If you were just starting, what PP program would you get?

WMBP · 04-27-2010, 05:14 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by noahpurdy

1. Don't buy Photoshop first, buy workflow software: Adobe Lightroom or Apple Aperture 3. Buy Photoshop when you finally need it.
2. Buy Lightroom, Aperture, or Photoshop. Because if you don't you will end up buying them anyways.

Leaving aside that there is something vaguely contradictory (or at least paradoxical) about this advice (don't buy Photoshop - but DO buy Photoshop), I still have to disagree.

Not everybody needs Lightroom or Aperture or Photoshop. EVER. I have been making a growing amount of my income every year for the last 4 years and I don't own CS4 or whatever it is. I do have Photoshop Elements, but I launch it only very rarely. I use Lightroom for 98% of my work, and I do think it's terrific. But I use Lightroom mainly because it's so good at helping me edit the hundreds of images I bring home from a wedding or a day shooting portraits. If I weren't dealing with so many images, I'd be much happier using, oh, Photoshop Elements, or ACDSee Pro 3, or SilkyPix Studio, or something else. I have no plans to buy the full version of Photoshop, not soon, not ever.

As has been said by many others, the only way to know is to try different programs and figure out what works for you. How many photos do you take? What do you need to do with them? How much time do you want to spend at the computer? What program's user interface makes you happy? You just have to try them—use those free demos!—and figure it out.

Will

noahpurdy · 04-27-2010, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by WMBP

Leaving aside that there is something vaguely contradictory (or at least paradoxical) about this advice (don't buy Photoshop - but DO buy Photoshop), I still have to disagree.

Not everybody needs Lightroom or Aperture or Photoshop. EVER. I have been making a growing amount of my income every year for the last 4 years and I don't own CS4 or whatever it is. I do have Photoshop Elements, but I launch it only very rarely. I use Lightroom for 98% of my work, and I do think it's terrific. But I use Lightroom mainly because it's so good at helping me edit the hundreds of images I bring home from a wedding or a day shooting portraits. If I weren't dealing with so many images, I'd be much happier using, oh, Photoshop Elements, or ACDSee Pro 3, or SilkyPix Studio, or something else. I have no plans to buy the full version of Photoshop, not soon, not ever.

As has been said by many others, the only way to know is to try different programs and figure out what works for you. How many photos do you take? What do you need to do with them? How much time do you want to spend at the computer? What program's user interface makes you happy? You just have to try them—use those free demos!—and figure it out.

Will

I phrased it oddly. But anyone (even hobbyists) who plan on taking photographs for more than two months of their life can benefit from workflow software and with either Aperture or Lightroom can handle 99% of most everyday editing too. So buy that TYPE of software first and if you're going to edit photos, just save the cash and get Photoshop if for anything to know you'll have the best of the best (capability wise, UI aside).

WMBP · 04-27-2010, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by noahpurdy

I phrased it oddly. But anyone (even hobbyists) who plan on taking photographs for more than two months of their life can benefit from workflow software and with either Aperture or Lightroom can handle 99% of most everyday editing too. So buy that TYPE of software first and if you're going to edit photos, just save the cash and get Photoshop if for anything to know you'll have the best of the best (capability wise, UI aside).

OK, I won't fight about this, except to say that you are a lot more confident than I am that you know what will work for everybody else. :-)

I personally think it's a blessing to have so many different and excellent options.

Will

MrApollinax · 04-27-2010, 07:25 PM

Just to add my $0.02. I agree with everyone that you need to try different software packages and see what works for you. With that said I would say try out LightZone by LightCrafts. They have an excellent free tutorial online at their site. Good luck with your choices.

clmonk · 04-29-2010, 12:52 PM

I am going against the flow here a bit. I would recommend NOT installing the free stuff. My reasoning is this: stick with the hobby for long and you will eventually purchase a more capable product. Virtually EVERY pro I know, have heard of, ever worked with, all use Photoshop. Do YOU need Photoshop?? Absolutely NOT!!! But stick with this long enough and you WILL want it. So buy Elements now. Don't mess around with using this one, and that one, and this other one and clogging up your computer with crud you will not want later. Splurge and spend $60-90 depending on the sale, and learn a single command set, learn it once, and even if you later move up to PS8 or PS12 you will already know the command set because Elements and PS use the same set of commands for the most part.
Ka-CHING--2 cents expired!

