[stewart_photo]

I can't figure out how Mac is a monopoly. Microsoft is the one that had to face congress for being a monopoly.

Apple is as much of a monopoly in it's own little market segment as Microsoft is in the overall market. Apple hardware. Apple operating system. Apple software in wide segments of the Mac software market. At least Microsoft doesn't limit hardware choices nearly as much as Apple does when it comes to the Mac OS. In the end, if Apple had succeeded in the market to the level Microsoft has, it would have been before Congress long ago to answer monopoly charges. The company avoids that by remaining a relatively tiny player in an overall industry.

stewart

[PDL]

Remember - a monopoly is not illegal.

In order to buy a Mac - you have to purchase it from Apple. In order to get OSX you have to buy it from Apple. Only with the release of the Intel based Mac's were you able to run Windows (I don't know if you can load Linux on a Intel Mac). If you tried to run OSX on a PC - Apple would sue you. In order to buy software for a Mac - you have to get it from an Apple approved source or risk the wrath of Jobs. Add into this that Apple controlls the pricing on most of these elements. That is a monopoly - classic definition.

There was a individual who released a 0-day vulerability for OSX - he is getting death threats from users. It is not the hardware/software that is the issue - it is the attitude of the users. Yes, I have had intances where I said I was using a PC to do PP and been tols "You are not a creative person - I order to be creative in photography -- you have to be using a Mac". Had the same sort of comments when discussing the brand of camera I use too.

Mac's are not "bad", when you have a single manufacturer, proprietary OS (OSX is not open source and Apple is very protective of it), a single "standard" for hardware interfaces you get a consistent experience. In the PC world you have multiple hardware vendors, multiple CPU vendors, memory vendors, periphera lvendors and the major OS manufacture has to integrate all these various sources into a consistent experience.

As for my experience - I have not had driver issues - except for really off brand stuff that was never intended for the current OS. Backward compatability does have its limits. Most driver issues are issues that should be brought up with the vendor, any OS vendor can not be expected to write drivers for each little card out there - of which the OS vendor does not have the specs for. (This goes for Linux as well as Windows) However with the Mac - Apple controls the motherboard hardware very closely - in order to get the specs you have to deal with Apple - and that concept works very well for them. Mac hardware is very good, their engineers are very smart. Linux and Windows engineers do not have that luxury.

Anyway - Mac's are OK - I hope the OP is happy - but I bet there isn't anything he can do on his Mac that I can not do on my PC. If fact I can draw on my screen (on my tablet) can you do that on your laptop?

PDL

[davemdsn]

I guess it is the American way, if someone offends you offend them back, just to make a point, even if there is no point.

How did it get there? This thread started off with somone inocently asking for advice on a raw processor and the next two posts were people bashing Mac users. If PC users think that Mac users are "smug", "evangelists", "boring" or [buyers of iSard] then why not take the higher road and show some dignity.

[davemdsn]

Apple is as much of a monopoly in it's own little market segment as Microsoft is in the overall market. Apple hardware. Apple operating system. Apple software in wide segments of the Mac software market. At least Microsoft doesn't limit hardware choices nearly as much as Apple does when it comes to the Mac OS. In the end, if Apple had succeeded in the market to the level Microsoft has, it would have been before Congress long ago to answer monopoly charges. The company avoids that by remaining a relatively tiny player in an overall industry.

stewart

In my MacBook Pro - Processor made by Intel, graphics card made by Nvidia, DVD drive made my Matshita. Photoshop by Adobe. Toast by Roxio. Web browser by Mozilla. Hardly a Mac monopoly.

It is true that Apple designs most of what goes into a Mac, that's why there are less compatibility issues. Limited hardware choices? I can plug any device into my Mac and it works right away, no drivers for most of them. In the Mac Pro tower you can add up to 4 plug and play hard drives... no cables! Just slide them in. Doesn't matter what brand.

Yeah, we should definitely smash the smaller players in larger markets. Companies like, well Pentax. Darn things only take Pentax lenses! Talk about hardware limitations. And their market share is too small, they should be shut down.

For what it's worth, when I visit the Mac forums I don't see PC bashing, but when I come here I see this thread. I only made the switch to Mac a few weeks ago and still have several PCs around the house. I am embarrassed by the behavior here. I would expect Pentax users to know what being an underdog feels like and not stoop to that level.

[Wethphotography]

.

I know that the Adobe products available for the PC are available for Mac's - although I do not know if Elements is available.

You know - when I see a great image - I don't care what camera/Lens/PP software/computer it came from - it's about the image.

To paraphrase the late curator of Photography at MOMA
It is easy to take a photograph - It is hard to make a photograph that is intellectually stimulating and emotionally compelling.

PDL

Elements is available for the Mac, currently version 4.0; I run 5.0 on my PC and 4.0 on my Mac and both help me process my photos...which is the point. And ACR works great on my PEF images on both platforms.

