they just like something that is good enough, spare them the details unless it is spun in marketing terms they have learned to let make their decisions for them.
07-22-2009, 01:33 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by flippedgazelle Quote
I agree. But it can be... I don't know, maybe "underwhelming" is the word... to capture a photo you are really proud of, perhaps even an inspired shot, and yet so many people assume that that camera did all the work, or Photoshop did all the work, and it wasn't the skill and vision and inspiration of the photographer, but rather only his technological resources. I think this is reflective of the current state of society and it's interaction with technology, that where technology is present skill and craftsmanship are not necessary.
I hear you, mate, and there are certainly people who don't value the learning and effort that go into mastering technology in order to produce fine work. (It's curious that I don't find the same lack of appreciation with regard to computerised music, where many complex and (sometimes!) beautiful sounds are generated just by pressing a few keys. Go figure).
Nevertheless, there's a lot of photography in the galleries out there selling for hundreds of dollars, all of it processed, often to a large degree. This suggests that it's still the end product that people care about, not how you did it. And when I compare an uplifting or challenging, skilfully-processed photograph with some examples of what passes for art these days - a toilet seat nailed to a piece of wood, a pile of plastic rubbish, you know what I mean - well, I know what I value more.
Keep taking photos, keep working on your skills and enjoy yourself. For most of us, it's only a hobby...
07-23-2009, 01:39 AM   #19
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ash, you write "Without PP, just as with dark-room editing in the film days, photography would be a lot blander.'
You are so right. My old K10 can make an image that my Hasselblad from 1977 or there abouts look second class. Of course it gets a little help from Lightroom 2 and often PsCs4 as well.

07-23-2009, 01:45 AM   #20
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QuoteQuote:
Of course it gets a little help from Lightroom 2 and often PsCs4 as well.
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
07-23-2009, 08:13 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by photog Quote
ash, you write "Without PP, just as with dark-room editing in the film days, photography would be a lot blander.'
You are so right. My old K10 can make an image that my Hasselblad from 1977 or there abouts look second class. Of course it gets a little help from Lightroom 2 and often PsCs4 as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
"...we get by with a little help from our friends..." to put a twist on the song...

07-28-2009, 12:52 AM   #22
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I use PS4 and LR2 exclusively for editing and printing images. They ary simply magic! However, a great image starts in the mind or imagination of the photographer. Tha Adobe products enable him to make his visualization into a great photograph.
Ron McDermott

07-28-2009, 02:41 PM   #23
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Only 100 years ago, painters were worried that photography was killing their art form. A few realized that photography actually liberated them from representational art. Now photographers are worried that the computer is killing their art form.

History certainly repeats itself.
07-28-2009, 06:13 PM   #24
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Digital photography and computer PP is creating a whole new art form.
07-28-2009, 06:52 PM   #25
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Each to their own.

But my opinion is that I usually dislike any photo that has noticable post-processing. I'm not saying that an unedited photo is a better or more 'realistic', but that to me the key is to only edit it to a point where it enhances the photo as a real photograph - where you can't really tell it's been 'photo-shopped'. This is pretty subjective.

This is probably because I like photo-journalism and street photography, and the emphasis on displaying 'real' life or events. Again - subjective.

But one thing does bug me - photography magazines etc that try and sell copies by claiming that articles in it will help you 'use photoshop to turn your ordinary photos into a masterpiece!' ... well that's just ridiculous. You can enhance a photo, you can't create a masterpiece - a great photo has been created by the time the shutter clicks.
07-28-2009, 08:47 PM   #26
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We did many things with film that are considered digital only. I only darkroomed black and white images in the bathroom, but even there, I dodged and burned and made montages on a single print - that might have been called "cloning" if I did it today. I gave up the darkroom side of things many years ago, because I would much rather be out taking photos than spending hours in the darkroom. The same goes for post processing. I do it under duress. I spend more time rating my images than I do fixing them.

The more exotic treatments of film, I farmed out. A friend asked for help for a special birthday present, knowing that I used a professional lab in Vancouver, BC. He had a slide of great grandma taken in her old home, green tongue and groove panelling and all. He had a 4x6 print of three more generations of women in a modern panelled den. That laboratory came up with an superb 8 x 10 with all four generations as a group photo in the modern den. They made internegatives, they airbrushed and they returned a gem. The family was delighted. It only cost $120 (Canadian) 22 years ago. Shipping and frame were extra.

