[Javaslinger]

I'm considering framing some of my photo's for gifts this year, but some of my fave's are horizontal cropped shots that don't fit into a regular frame. What does one to with these?

Here is an example...



Thanks,

Ken

[Steve Beswick]

That is a great shot!

As a Pro framer, I feel I can tell you to do it the way you want it. I underlined you for a reason. Back when I had my retail shop, I had a customer come in and spend four hours trying to match the style of framing that her sister had on a duplicate of the print. The problem was that the framing on the other one was hideous. I have yet to even imagine anything uglier. There were three strong colors of matting with an electric orange aluminum frame around a sepia toned B&W print. To make matters worse, there was probably six inches of matting on each side, and the print was only an 8x10. It was a photo of a few horses outside a barn. Honestly, I'd like to meet the framer that thought it looked good, so I could laugh at him and tell him to quit before he makes anyone else vomit.

Getting back to the story at hand, after the four hour deliberation, the customer was ready to give up and go home. I convince her that after four hours of not wanting to buy something so hideous, to let me try something different for five minutes. I set down one 8 ply mat sample and one moulding sample and she was sold. The best part was that it came out to roughly half of what the abomination would have cost, even with the better glass. It turned out so good that a few weeks later her sister came in and had me re-frame her copy.

I guess my point in telling you this story is this: just before you sit down at the framers design counter, try to wipe your mind of every bit of framing you have ever seen. I can think of at least three different ways to frame the above photo that you or your friends have probably never even seen before. And no, I'm not thinking of an electric orange aluminum frame.

A couple of other things to consider:
* It is far cheaper to spring for acid free backing, cotton rag matting, and UV glass now than it is to replace the cheaper versions five years from now.
* Most inedpendent framers are willing to give pretty good deals on in-stock moulding and matting.
* Shop around. I had a reasonably nice looking retail store, and therefore people were often surprised to find out that I was cheaper than the guy who operated out of a warehouse across town. I guess he had enough business he could be greedy.

Last but not least: This may seem to be a bit contrary to what I said earlier, but be sure to be accepting of your framers input. After all, framing is how he/she (hopefully) makes a living.

-Steve

[pingflood]

I suspect the guy above will disagree with me, but I've found most framing shops to be horrendously overpriced, and advocate buying and assembling your own frames if you don't mind doing a little hands-on work.

Generally I buy from Light Impressions Direct or American Frame -- both places will send you a frame, mat, glazing etc for just about any size you can dream up. You can pick the grade of materials from cheap backers/mat to acid free, cheap acrylic glazing to UV blocking / anti glare, etc etc... depending on your needs.

I recently picked up a 16x20 wood frame (very pretty), mat for 11x14, backer, glazing etc for $80 shipped from American Frame. If I wanted something similar from ANY of the local places it'd be $200-250. Took 15 mins to assemble and the results were excellent.

(edit: note that I usually know exactly what I want for my images; if you are a little uncertain then by all means consult somebody..)

[Steve Beswick]

I suspect the guy above will disagree with me, but I've found most framing shops to be horrendously overpriced, and advocate buying and assembling your own frames if you don't mind doing a little hands-on work.

Generally I buy from Light Impressions Direct or American Frame -- both places will send you a frame, mat, glazing etc for just about any size you can dream up. You can pick the grade of materials from cheap backers/mat to acid free, cheap acrylic glazing to UV blocking / anti glare, etc etc... depending on your needs.

I recently picked up a 16x20 wood frame (very pretty), mat for 11x14, backer, glazing etc for $80 shipped from American Frame. If I wanted something similar from ANY of the local places it'd be $200-250. Took 15 mins to assemble and the results were excellent.

(edit: note that I usually know exactly what I want for my images; if you are a little uncertain then by all means consult somebody..)

So you bought a bunch of stuff for framing standard size artwork. How does that help the OP?

Since you brought up price, I just thought I would give you a little analysis of the $200 frame job at the local framer. I'll even give you the actual price for the materials, not what a customer would pay. Keep in mind that these are west coast prices. There may be a difference on the east coast.

Let's start with the moulding. Your 16x20 will take 7 feet of moulding to make. Unfortunately moulding is not made in 7 foot lengths, so the supplier is going to send a 10 foot stick.

