[dugrant153]

I shoot a lot of events in reaaaallly dark venues (ISO800 absolute minimum usually) and I find myself pushing the ISO of my images quite high to get about 1/30th shutter speed. My first response was to buy fast lenses (which I love, also for depth of field control), which helped keep the ISO down... but now I'm looking at the wider angle of things and it seems that anything 28mm and below will be around F2.8 but no wider. Especially when it comes to UWA lenses (16mm, 15mm, 21mm kinda).

Soooo I did some pondering and realized that the lenses I want are not available (20MM F1.8) for Pentax and even if they did exist, they would be very expensive.

I already have a DA21 F3.2 which does a good job, but in low light, I usually end up having to push 1600 ISO and higher and that brings in way more noise than is comfortable.... and probably printable too.

Then I got to thinking - why don`t I buy noise reduction software instead and "make" my DA21 F3.2 a low light shooter?

For low light (natural light) shooters, curious on your thoughts and whether you`ve gone this route? I've tried the route of flash and use it sometimes when I'm in a bind (mainly for formal portraits if no lighting is available), but I much prefer natural light.

[VaughnA]

I think you should have noise reduction software either way. I use DFine for most of my uses. I went the new body route and changed from a K20D to a K-x. I got 1-2 stops better results with all my lenses. I don't regret the decision. If you're using an older body I think that you could get a K-x body for less than the lenses and get another 2 stops on everything compared to what you have now. And have either a spare body for normal light or sell the current body to buy more glass which is what I did;-).

[hangu]

Lightroom 3 Beta offers amazing noise reduction control, better than Noise Ninja. You should check that out if you haven't yet.

I've never used the K100D but the K-x lets me shoot at ISO 3200 without significant noise. Check the high ISO galleries. I shoot ISO 1600 about 70% of the time these days. I've got a few photos at 12800 ISO that are actually quite decent in terms of noise.

With UWA lenses, you should be able to use 1/20 shutter speed handheld. The only problem is if the subjects are moving fast.

Consider purchasing a monopod for even slower shutter speeds or a ring flash for less harsh images.

I'm confused about your aversion to flash. If you're shooting at dark venues, chances are there isn't any natural light to begin with, so your preference of natural light is moot. I don't see how available incandescent lighting is any better than flash. Have you considered a diffuser for the flash or reading up on techniques to bounce flash?

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[dugrant153]

Oh, as a headsup, I use a K-7 and a K20D. Both are pretty good until about ISO 1000 or so, then it kinda goes down from there in very low light. I liked the idea of a K-x but not being able to see my selective focus points was a killer for me... hence the K-7.

I just did some research on Topaz Labs Noise software and it looks to be my ticket!
Lightroom 3 NR sounds pretty awesome so I will definitely have to check that out as well, although I currently use LR2 and am thinking buying Topaz would be cheaper.

My problem is not so much getting stable shots in low light (thanks to Pentax SR), it's getting shots without too much subject movement blur. I've tried a monopod and it's great but very clunky for the way that I work and the shots that I take - and also doesn't solve the movement blur problem.

I will take out the flash gun if the situation calls for it (absolutely no light and/or can't see the subject's faces and they want a group or a couple shot). Otherwise I try to move the subject to better light. However, if I'm just observing, I prefer not to have a flash gun firing all the time (or at all), especially with the photojouralistic shots.

I've been to too many events and weddings where a flash would go off constantly in the dark and it's made for some irritated guests (myself included!). I've looked at different light-softening options but at the moment I'm trying to keep the ambience as much as I can and use what's available. I've used bounced and diffused flash in the past and liked it but my approach and style to photos has changed (way more ambient photojournalistic shots).

[NaClH2O]

I've had similar experiences and have found Noise Ninja to be an excellent product. I use it as a photoshop plug-in so it's always available when I'm post processing.

NaCl( "p-p ing" just sounds so wrong)H2O

[hangu]

The K20D shouldn't be too bad with noise, ISO 1600 should be fairly decent after NR. I wouldn't get a K-x after a K20D and K7 just for the noise performance... unless you're filthy rich!

Believe it or not, the selective focus points aren't really that important, you just need a good focusing screen. The stock one doesn't show DOF very well.

LR3's NR is substantially better than LR2's NR. You can download the beta for free and try it out first. It's still a bit buggy but you can get a good idea of its capabilities. The beta will work until LR3 is officially released.

Download it here:
https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_lightroom3

I personally think people dislike flash because they don't know how to use it in such a way to get the results that they want. I think you can incorporate it into your photojournalistic style.

[Ecaterin]

Soooo I did some pondering and realized that the lenses I want are not available (20MM F1.8) for Pentax and even if they did exist, they would be very expensive.