Post processing is a fancy word for digital darkroom from where I sit.
07-28-2009, 08:54 PM   #27
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I've heard quite a few people with darkroom experience say that there is very little (if anything) that photoshop can do that you couldn't do in the darkroom. I guess the difference is that now editing is faster, easier and available to more people.
07-28-2009, 10:43 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by CWyatt Quote
I've heard quite a few people with darkroom experience say that there is very little (if anything) that photoshop can do that you couldn't do in the darkroom. I guess the difference is that now editing is faster, easier and available to more people.
plus you can do it in your underwear or even nekkid under a fan on a hot day...or at your fav coffee shop, park or anywhere you can view your laptop display. BTW, I encourage the wearing of clothes when PP'ing in public places...nekkid is usually frowned upon but going commando is still possible...
07-28-2009, 10:59 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
plus you can do it in your underwear or even nekkid under a fan on a hot day...or at your fav coffee shop, park or anywhere you can view your laptop display. BTW, I encourage the wearing of clothes when PP'ing in public places...nekkid is usually frowned upon but going commando is still possible...
I'm extremely wary of laptop screens. Have you callibrated it? They can be out in colour and contrast significantly. And then the ambient light and your angle to the screen can change it a lot even if you have it well set up.
07-28-2009, 11:57 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by CWyatt Quote
I'm extremely wary of laptop screens. Have you callibrated it? They can be out in colour and contrast significantly. And then the ambient light and your angle to the screen can change it a lot even if you have it well set up.
It all depends on what you buy...buy consumer grade and get consumer grade components. As for calibration yup...and never had any probs about shots or prints I have made via BayPhoto. They look just like what is on the display and what I recall when I took the shot.

I know my previous post I was joking but I honestly can buy any system I wish and for the past 24+ years have never used anything but laptops/portables (my first 'portable' was a Compaq 22lb witha built-in 9" green display with CGA graphics...wooohoo!! Big time stuff back then!! hahahaha)...the biggest difference in them are the consumer grade product builds vs. the business builds. If ya research them a bit you will begin to basically all consumer grade laptops are beta products, cutting a lot of corners. They use poor display panels and marginal CCFL bulbs, though much has improved backlight wise with introduction of LED backlighting. The panels are usually lacking not only in terms of QC but are often culled as each panel is graded during QC testing. Lower grade panels go into the consumer product lines. Highest grade panels go into business builds.

Also consumer builds use extremely crappy/cheap cases and frames. That is because the mfg's consider, now sit down for this, but they consider consumer grade laptops as not really portable computers. That is based on a study done a few years back that like 90% of all consumer purchased laptops never left the desk at home. All of that goes into why you can buy an HP Pavilion 17" laptop for under $1k but a 17" from their current business lines (HP Compaq series systems) are $3k-$4k. But if you shop at the right time of year you can get in the door at around $1200-$1500 with a 3yr on-site accident covered system.

Those are but a couple reasons business builds are more pricey. The other major difference will be the case itself. Mg-Alloy has been the business build standard for a long time.

There are some lines that at one time are neither business grade or consumer grade, rather somewhere in between but with very solid graphics subsystems...Alienware was excellent in both build, and QC...but as I recall they were bought by Dell a couple years ago...

This is all a culmination of years of personal use and experience with various mfg's. Currently I would not touch a Dell system and find HP Compaq much better...my primary laptop is a couple years old now, an nw9440, and runs 24/7/365. I just upgraded to a 500GB drive and added another 500GB drive to the optical drive slot. The 2nd drive is SATA but the actual interface is only IDE so it's not super fast but it's good enough until my next laptop in a year or so...

BTW, the best time of year to find good deals from HP or even 3rd party sellers who sell the business systems, is from mid-January through mid-March as the new laptops are out about March/April as a rule. They are shown in November but like camera gear, as a rule, never seem to hit the market until Q1 the following year.

Even given all that if I was a measurebator or. more importantly, if my living depended on getting the images just right, I would have the best of the best monitors whether they be big CRT's or high-end LCD panels for those high end jobs...the graphics cards are no different from that found in a desktop system...and you never have the current best...

Plus remember, no matter how much you perfect the image colors on your system, when viewed online all your hard work will be undone by people using LCD panels that "...make your brown eyes look blue..."

Cripes!! sorry for the long arsed reply...kinda got carried away there...hehehe...oops!!
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