10 feet at ~$3 foot = $30
shipping = $15

Now to the matting. A sheet of good quality 4 ply cotton rag mat board will cost your framer ~$9. I'm going to assume that you have the good taste to double mat your artwork. And no, suppliers will not sell half or quarter of a board.

2 mat boards @ $9 each = $18
shipping = $10

For the glazing we will go with UV clear, which the framer probably keeps in stock. We will ignore the shipping cost on the glass because it is divided up between many orders.

1 sheet 16x20 UV glass = $8

And lets not forget to and something for all the little stuff, like acid free backing, framers points, v-nails, wire, etc.

I'll go with $10, although it seems a little low.

30 + 15 + 18 + 10 + 8 + 10 = $91, which is already more than you paid for the low grade junk you got from American Frame.

On top of the $91 you need to add for:

then there is shop rent, shop utilities, payroll, advertising, insurance, equipment replacement and maintenance, and a thousand other things. Then, if there is anything left, it might be used as income. Keep in mind that there may be upwards of 4 hours put into your order.

Yeah, for $200 they are really screwing you over.

By the way, who are you going to buy your frame from when you want to frame a charcoal? I hope you have someone in mind other than americanframe.com, because they only offer plexiglass, and the static charge will lift the charcoal right off the page. Funny how they don't mention that on their web site. I guess that since they don't have to carry insurance for your artwork it's not really an issue for them. After all, it's not like you can go into their store and complain.

I see now why the mom & pop camera store is doomed. And you are right, I completely disagree with you. By the way, if you put an 11x14 into a 16x20 frame, the side measurement of the matting will not be equal to the top and bottom. That should to look just wonderful.

---

Last edited by Steve Beswick; 11-05-2009 at 10:39 PM.

[K McCall]

Javaslinger, I've run into a similar problems because I refuse to crop so many of my photos, and there are almost no ready-made frames available in 8"x12", 10"x15," 12"x18"...you get the idea.

I have paid the couple hundred dollars to have special prints (hi, Mom!) professionally framed, but I give photos as gifts all the time, so it's unrealistic to expect to spend that much on multiple acquaintances for the holidays.

My much-cheaper and still-nice-looking alternative is to have the photos mounted on thick foamboard or gatorfoam. My local frame shop does this for me as well. As a means of comparison, an 8"x12" print would have cost about $130 to have it framed the way I wanted it, but having it mounted to the cheapest, white foamboard (which I haven't used - I usually go for the thicker black) was about $2. I usually end up paying about $10 per photo.

Be forewarned, though: they're not the easiest things in the world to wrap!

[pingflood]

So you bought a bunch of stuff for framing standard size artwork. How does that help the OP?

Since you brought up price, I just thought I would give you a little analysis of the $200 frame job at the local framer. I'll even give you the actual price for the materials, not what a customer would pay. Keep in mind that these are west coast prices. There may be a difference on the east coast.

Let's start with the moulding. Your 16x20 will take 7 feet of moulding to make. Unfortunately moulding is not made in 7 foot lengths, so the supplier is going to send a 10 foot stick.

10 feet at ~$3 foot = $30
shipping = $15

Now to the matting. A sheet of good quality 4 ply cotton rag mat board will cost your framer ~$9. I'm going to assume that you have the good taste to double mat your artwork. And no, suppliers will not sell half or quarter of a board.

2 mat boards @ $9 each = $18
shipping = $10

For the glazing we will go with UV clear, which the framer probably keeps in stock. We will ignore the shipping cost on the glass because it is divided up between many orders.

1 sheet 16x20 UV glass = $8

And lets not forget to and something for all the little stuff, like acid free backing, framers points, v-nails, wire, etc.

I'll go with $10, although it seems a little low.

30 + 15 + 18 + 10 + 8 + 10 = $91, which is already more than you paid for the low grade junk you got from American Frame.

On top of the $91 you need to add for:

then there is shop rent, shop utilities, payroll, advertising, insurance, equipment replacement and maintenance, and a thousand other things. Then, if there is anything left, it might be used as income. Keep in mind that there may be upwards of 4 hours put into your order.

Yeah, for $200 they are really screwing you over.