Actually, this lens does exist, and isn't that expensive (519.00) - Sigma 20mm f/1.8 I'm definitely looking at getting this one, since I also want wide + fast

[slinco]

Here's a link to a fresh review of Topaz DeNoise 4.1. Topaz Labs DeNoise 4.1 Review Sounds like a very good product. The new noise reduction in Adobe Camera Raw 6 works beautifully. And that Sigma 20 1.8 is a nice lens - I used it pretty much exclusively on my Nikon D100 before I got the K7. I used it to shoot a lot of bands in dark nightclubs and it was great for that.

[Marc Sabatella]

Everyone has different tolerance for noise, I guess, but I figure some amount of noise just goes with the territory when shooting low light. You might just be setting your standards unnecessarily high for how much noise you think will make for an acceptable print. I've printed many ISO 1600 images from lesser cameras than the K20D, and they look fine for what they are - certainly at least as good as most comparable images I see published in magazines and so forth.

Of course, I'm not talking about straight-from-the-camera JPEG's - I do some NR on the images. But you don't necessarily need fancy NR software to control it - even LR 2 will do NR if you let it (LR 3 much better, though). Without knowing more about about you are currently processing your images, and without seeing samples, it's hard to say how much room there might be for improvement without spending a penny on anything.

BTW, regarding fast wide angle lenses - my experience is that for the same reasons that you can get away with slower shutter speeds than with longer lenses and still avoid camera shake, you can also get away with slower shutter speeds and still avoid subject motion as well. If a subject is small enough in the frame - as is typically the case shooting wide angles unless you are shooting point blank range - an amount of subject motion that would have led to unacceptable blur at 70mm becomes just fine at 15mm. I routinely shoot my DA15 at f/4 and 1/15" and actually get a higher percentage of "keepers" in terms of lack of subject motion than I do shooting at 1/30" in the normal - short telephoto focal length range.

[mysticcowboy]

NR software isn't a substitute for a fast lens. As Marc says, noise tolerance is a personal thing. I often find a bit of noise preferable to the plastic smoothness of too much noise reduction.

For a fast lens, the Sigma 30mm 1.4 is very nice and reasonably priced, though big compared to Pentax lenses.

Most noise reduction software comes with a trial period, so you can see what you like. I've tried most of them and settled on Nik's one. Milage may vary. As to the NR built into the new Lightroom, if you have the latest Photoshop, CS5, you already have that feature in Adobe Camera Raw. It's the same software engine. Lightroom just puts a nicer interface on it than ACR.

michael mckee
My Port Townsend – A City in Photographs – 365

[newarts]

Get a K-x.

The two extra stops will come in handy.

[dugrant153]

at the moment, most of my lenses are fast... but I just don't have wide angle. (FA31, DA*55, FA77).

as mentioned previously, I really don't like the K-x layout without the focus point confirmation. Also, my eyes have a real tough time manual focusing due to my prescription being so high (or so it seems). I'm like a -6. Otherwise, K-x would've been up there, or I'd have no problem manual focusing all the time.

Just tried Topaz noise reduction and it looks to be pretty awesome!!

[JohnBee]

For low light (natural light) shooters, curious on your thoughts and whether you`ve gone this route? I've tried the route of flash and use it sometimes when I'm in a bind (mainly for formal portraits if no lighting is available), but I much prefer natural light.

My wife and I shot indoor events(no flash allowed) for three years using K20D camera's. Needless to say, we found ourselves operating at the fringe with all of the equipment in order to make ends meet. And lets be honest... up until the Kx came around, this was the name of the game.

Having said that, I'd like to think that a little care and determination, we can do pretty much anything. We even achieved excellent results with a kit lens on a K200D when we started-out. But... like you, we were in pursuit of better Bokeh(to compliment lighting) and DOF effects. So we sought out primes and worked together to cover the angles.

So here's a quick and dirty list of what I've picked-up along the way.

1. For GOD SAKES! shoot raw
2. Keep your WB and exposures tuned at all times.
3. Find your maximum threshold and don't be afraid to use it! (ISO4000 on most K20'S)
4. Get a good splitscreen(to hell with Pentax AF in low light, it's too unreliable), and if you can afford it, get a Katzeye with optibright(it matters)!
5. Get your PP method down - you're post is right on the money! you can do miracles with a good NR method and it's definitely worth learning.

EXAMPLES: (processed for full size)

Tools used:

• Adobe Camera RAW/ PS CS5
  GordonB's Magenta Cast remover
  Niksoft Define - (for debanding)
  Topaz Denoise 4

ISO6400

IS3200

ISO4000

ISO4000

ISO3200

CROP

ISO6400

CROP

ISO6400

The end...

[ivoire]

Topaz Denoise 4 gets my vote along with JohnBees advice:

"1. For GOD SAKES! shoot raw
2. Keep your WB and exposures tuned at all times.
3. Find your maximum threshold and don't be afraid to use it! (ISO4000 on most K20'S)
4. Get a good splitscreen(to hell with Pentax AF in low light, it's too unreliable), and if you can afford it, get a Katzeye with optibright(it matters)!
5. Get your PP method down - you're post is right on the money! you can do miracles with a good NR method and it's definitely worth learning."