Sharpening problem...

FHPhotographer · 10-04-2009, 11:42 AM

Does anybody know how Camera RAW "sharpening" correlates with Photoshop USM and Smart Sharpen?

I must be doing something wrong, because all three sharpening modes in the images below look the same to me with sharpening amount @ 100 and radius @ 1.0:

RAW

USM

USM + SS

Shouldn't there be apparent sharpening difference between the three, or at least in the third one with Smart Sharpen?
Brian

d.bradley · 10-04-2009, 11:52 AM

My impression (no indepth study or anything) is in line with what you've found. ACR seems to sharpen at the default redius 1 pixel, which in my mind is too large a radius for web publishing. Same with the "Sharper" resize method if you're resampling an image. I can't comment on smart sharpen as I don't use it.

In a well exposed and low noise photo I tend to sharpen around 0.1-0.2 pixels with USM with 250-450% strength. Maybe you know this already...but IMHO the key to USM is the radius, which needs to change mostly based on the lens (how much microcontrast is captured) and the content of the image (presence or absence of fine details and textures). If the radius is too high or you sharpen too much, you get halo artifacts.

Here's an example of an image resized (bicubic) sharpened with about 0.2px radius @ 350%:

valleylad · 10-04-2009, 12:54 PM

The USM settings that I use, recommended by Scott Kelby(editor, Photoshop user mag) for moderate sharpening are: Amount: 120%, Radius: 1, Threshold: 3. These settings have given me very good results.

**Ash** · 10-04-2009, 01:17 PM

For me, Camera Raw produces less impressive sharpening results (both in intensity and in 100% crop aesthetics) than PS. Plus I'd also like to leave sharpening to the last step, so I don't adjust sharpening in ACR. I do my editing in PS, then normally use either USM or SmartSharpen at 100%, rad 1.2 and thres 5-7 to effect.

FHPhotographer · 10-04-2009, 02:12 PM

d.Bradley,
Well, I tried USM @ .2 and 250%, and it still isn't showing any significant difference:
USM #2

FHPhotographer · 10-04-2009, 02:14 PM

Ash, you don't do two-step sharpening, using USM for capture, then edit, then sharpen for output?
Brian

enoeske · 10-04-2009, 03:25 PM

Sharpening using the above methods won't give you a discernible difference in those small 600px web images. If you zoom to 100% and do before and afters, you will see the difference.

What are you trying to do with your sharpening?

If you are looking to sharpen those out of focus areas due to depth of field, PP sharpening won't help.

FHPhotographer · 10-04-2009, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by enoeske

Sharpening using the above methods won't give you a discernible difference in those small 600px web images. If you zoom to 100% and do before and afters, you will see the difference.

Those are 100% crops from a 360dpi 13x8.5" sharpened images, there isn't any more resolution to see. If the sharpening doesn't show up at this level, it doesn't show up, correct?
Brian

enoeske · 10-04-2009, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by FHPhotographer

Those are 100% crops from a 360dpi 13x8.5" sharpened images, there isn't any more resolution to see. If the sharpening doesn't show up at this level, it doesn't show up, correct?
Brian

My bad. I didn't know those were crops.

Are you familiar with the snapshot button in the history pallet in PS? It looks like a button with a small camera. When you click it, it takes a snapshot of your current work.

Try opening a raw, with no sharpening, then apply a sharpening method.
Take a snapshot.
Click back to the initial open raw file in the snapshot history and start over with a new sharpening method.
Take another snapshot.

You should have the original file, and 2 snapshots with 2 different sharpening methods to compare. Now you can compare any versions you want. Zoom to 100% and click between the different snapshots.

Are you seeing anything now?

d.bradley · 10-04-2009, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by FHPhotographer

Those are 100% crops from a 360dpi 13x8.5" sharpened images, there isn't any more resolution to see. If the sharpening doesn't show up at this level, it doesn't show up, correct?
Brian

I didn't realize they were 100% crops either. My example of sharpening is used to bring back the details lost when a larger image is resampled to web size.

Check out this link on sharpening...it's one of the better articles I've read, and even talks about what sharpening looks like at 100% (or magnified) crops.

True detail vs. fake sharpness | Photoclub Alpha

**Ash** · 10-04-2009, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by FHPhotographer

Ash, you don't do two-step sharpening, using USM for capture, then edit, then sharpen for output?
Brian

Hi Brian - I have a less is more approach and attempt to get the image as sharp as possible in camera without the need for extra sharpening.

Innately I do have a 2 step approach - only it's the default sharpening by ACR (the 25% detail amount), then edit, and SmartSharpen/USM last of all.

Must admit, haven't tried USM then edit then sharpen again as a workflow, but I'm always weary of oversharpening...

FHPhotographer · 10-05-2009, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Ash

Hi Brian - I have a less is more approach and attempt to get the image as sharp as possible in camera without the need for extra sharpening.

Innately I do have a 2 step approach - only it's the default sharpening by ACR (the 25% detail amount), then edit, and SmartSharpen/USM last of all.

Must admit, haven't tried USM then edit then sharpen again as a workflow, but I'm always weary of oversharpening...