noahpurdy · 04-29-2010, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by clmonk

I am going against the flow here a bit. I would recommend NOT installing the free stuff. My reasoning is this: stick with the hobby for long and you will eventually purchase a more capable product. Virtually EVERY pro I know, have heard of, ever worked with, all use Photoshop. Do YOU need Photoshop?? Absolutely NOT!!! But stick with this long enough and you WILL want it. So buy Elements now. Don't mess around with using this one, and that one, and this other one and clogging up your computer with crud you will not want later. Splurge and spend $60-90 depending on the sale, and learn a single command set, learn it once, and even if you later move up to PS8 or PS12 you will already know the command set because Elements and PS use the same set of commands for the most part.
Ka-CHING--2 cents expired!

^A bit less dogmatic than me, but the same idea is there.

**rparmar** · 04-29-2010, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by clmonk

Don't mess around with using this one, and that one, and this other one and clogging up your computer with crud you will not want later.

Gimp is not crud. Last time I checked it could do just about anything.

Originally posted by clmonk

Splurge and spend $60-90 depending on the sale, and learn a single command set, learn it once, and even if you later move up to PS8 or PS12 you will already know the command set because Elements and PS use the same set of commands for the most part.

So you're recommending 90 bucks now and 900 bucks later? Not everyone can afford that. But sure, if you are a professional there are advantages to using the same tool everyone else uses. But I'd say if you applied the same thinking to your camera system, you would not be using Pentax.

noahpurdy · 05-01-2010, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

But I'd say if you applied the same thinking to your camera system, you would not be using Pentax.

Au contraire! As someone planning on skipping 135 format entirely for a medium format who takes pictures and only dabbles in video, a Pentax DSLR with limited primes IS in fact the best camera for me at the moment.

Brand recognition and quality are not mutually exclusive.

clmonk · 05-03-2010, 08:30 AM

rparmar wrote: Gimp is not crud. Last time I checked it could do just about anything.

Originally posted by clmonk

Splurge and spend $60-90 depending on the sale, and learn a single command set, learn it once, and even if you later move up to PS8 or PS12 you will already know the command set because Elements and PS use the same set of commands for the most part.

So you're recommending 90 bucks now and 900 bucks later? Not everyone can afford that. But sure, if you are a professional there are advantages to using the same tool everyone else uses. But I'd say if you applied the same thinking to your camera system, you would not be using Pentax.

You are indeed correct that GIMP is not crud. I did not intend for you to think I said that. Here is what I meant: When anyone loads a program and then removes a program usually that program does not uninstall as cleanly as one would have liked, and it leaves a bit of "crud" behind when it is uninstalled. Do this four or five times with different programs and soon your computer can get confused. (To say nothing of how confused the user is by trying to learn 4 or 5 different ways to do common editing tasks!)
Additionally, I am not recommending $900 later. I specifically said, IF you later move up... I have both Elements and CS loaded on my machine and I rarely use PSCS because Elements does 95% of what I need to do. I would NEVER recommend CS to anyone until they absolutely cannot do what they want using Elements. (BTW I hope it never actually gets anywhere near $900!!! YIKES

)

**rparmar** · 05-03-2010, 09:57 AM

Thanks for the clarification! However I think you are fine uninstalling apps even up to hundreds of times. I ran a Windows XP computer for 8 years without never once reinstalling the OS. I think I tried about 1000 programmes on it. If you need to, there are registry cleaners and disk cleaners that pickup stay bits and zap them.

