Help!K10D baseball@sundown with old lenses

neverbnnba · 07-08-2010, 07:51 PM

What settings should I tweek or mods should I use for low light baseball on a K-10D with old lenses? The lenses i have are Takumar 85-210 4.5, Vivitar 100-300mm 5.6, Pentax 80-200mm 4-5.6. Tonight i used the vivtar but the auto aperature was making everything blown out, way to bright. So just shot full analog from that point on. Is there an adjustment i can make to help the auto ap? I'll post a link of photos for you to analyze in a few minutes.. Thanks guys!

Marc Sabatella · 07-08-2010, 07:56 PM

It really isn't clear if your issue relates to your camera, your lenses, or your technique, or how experienced you are, but I'm thinking either the General Photography or the Beginner's forum would be more appropriate here. Without assuming anything about your experience level, I think General Photography is the safe choice, so I'm moving this thread there.

neverbnnba · 07-08-2010, 08:20 PM

Here's what the auto-aperture was getting me, I'm certain i should have changed some settings but this is my first time out with the K10d and i need help! Flickr: NickWeiler's Photostream

neverbnnba · 07-08-2010, 08:20 PM

probably technique this is my first time out with this body and it's totally different from the k-x i'm used to.

Marc Sabatella · 07-08-2010, 08:37 PM

Two real huge and obvious problems right off the bat:

1) you used spot metering, but were you careful to meter off something you knew was 18% gray?

2) you had +1.3 EV compensation dialed in

Those things combined pretty much guarantee you'll get crazy bad exposures.

neverbnnba · 07-09-2010, 05:38 AM

Thanks Marc, I didn't realize I had done either of those things, I guess the 1.3 was still dialed in from the last time the previous owner used it and I didn't even check it! dialing in on gray, also didn't dawn on me, makes sense now but on the fly I was thinking of so many other things like FOCUS FAST FOCUS FAST FOCUS FAST with you manual lens! Thanks man! Is there a good pentax course I can take for sports?

Marc Sabatella · 07-09-2010, 10:19 AM

I don't know, but photography is photography for the mpost part - the concepts are independent of camera. Spot metering is a *terrible* way to shoot *unless* you know exactly what you are doing, and that's true for all cameras, including your K-x as well as your K10D. And exposure compensation works exactly the same way on all cameras, including your K-x as well as your K10D. The specific buttons to push in order to *use* spot metering or exposure compensation might differ, but step on is figuring out what these are and how to use them. Once you've got thst donw, it's trivial to look up the buttons in the manual to find out how to do it on your camera.

So as I often do, I recommend a trip to your local bookstoreor lbrary and get a good basic book on photography - whatever they have that looks good will be fine. You just need to learn these basic concepts.

**Lowell Goudge** · 07-09-2010, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

I don't know, but photography is photography for the mpost part - the concepts are independent of camera. Spot metering is a *terrible* way to shoot *unless* you know exactly what you are doing, and that's true for all cameras, including your K-x as well as your K10D. And exposure compensation works exactly the same way on all cameras, including your K-x as well as your K10D. The specific buttons to push in order to *use* spot metering or exposure compensation might differ, but step on is figuring out what these are and how to use them. Once you've got thst donw, it's trivial to look up the buttons in the manual to find out how to do it on your camera.

So as I often do, I recommend a trip to your local bookstoreor lbrary and get a good basic book on photography - whatever they have that looks good will be fine. You just need to learn these basic concepts.

one thing to be careful of, at least specifically with the K10D is that exposure compensation DOES NOT WORK in manual mode.

other than that, the only thing I can think of is that again related to the K10D, the exposure is a little inconsistent with green button metering, over exposing by a stop or two beyond F5.6 but under exposing below F4.

Marc Sabatella · 07-09-2010, 03:20 PM

With manual lenses, yes, expect some inconsistency. The posted examples actually were *not* taken with manual lenses - at least, not according to the EXIF.

**Lowell Goudge** · 07-09-2010, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

With manual lenses, yes, expect some inconsistency. The posted examples actually were *not* taken with manual lenses - at least, not according to the EXIF.

then what is the purpose of the post?

"Help!K10D baseball@sundown with old lenses"

it seems that the OP had some intent, althoug I would agree if all the lenses are simply KA or newer, then the +1.3ev comp in the exif is probably the issue

Marc Sabatella · 07-10-2010, 02:16 PM

I'm confused too. But the EXIF reports an aperture of f/8, which in turn suggests this was not a manual lens. Presumably he gets inconsistent results with manual lenses too, spot metering without knowing exactly what you are doing combined with +1.3EV is pretty much guaranteed to produce bad results no matter what lens you use. I figure, once that gets sorted out, then we can work on optimizing exposure technique with manual lenses.

reeftool · 07-10-2010, 06:42 PM

Whether an old lens or newer lens is used, the exposure is going to be the same unless I'm missing something. The camera may meter a little differently with an older manual lens but that is easy enough to adjust simply by looking at the shot on the screen and the histogram. A minimum shutter speed of 1/125 is needed and faster is better. I took a quick look at my keepers from a night game at Fenway a couple of years ago. I used a Sigma 70-300 f 4-5.6 which has similar specs to the lenses the OP listed. All were at ISO 800 or 1600 and shot in Tv with shutter speeds of 1/125 and 1/250. I kept my zoom at around 200mm which allowed me to shoot af f4.5 (wide open). Extending to 300mm will stick me with f/5.6 and a slower shutter, not good for baseball action. I got very good crops from the right field bleachers, hand held. Hope this is helpful.