I suspect you are right. I just labored through this post on contrast that is a follow-on and updates Bruce Fraser's 3-Step Sharpening method; between the pre-sharpening contrast work to get the image ready for sharpening, and then the 3-steps of capture/creative/output sharpening, I got so bolloxed up I gave up for a double martini. I'm going to apply Occam's Razor in the future: the simplest post process is the best post process, entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

Brian

10-04-2009, 11:42 AM	#1
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297	Sharpening problem... Does anybody know how Camera RAW "sharpening" correlates with Photoshop USM and Smart Sharpen? I must be doing something wrong, because all three sharpening modes in the images below look the same to me with sharpening amount @ 100 and radius @ 1.0: RAW USM USM + SS Shouldn't there be apparent sharpening difference between the three, or at least in the third one with Smart Sharpen? Brian

10-04-2009, 02:14 PM	#6
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297 Original Poster	Ash, you don't do two-step sharpening, using USM for capture, then edit, then sharpen for output? Brian Last edited by FHPhotographer; 10-04-2009 at 02:16 PM. Reason: correction

10-04-2009, 03:28 PM	#8
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297 Original Poster	these are 100% crops Originally posted by enoeske Sharpening using the above methods won't give you a discernible difference in those small 600px web images. If you zoom to 100% and do before and afters, you will see the difference. Those are 100% crops from a 360dpi 13x8.5" sharpened images, there isn't any more resolution to see. If the sharpening doesn't show up at this level, it doesn't show up, correct? Brian

10-05-2009, 12:11 AM	#12
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297 Original Poster	entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem Originally posted by Ash Hi Brian - I have a less is more approach and attempt to get the image as sharp as possible in camera without the need for extra sharpening. Innately I do have a 2 step approach - only it's the default sharpening by ACR (the 25% detail amount), then edit, and SmartSharpen/USM last of all. Must admit, haven't tried USM then edit then sharpen again as a workflow, but I'm always weary of oversharpening... I suspect you are right. I just labored through this post on contrast that is a follow-on and updates Bruce Fraser's 3-Step Sharpening method; between the pre-sharpening contrast work to get the image ready for sharpening, and then the 3-steps of capture/creative/output sharpening, I got so bolloxed up I gave up for a double martini. I'm going to apply Occam's Razor in the future: the simplest post process is the best post process, entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem Brian

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10-04-2009, 11:52 AM	#2
d.bradley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 631	My impression (no indepth study or anything) is in line with what you've found. ACR seems to sharpen at the default redius 1 pixel, which in my mind is too large a radius for web publishing. Same with the "Sharper" resize method if you're resampling an image. I can't comment on smart sharpen as I don't use it. In a well exposed and low noise photo I tend to sharpen around 0.1-0.2 pixels with USM with 250-450% strength. Maybe you know this already...but IMHO the key to USM is the radius, which needs to change mostly based on the lens (how much microcontrast is captured) and the content of the image (presence or absence of fine details and textures). If the radius is too high or you sharpen too much, you get halo artifacts. Here's an example of an image resized (bicubic) sharpened with about 0.2px radius @ 350%:

10-04-2009, 12:54 PM	#3
valleylad Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Ottawa Valley Photos: Gallery Posts: 230	The USM settings that I use, recommended by Scott Kelby(editor, Photoshop user mag) for moderate sharpening are: Amount: 120%, Radius: 1, Threshold: 3. These settings have given me very good results.

10-04-2009, 01:17 PM	#4
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	For me, Camera Raw produces less impressive sharpening results (both in intensity and in 100% crop aesthetics) than PS. Plus I'd also like to leave sharpening to the last step, so I don't adjust sharpening in ACR. I do my editing in PS, then normally use either USM or SmartSharpen at 100%, rad 1.2 and thres 5-7 to effect.

10-04-2009, 02:12 PM	#5
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297 Original Poster	d.Bradley, Well, I tried USM @ .2 and 250%, and it still isn't showing any significant difference: USM #2

10-04-2009, 03:25 PM	#7
enoeske Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Surprise, Az Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,136	Sharpening using the above methods won't give you a discernible difference in those small 600px web images. If you zoom to 100% and do before and afters, you will see the difference. What are you trying to do with your sharpening? If you are looking to sharpen those out of focus areas due to depth of field, PP sharpening won't help.

10-04-2009, 03:39 PM	#9
enoeske Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Surprise, Az Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,136	Originally posted by FHPhotographer Those are 100% crops from a 360dpi 13x8.5" sharpened images, there isn't any more resolution to see. If the sharpening doesn't show up at this level, it doesn't show up, correct? Brian My bad. I didn't know those were crops. Are you familiar with the snapshot button in the history pallet in PS? It looks like a button with a small camera. When you click it, it takes a snapshot of your current work. Try opening a raw, with no sharpening, then apply a sharpening method. Take a snapshot. Click back to the initial open raw file in the snapshot history and start over with a new sharpening method. Take another snapshot. You should have the original file, and 2 snapshots with 2 different sharpening methods to compare. Now you can compare any versions you want. Zoom to 100% and click between the different snapshots. Are you seeing anything now?

10-04-2009, 04:19 PM	#10
d.bradley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 631	Originally posted by FHPhotographer Those are 100% crops from a 360dpi 13x8.5" sharpened images, there isn't any more resolution to see. If the sharpening doesn't show up at this level, it doesn't show up, correct? Brian I didn't realize they were 100% crops either. My example of sharpening is used to bring back the details lost when a larger image is resampled to web size. Check out this link on sharpening...it's one of the better articles I've read, and even talks about what sharpening looks like at 100% (or magnified) crops. True detail vs. fake sharpness \| Photoclub Alpha

10-04-2009, 10:36 PM	#11
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by FHPhotographer Ash, you don't do two-step sharpening, using USM for capture, then edit, then sharpen for output? Brian Hi Brian - I have a less is more approach and attempt to get the image as sharp as possible in camera without the need for extra sharpening. Innately I do have a 2 step approach - only it's the default sharpening by ACR (the 25% detail amount), then edit, and SmartSharpen/USM last of all. Must admit, haven't tried USM then edit then sharpen again as a workflow, but I'm always weary of oversharpening...