By the way, who are you going to buy your frame from when you want to frame a charcoal? I hope you have someone in mind other than americanframe.com, because they only offer plexiglass, and the static charge will lift the charcoal right off the page. Funny how they don't mention that on their web site. I guess that since they don't have to carry insurance for your artwork it's not really an issue for them. After all, it's not like you can go into their store and complain.

I see now why the mom & pop camera store is doomed. And you are right, I completely disagree with you. By the way, if you put an 11x14 into a 16x20 frame, the side measurement of the matting will not be equal to the top and bottom. That should to look just wonderful.

Hey chief, let's not jump all over me for disagreeing with you.

It was not exactly 16x20 -- it was 10.75x13.75 opening with a 2.5" wide mat around it making for 15.75x18.75. Sorry for the confusion there -- I ballparked the numbers when typing up the post. Believe it or not, I am not a complete buffoon when it comes to putting my prints on a wall.

As for the rest -- the advantage of being a big framing supplier is that they likely buy dozens of these 10 foot moldings they might only use 7 feet of for my particular frame. If they have 3 feet "left over" it'll be used on another frame. So they don't need to overcharge for the excess, and everyone wins.

And "low grade junk" -- have you actually bought anything from them? I've used them and Light Impressions Direct for a decade now and they provide excellent quality items.

Sorry if I don't want to subsidize a mom'n'pop store. If I can get the quality and design I need at half the price, I am doing just that.

Finally, if I wanted glass I can get that from Light Impressions. Usually my black and white prints end up behind glass in a Nielsen frame from them, again at about half or a third of the cost I'd be paying to subsidize the places that can't remain competitive.

[Clicker]

print small, mat to fit

[Steve Beswick]

...
Sorry if I don't want to subsidize a mom'n'pop store. If I can get the quality and design I need at half the price, I am doing just that.

Finally, if I wanted glass I can get that from Light Impressions. Usually my black and white prints end up behind glass in a Nielsen frame from them, again at about half or a third of the cost I'd be paying to subsidize the places that can't remain competitive.

Just don't complain when they are all gone, and you can't get unique framing anymore. And please don't try to tell me it's not going to happen. It's already almost over. Just look at what the internet did to the local camera store. I don't need to explain the benefits of having a local retail store, do I?

I spent almost a year before the lease ran out on my shop having many of my once loyal customers tell me I was a thief because they could get their framing done so much cheaper online. I then had the distinct pleasure of going home and telling my wife that we could no longer pay our bills at home or at the shop, and then watching her cry. To add insult to injury, the same customers would often come in a few weeks later with their high quality internet frame (many of them from American Frame, by the way) and ask me to fix the loose corners, or the poorly cut mats, or.... Of course they wanted me to do it for free, because they have been such a good customer over the years, and taken such good care of my family and I. So I'm sorry if you feel that I was jumping all over you, but I tend to get a little irritated when I read things like "... I've found most framing shops to be horrendously overpriced ..."

I do have one concern though. Since more and more Americans have your mindset of "I can get it cheaper online, so I will", and almost all of the manufacturing has already left the country, what will you do for a job in 10-15 years? You had better hold on to that money you saved by shopping online, because you are going to need it.

[pingflood]

I do have one concern though. Since more and more Americans have your mindset of "I can get it cheaper online, so I will", and almost all of the manufacturing has already left the country, what will you do for a job in 10-15 years? You had better hold on to that money you saved by shopping online, because you are going to need it.

Now, let's not make assumptions here. I often DO support local businesses, when I feel that I get additional value out of purchasing from them. For instance, we just spend $50 more on a new dishwasher to buy from a local outfit compared to Best Buy down the street. Why? Because I can go to these guys and get parts, they can do installations that I can rely on (rather than some random minimum wage dude from a chain store), and they know their products well. In this case, I get a lot of value out of the $50 extra I spent, so it makes sense to me.

When it comes to framing, I usually know exactly what I want, and just purchase it at the best price. So in this case, spending extra money to get the same thing from a local place doesn't make sense to me since it doesn't really add any value _for me_. So why should I?

BTW, regarding concern for American jobs -- since we were discussing American Frame in particular they are US based, and source most of their materials from US companies. And I have yet to purchase anything that was not well cut, finished and put together from them.