Sorry to say, but Photoshop is "discounted" to €823 here in Ireland. :-(

clmonk · 05-03-2010, 10:50 AM

But the OP is in Washington State, not in Ireland. And CS5 there retails for $700 brand new (from Adobe) or $199 for an upgrade. (BTW isn't it interesting that!!! I can buy Elements 8 for $70 and then upgrade to CS5 for $199; OR I can buy CS5 outright and pay more than twice as much???!!!)
I will take your word that your machine didn't roll over and die after 1,000 installs and uninstalls. (One would curiously ask why anyone would do this, but not my business.) But on a regular basis I FDISK and reinstall and I note that my machine is MUCH faster each time I take this precaution.
But the main point of my post was this: Purchase and install the most capable software once. In my opinion (and I KNOW others will vary) Elements is that software. if for no other reason than getting answers to commonly asked questions. Post a question on this forum--or any other for that matter--about how to do something in Elements/PS and you will get immediate responses from numerous people. Ask that same question in regard to ACDSee, Bibble, GIMP, etc. and see how many responses and how quickly you receive them. I'm just saying...

fotaki · 05-03-2010, 12:22 PM

While the lads are arguing about the heavy stuff, I'll sneak in and give a second mention for FastStone FastStone Image Viewer - Powerful and Intuitive Photo Viewer, Editor and Batch Converter . It's free, covers all the basic pp operations + a few surprises and handles RAW really well.

IMO pp in photography is a personal thing. That's the reason it draws such heated discussion. Why not try a few free programs to start - you won't lose anything!

**rparmar** · 05-03-2010, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by clmonk

But the OP is in Washington State, not in Ireland. And CS5 there retails for $700 brand new (from Adobe) or $199 for an upgrade.

Well, I originally said $900 which was what I recalled from N.America. If the truth is closer to $700 that does not change the fact we are comparing it to $0 for Gimp.

Originally posted by clmonk

I will take your word that your machine didn't roll over and die after 1,000 installs and uninstalls. (One would curiously ask why anyone would do this, but not my business.)

During that time I was testing and using many applications in the following domains: business software, audio apps, video, media creation, programming, graphics, general utilities. And even games. 1000 is a guess but who knows? Sometimes one given OSS package might have 5 or more dependencies. I am sure there were some individual days when I installed 30 packages.

Wiping the disk was always too much work since I'd have to reinstall about 50-100 apps and utilities I used (semi-) regularly.

You'll be happy to know I have simplified things since.

05-03-2010, 08:30 AM	#24
clmonk Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Eastern TN Posts: 269	rparmar wrote: Gimp is not crud. Last time I checked it could do just about anything. Originally posted by clmonk Splurge and spend $60-90 depending on the sale, and learn a single command set, learn it once, and even if you later move up to PS8 or PS12 you will already know the command set because Elements and PS use the same set of commands for the most part. So you're recommending 90 bucks now and 900 bucks later? Not everyone can afford that. But sure, if you are a professional there are advantages to using the same tool everyone else uses. But I'd say if you applied the same thinking to your camera system, you would not be using Pentax. You are indeed correct that GIMP is not crud. I did not intend for you to think I said that. Here is what I meant: When anyone loads a program and then removes a program usually that program does not uninstall as cleanly as one would have liked, and it leaves a bit of "crud" behind when it is uninstalled. Do this four or five times with different programs and soon your computer can get confused. (To say nothing of how confused the user is by trying to learn 4 or 5 different ways to do common editing tasks!) Additionally, I am not recommending $900 later. I specifically said, IF you later move up... I have both Elements and CS loaded on my machine and I rarely use PSCS because Elements does 95% of what I need to do. I would NEVER recommend CS to anyone until they absolutely cannot do what they want using Elements. (BTW I hope it never actually gets anywhere near $900!!! YIKES)

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04-27-2010, 05:14 PM - 1 Like	#16
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by noahpurdy 1. Don't buy Photoshop first, buy workflow software: Adobe Lightroom or Apple Aperture 3. Buy Photoshop when you finally need it. 2. Buy Lightroom, Aperture, or Photoshop. Because if you don't you will end up buying them anyways. Leaving aside that there is something vaguely contradictory (or at least paradoxical) about this advice (don't buy Photoshop - but DO buy Photoshop), I still have to disagree. Not everybody needs Lightroom or Aperture or Photoshop. EVER. I have been making a growing amount of my income every year for the last 4 years and I don't own CS4 or whatever it is. I do have Photoshop Elements, but I launch it only very rarely. I use Lightroom for 98% of my work, and I do think it's terrific. But I use Lightroom mainly because it's so good at helping me edit the hundreds of images I bring home from a wedding or a day shooting portraits. If I weren't dealing with so many images, I'd be much happier using, oh, Photoshop Elements, or ACDSee Pro 3, or SilkyPix Studio, or something else. I have no plans to buy the full version of Photoshop, not soon, not ever. As has been said by many others, the only way to know is to try different programs and figure out what works for you. How many photos do you take? What do you need to do with them? How much time do you want to spend at the computer? What program's user interface makes you happy? You just have to try them—use those free demos!—and figure it out. Will