Your point on the final results that matter, reminds me of my favorite quote from Davemdsn about camera brand debates: The camera is the tool, the photographer is the artist. (A crude paraphrase...hope I didn't mangle it Dave )

[davemdsn]

Erl, I like it. To say that either platform is BAD is like saying the same thing about a camera brand you might not like. The fact is, each is better for some people. Some people blissfully use one for their whole lives never experienceing the other, while some switch in anger over some issue or other. There are plenty of computer users out there to keep both in business. It would be a shame if either of them actually went out of businees because then we really would have a monopoly. No competition is bad for consumers.

[stewart_photo]

(snip) This thread started off with somone inocently asking for advice on a raw processor and the next two posts were people bashing Mac users. If PC users think that Mac users are "smug", "evangelists", "boring" or [buyers of iSard] then why not take the higher road and show some dignity.

Look, I don't necessarily dislike Apple. I used their products for well over twenty years. And I don't dislike most Mac users either. Heck, I was a Mac user for almost twenty years. However, to be honest, I do have to agree with some of the criticisms of both.

Nobody said Apple users are boring. The individual "chrisman" said Mac "fanatics/evangelists" are boring. And, after two decades of endlessly touting the Mac, those fanatics and evangelists ARE indeed boring. However, hopefully few Mac users are either fanatics or evangelists.

By the way, the word "evangelists" comes from Apple's own efforts to once promote the Mac itself to the level of a religion. During that period, "Apple Evangelist" was the official job title for the company's sales/marketing personnel. Apple also had a web site called "The Mac Evangelist," now owned by a third-party, where it continued efforts to promote the Mac as a religion while urging users to become "evangelists" for the company.

Finally, "PDL" is absolutely correct to say "some (most)" Mac users are smug. You cannot honestly deny that a good number of Mac users do seem to love cocking their noses up in the air at PC users while claiming the Mac, Mac OS, or whatever Mac, is superior in some (every) way. One can find examples of this in just about every (Mac, PC, other) newsgroup or forum one choses to visit. Of course, most of those claims are patently false, but that doesn't stop these individuals from from sticking their noses up in the air at every opportunity and repeating the rhetoric anyway. And when some PC user, tired of the endless rhetoric, finally comes along to disagree with those claims, he's immediately accused of bashing Apple, the Mac, Mac users, mom & apple pie, or whatever. Hogwash!

stewart

[stewart_photo]

Can you run Mac or it's apps on a PC?

This is a strawman. Why would anyone even want to run Mac OS or software on a PC? There are at least a half dozen PC solutions for every Mac specific application or hardware device. However, it's not at all hard to find things for the PC that won't work with the Mac - even using Boot Camp.

on the Mac I don't need to load drivers.

Another strawman. Like the Mac, Windows also comes with built-in drivers for USB, FireWire, Ethernet, and similar devices. No drivers are required for either OS when using these devices. However, users of either OS will have to install drivers to access any unique features of these devices. Likewise, drivers are required with both operating systems for any hardware devices (video cards, sound cards, etc) installed inside the computer. In reality, there is virtually no difference between to the Mac and Windows when it comes to drivers.

stewart

[stewart_photo]

Yeah, we should definitely smash the smaller players in larger markets. Companies like, well Pentax. Darn things only take Pentax lenses! Talk about hardware limitations. And their market share is too small, they should be shut down.

You've repeatedly tried to relate the Mac to Pentax, but the analogy just doesn't work. Pentax users aren't generally running around all over the internet claiming the Pentax is more intuitive, cleaner, faster, more stable, gives FAR less problems, or whatever, than the Canon or Nikon competition. Pentax users aren't going around shouting "Buy A Pentax" vertually everytime a user of another camera brand asks for help with a problem. In other words, Pentax users don't generally go around inviting conflict and then complaining when they get that. Remember PDL's comment about smugness. That's ultimately the big difference.

stewart

[mph]

In other words, Pentax users don't generally go around inviting conflict and then complaining when they get that.

Who's inviting conflict in this thread? The guy asks a reasonable question--what raw converters are available--and the first two responses contain anti-Mac trolling. That's rude and unhelpful. It doesn't matter if there are legions of obnoxious Mac zealots on teh Intarweb--that's no reason to drag this question into that cesspool.

"I plan to buy a Honda Civic. Can anyone suggest a reputable local dealer?"
"Be careful not to turn into a ricer!"

"My wife and I are planning a trip to Paris. Anyone know a good hotel?"
"Don't turn into a cheese-eating surrender monkey while you're there!"

"I've decided to take up running. What factors should I consider when buying shoes?"
"Runners are arrogant jerks who think everyone else is a lazy slob."

[Groucho]

It is true that Apple designs most of what goes into a Mac, that's why there are less compatibility issues. Limited hardware choices? I can plug any device into my Mac and it works right away, no drivers for most of them.