[Canada_Rockies]

I have a one-of-a-kind black and white 8x10 print of HMS Bounty (the replica) coming into Vancouver, just outside the Lion's Gate Bridge. I entered the print into a contest, and MGM awarded me second prize in the black and white division, in 1962. The contest, of course, was for all rights and the negatives, so all I have is a print I had made working with a darkroom artist. He made two copies, one for me, one for MGM. It was in a basic no-glass document frame, and hung on assorted walls for 40+ years.

Two years ago, for my birthday, my wife had the print framed by Coal Miner Galleries. Frankly, there is no way on earth that I could even have come close to enhancing the print the way he did. If he had framed my submission I would have taken first prize rather than second.

It is possible that you have just as good an eye as the frame shop owner/artist, but I sure do not. I am willing to pay extra to have better.

[Steve Beswick]

When it comes to framing, I usually know exactly what I want, and just purchase it at the best price. So in this case, spending extra money to get the same thing from a local place doesn't make sense to me since it doesn't really add any value _for me_. So why should I?

well, since you aparently know more about framing than people who have chosen framing for their career...
When a local business closes down, the shop it inhabited often sits empty for quite some time. If enough local shops sit empty it has a negative affect on property values in the sorrunding areas, including the place where you reside. Furthermore, when a local shop closes the people that worked there are now adding to local unemployment levels, which also has an affect on local property values. Is that a personal enough reason for you? Do you see the $value$ in those shops staying in business?

BTW, regarding concern for American jobs -- since we were discussing American Frame in particular they are US based, and source most of their materials from US companies. And I have yet to purchase anything that was not well cut, finished and put together from them.

Are you really going to try and compare a ~$20 an hour career in a retail store to a minimum wage part time job in a warehouse?

[pingflood]

well, since you aparently know more about framing than people who have chosen framing for their career...

You could make the same argument for not painting your house, not doing repairs on your own car, not taking pictures, and so on... I did not say I know more than professional framers; should I not be allowed to pick out a couch on my own since I'm not a trained and professional interior decorator too?

When a local business closes down, the shop it inhabited often sits empty for quite some time. If enough local shops sit empty it has a negative affect on property values in the sorrunding areas, including the place where you reside. Furthermore, when a local shop closes the people that worked there are now adding to local unemployment levels, which also has an affect on local property values. Is that a personal enough reason for you? Do you see the $value$ in those shops staying in business?

As I said, I like supporting local business when I feel that I get additional value out of it. If a local shop closes, another might spring up that provides a service I care about, and then I'll support that. If not, I would effectively subsidize something I don't care about, and that isn't really how I operate.

Are you really going to try and compare a ~$20 an hour career in a retail store to a minimum wage part time job in a warehouse?

I've worked retail jobs, and I would neither call them a "career" nor did even management at those places make anywhere near $20/hour. Granted, it was some years ago, but the wages haven't jumped that high, especially in the past couple of years!

And you are really reaching here; are you saying all the people employed by companies like AF and their vendors simply have minimum wage part time workers in warehouses? Do the part time warehouse grunts design mouldings, cut frames, make prints, cut mats and all that too?

[pingflood]

It is possible that you have just as good an eye as the frame shop owner/artist, but I sure do not. I am willing to pay extra to have better.

If you're talking about your own work/prints, you ARE the artist, and I would argue that if you spend a little time on it you can better judge how your work should be presented than somebody who has no connection to it.

But that's just my opinion....

[Steve Beswick]

...
I've worked retail jobs, and I would neither call them a "career" nor did even management at those places make anywhere near $20/hour. Granted, it was some years ago, but the wages haven't jumped that high, especially in the past couple of years!

And you are really reaching here; are you saying all the people employed by companies like AF and their vendors simply have minimum wage part time workers in warehouses? Do the part time warehouse grunts design mouldings, cut frames, make prints, cut mats and all that too?

These two paragraphs show me that you don't have a clue how the framing industry works. Employes of retail frame shops regularly make $20+ per hour, sometimes much more. They are often career framers. And yes, the warehouse type framing jobs are typically minimum wage and part time. Moulding is typically made in foreign countries, often China for "low end" and Italy for "high end". Mouldng design is almost always farmed out.

[Wildnsyko]

Thank God my parents have their own framing business which they run out of their home. They do very little advertising and get most of their work by word of mouth. They actually keep pretty busy. This is just a hobby that they do on the side and their prices aren't real high, but lower than the local frame shops.