04-27-2010, 05:22 PM	#17
noahpurdy Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 479	Originally posted by WMBP Leaving aside that there is something vaguely contradictory (or at least paradoxical) about this advice (don't buy Photoshop - but DO buy Photoshop), I still have to disagree. Not everybody needs Lightroom or Aperture or Photoshop. EVER. I have been making a growing amount of my income every year for the last 4 years and I don't own CS4 or whatever it is. I do have Photoshop Elements, but I launch it only very rarely. I use Lightroom for 98% of my work, and I do think it's terrific. But I use Lightroom mainly because it's so good at helping me edit the hundreds of images I bring home from a wedding or a day shooting portraits. If I weren't dealing with so many images, I'd be much happier using, oh, Photoshop Elements, or ACDSee Pro 3, or SilkyPix Studio, or something else. I have no plans to buy the full version of Photoshop, not soon, not ever. As has been said by many others, the only way to know is to try different programs and figure out what works for you. How many photos do you take? What do you need to do with them? How much time do you want to spend at the computer? What program's user interface makes you happy? You just have to try them—use those free demos!—and figure it out. Will I phrased it oddly. But anyone (even hobbyists) who plan on taking photographs for more than two months of their life can benefit from workflow software and with either Aperture or Lightroom can handle 99% of most everyday editing too. So buy that TYPE of software first and if you're going to edit photos, just save the cash and get Photoshop if for anything to know you'll have the best of the best (capability wise, UI aside).

04-27-2010, 07:19 PM	#18
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by noahpurdy I phrased it oddly. But anyone (even hobbyists) who plan on taking photographs for more than two months of their life can benefit from workflow software and with either Aperture or Lightroom can handle 99% of most everyday editing too. So buy that TYPE of software first and if you're going to edit photos, just save the cash and get Photoshop if for anything to know you'll have the best of the best (capability wise, UI aside). OK, I won't fight about this, except to say that you are a lot more confident than I am that you know what will work for everybody else. :-) I personally think it's a blessing to have so many different and excellent options. Will

04-27-2010, 07:25 PM	#19
MrApollinax Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,529	Just to add my $0.02. I agree with everyone that you need to try different software packages and see what works for you. With that said I would say try out LightZone by LightCrafts. They have an excellent free tutorial online at their site. Good luck with your choices.

04-29-2010, 12:52 PM	#20
clmonk Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Eastern TN Posts: 269	I am going against the flow here a bit. I would recommend NOT installing the free stuff. My reasoning is this: stick with the hobby for long and you will eventually purchase a more capable product. Virtually EVERY pro I know, have heard of, ever worked with, all use Photoshop. Do YOU need Photoshop?? Absolutely NOT!!! But stick with this long enough and you WILL want it. So buy Elements now. Don't mess around with using this one, and that one, and this other one and clogging up your computer with crud you will not want later. Splurge and spend $60-90 depending on the sale, and learn a single command set, learn it once, and even if you later move up to PS8 or PS12 you will already know the command set because Elements and PS use the same set of commands for the most part. Ka-CHING--2 cents expired!

04-29-2010, 02:10 PM	#21
noahpurdy Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 479	Originally posted by clmonk I am going against the flow here a bit. I would recommend NOT installing the free stuff. My reasoning is this: stick with the hobby for long and you will eventually purchase a more capable product. Virtually EVERY pro I know, have heard of, ever worked with, all use Photoshop. Do YOU need Photoshop?? Absolutely NOT!!! But stick with this long enough and you WILL want it. So buy Elements now. Don't mess around with using this one, and that one, and this other one and clogging up your computer with crud you will not want later. Splurge and spend $60-90 depending on the sale, and learn a single command set, learn it once, and even if you later move up to PS8 or PS12 you will already know the command set because Elements and PS use the same set of commands for the most part. Ka-CHING--2 cents expired! ^A bit less dogmatic than me, but the same idea is there.