I believe that when we talk about such things, we're talking about the option of running on different hardware, not what Apple wants to sell. Someone building a PC has a choice of a wide variety of cases, processors, memory types and speeds, video cards, audio cards, controllers for various devices, etc, to choose from, and of course, a variety of OS choices as well.

Not just the ability to plug in a USB or firewire device, and I'm sure there are plenty of USB devices with no Mac drivers.

[davemdsn]

This is a strawman. Why would anyone even want to run Mac OS or software on a PC? There are at least a half dozen PC solutions for every Mac specific application or hardware device. However, it's not at all hard to find things for the PC that won't work with the Mac - even using Boot Camp.
stewart

If these solutions worked I would agree. I switched to Mac because most of the solutions don't work. You have different people designing different parts of your computer and what goes into it and they all work on their own idea of how it should work. When all is said and done half of the stuff I tried to do with my PCs (adding different software/hardware, repair utilities, etc) didn't work.

Another strawman. Like the Mac, Windows also comes with built-in drivers for USB, FireWire, Ethernet, and similar devices. No drivers are required for either OS when using these devices. However, users of either OS will have to install drivers to access any unique features of these devices. Likewise, drivers are required with both operating systems for any hardware devices (video cards, sound cards, etc) installed inside the computer. In reality, there is virtually no difference between to the Mac and Windows when it comes to drivers.
stewart

Then why is it that when I plugged my HP external DVD Lightscribe drive into my HP computer it asked for a disc? When I plugged the same drive into my Mac it worked with no questions asked.

As far as Mac users saying that it is a cleaner, more intuitive, faster system..... I have been using both side by side for a few weeks. I can barely stand to look at the PCs anymore. My wife hasn't even touched the Mac yet, just looking over my shoulder and not hearing me swear at software/hardware that doesn't work has her convinced to convert the whole house. Not my fault it actually works as promised. I have bought 5 computers in the last 5 years and this is the first one that I haven't wanted to throw from a moving car.

[davemdsn]

My comparison of Mac to Pentax is that they are both underdog companies in a market where they are way overshadowed by another player. When I shoot weddings people make comments about my decission to shoot Pentax. I am proud to shoot Pentax and defend my decission when needed. I get to this forum and people are being questioned for their decission to use Mac. We of all people should know that there is no one system that works perfectly for everyone. We of all people should not knock other people's decissions.

I think it is time for me to check out of the Pentax Forum. This place is headed the direction of DPReview.

[stewart_photo]

(snip) The guy asks a reasonable question--what raw converters are available--and the first two responses contain anti-Mac trolling. That's rude and unhelpful.

Actually, the first one was helpful by directly answering his question - "Bibble make versions for Windows, Mac and Linux." The second addressed the concept of switching computer platforms. In other words, both responses were related to things raised in the original message.

The second gave his reasons for the switch from the Mac to a PC. While perhaps you'd like him to be quiet about the reasons to do that (switch from Mac to PC), he has as much of a right to give his reasons as the individual posting the first message (him wanting a Mac for a while and his joking comment about his wife trying to change him).

In any forum discussing computer hardware and software, the "Mac versus PC" debate is going to appear occasionally. So far, this one has remained rather civil, unless one identifies himself or herself with those described as fanatics, evangelists, boring, and/or smug.

stewart

[stewart_photo]

(snip) Then why is it that when I plugged my HP external DVD Lightscribe drive into my HP computer it asked for a disc? (snip)

HP has had all kinds of problems with their Lightscribe drives. Read the reviews for these drives as just two examples of that...

Amazon.com: HP 16X DVD±RW Dual-Layer LightScribe External Hard Drive ( DVD640RE ): Electronics

Amazon.com: HP Dvd 740WE LightScribe External DVD Burner USB 2.0: Electronics

Note the various comments about the computer not properly recognizing the drives. This is a screwup by a single company which could just as easily occur on the Mac as on the PC. It shouldn't be used as an indictment of an entire operating system. Otherwise, I could use the time a new external hard drive took down my entire Mac to do the same to the Mac OS.

(snip) If these solutions worked I would agree. I switched to Mac because most of the solutions don't work. (snip) I can barely stand to look at the PCs anymore. (snip) not hearing me swear at software/hardware that doesn't work (snip) I have bought 5 computers in the last 5 years and this is the first one that I haven't wanted to throw from a moving car.

If PC's are as bad as you and others describe (not working, endlessly crashing, endless hardware problems, software problems, driver problems, viruses, and so on), it's a complete mystery to me how all those PC users could ever get anything done. Of course, many millions world-wide are getting things done on a PC every single day, which suggest someone isn't exactly telling the whole story here. And the fact that those PC users range in age from fairly young children to grandparents and much older suggests the PC isn't as untidy and unintuitive as some describe either.

stewart