04-29-2010, 02:17 PM	#22
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Originally posted by clmonk Don't mess around with using this one, and that one, and this other one and clogging up your computer with crud you will not want later. Gimp is not crud. Last time I checked it could do just about anything. Originally posted by clmonk Splurge and spend $60-90 depending on the sale, and learn a single command set, learn it once, and even if you later move up to PS8 or PS12 you will already know the command set because Elements and PS use the same set of commands for the most part. So you're recommending 90 bucks now and 900 bucks later? Not everyone can afford that. But sure, if you are a professional there are advantages to using the same tool everyone else uses. But I'd say if you applied the same thinking to your camera system, you would not be using Pentax.

05-01-2010, 10:47 PM	#23
noahpurdy Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 479	Originally posted by rparmar But I'd say if you applied the same thinking to your camera system, you would not be using Pentax. Au contraire! As someone planning on skipping 135 format entirely for a medium format who takes pictures and only dabbles in video, a Pentax DSLR with limited primes IS in fact the best camera for me at the moment. Brand recognition and quality are not mutually exclusive.

05-03-2010, 09:57 AM	#25
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Thanks for the clarification! However I think you are fine uninstalling apps even up to hundreds of times. I ran a Windows XP computer for 8 years without never once reinstalling the OS. I think I tried about 1000 programmes on it. If you need to, there are registry cleaners and disk cleaners that pickup stay bits and zap them. Sorry to say, but Photoshop is "discounted" to €823 here in Ireland. :-(

05-03-2010, 10:50 AM	#26
clmonk Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Eastern TN Posts: 269	But the OP is in Washington State, not in Ireland. And CS5 there retails for $700 brand new (from Adobe) or $199 for an upgrade. (BTW isn't it interesting that!!! I can buy Elements 8 for $70 and then upgrade to CS5 for $199; OR I can buy CS5 outright and pay more than twice as much???!!!) I will take your word that your machine didn't roll over and die after 1,000 installs and uninstalls. (One would curiously ask why anyone would do this, but not my business.) But on a regular basis I FDISK and reinstall and I note that my machine is MUCH faster each time I take this precaution. But the main point of my post was this: Purchase and install the most capable software once. In my opinion (and I KNOW others will vary) Elements is that software. if for no other reason than getting answers to commonly asked questions. Post a question on this forum--or any other for that matter--about how to do something in Elements/PS and you will get immediate responses from numerous people. Ask that same question in regard to ACDSee, Bibble, GIMP, etc. and see how many responses and how quickly you receive them. I'm just saying...

05-03-2010, 12:22 PM	#27
fotaki Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Greece and UK Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 309	While the lads are arguing about the heavy stuff, I'll sneak in and give a second mention for FastStone FastStone Image Viewer - Powerful and Intuitive Photo Viewer, Editor and Batch Converter . It's free, covers all the basic pp operations + a few surprises and handles RAW really well. IMO pp in photography is a personal thing. That's the reason it draws such heated discussion. Why not try a few free programs to start - you won't lose anything!

05-03-2010, 03:14 PM	#28
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Originally posted by clmonk But the OP is in Washington State, not in Ireland. And CS5 there retails for $700 brand new (from Adobe) or $199 for an upgrade. Well, I originally said $900 which was what I recalled from N.America. If the truth is closer to $700 that does not change the fact we are comparing it to $0 for Gimp. Originally posted by clmonk I will take your word that your machine didn't roll over and die after 1,000 installs and uninstalls. (One would curiously ask why anyone would do this, but not my business.) During that time I was testing and using many applications in the following domains: business software, audio apps, video, media creation, programming, graphics, general utilities. And even games. 1000 is a guess but who knows? Sometimes one given OSS package might have 5 or more dependencies. I am sure there were some individual days when I installed 30 packages. Wiping the disk was always too much work since I'd have to reinstall about 50-100 apps and utilities I used (semi-) regularly. You'll be happy to know I have simplified things since.