**Lowell Goudge** · 07-10-2010, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by reeftool

Whether an old lens or newer lens is used, the exposure is going to be the same unless I'm missing something.

actually yes you are missing something.

I went through a lot of effort figuring it out, and this is especially true on the K10D and K20D but also true to a lesser extent on other bodies like the K7D.

The newer finish focusing screens seem to send light back to the metering sensor differently than the oldest cameras like the *istD. It seems, from testing to be related to the aperture of the lens, and is very non linear.

Although I have measured the impact in the past, and posted the different performance of the *istD, K10D, K7D, and the K10D with both split image and *istD focusing screens, I can only speculate on how this is managed by pentax.

What I suspect is that pentax (and probably nikon and canon as well) know the perfromance of the metering at different apertures and because the electrical contacts tell them what the wide open aperture is, they can compensate for it. when they don't know, they get it wrong.

here is the performance I measured, with my 3 bodies and the exact same lens.

07-08-2010, 07:51 PM	#1
neverbnnba New Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Photos: Albums Posts: 24	Help!K10D baseball@sundown with old lenses What settings should I tweek or mods should I use for low light baseball on a K-10D with old lenses? The lenses i have are Takumar 85-210 4.5, Vivitar 100-300mm 5.6, Pentax 80-200mm 4-5.6. Tonight i used the vivtar but the auto aperature was making everything blown out, way to bright. So just shot full analog from that point on. Is there an adjustment i can make to help the auto ap? I'll post a link of photos for you to analyze in a few minutes.. Thanks guys!

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07-08-2010, 07:56 PM	#2
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	It really isn't clear if your issue relates to your camera, your lenses, or your technique, or how experienced you are, but I'm thinking either the General Photography or the Beginner's forum would be more appropriate here. Without assuming anything about your experience level, I think General Photography is the safe choice, so I'm moving this thread there.

07-08-2010, 08:20 PM	#3
neverbnnba New Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Photos: Albums Posts: 24 Original Poster	Here's what the auto-aperture was getting me, I'm certain i should have changed some settings but this is my first time out with the K10d and i need help! Flickr: NickWeiler's Photostream

07-08-2010, 08:37 PM	#5
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Two real huge and obvious problems right off the bat: 1) you used spot metering, but were you careful to meter off something you knew was 18% gray? 2) you had +1.3 EV compensation dialed in Those things combined pretty much guarantee you'll get crazy bad exposures.

07-09-2010, 05:38 AM	#6
neverbnnba New Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Photos: Albums Posts: 24 Original Poster	Thanks Marc, I didn't realize I had done either of those things, I guess the 1.3 was still dialed in from the last time the previous owner used it and I didn't even check it! dialing in on gray, also didn't dawn on me, makes sense now but on the fly I was thinking of so many other things like FOCUS FAST FOCUS FAST FOCUS FAST with you manual lens! Thanks man! Is there a good pentax course I can take for sports?

07-09-2010, 10:19 AM	#7
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	I don't know, but photography is photography for the mpost part - the concepts are independent of camera. Spot metering is a terrible way to shoot unless you know exactly what you are doing, and that's true for all cameras, including your K-x as well as your K10D. And exposure compensation works exactly the same way on all cameras, including your K-x as well as your K10D. The specific buttons to push in order to use spot metering or exposure compensation might differ, but step on is figuring out what these are and how to use them. Once you've got thst donw, it's trivial to look up the buttons in the manual to find out how to do it on your camera. So as I often do, I recommend a trip to your local bookstoreor lbrary and get a good basic book on photography - whatever they have that looks good will be fine. You just need to learn these basic concepts.

07-09-2010, 02:52 PM	#8
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,886	Originally posted by Marc Sabatella I don't know, but photography is photography for the mpost part - the concepts are independent of camera. Spot metering is a terrible way to shoot unless you know exactly what you are doing, and that's true for all cameras, including your K-x as well as your K10D. And exposure compensation works exactly the same way on all cameras, including your K-x as well as your K10D. The specific buttons to push in order to use spot metering or exposure compensation might differ, but step on is figuring out what these are and how to use them. Once you've got thst donw, it's trivial to look up the buttons in the manual to find out how to do it on your camera. So as I often do, I recommend a trip to your local bookstoreor lbrary and get a good basic book on photography - whatever they have that looks good will be fine. You just need to learn these basic concepts. one thing to be careful of, at least specifically with the K10D is that exposure compensation DOES NOT WORK in manual mode. other than that, the only thing I can think of is that again related to the K10D, the exposure is a little inconsistent with green button metering, over exposing by a stop or two beyond F5.6 but under exposing below F4.

07-09-2010, 03:20 PM	#9
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	With manual lenses, yes, expect some inconsistency. The posted examples actually were not taken with manual lenses - at least, not according to the EXIF.

07-09-2010, 03:23 PM	#10
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,886	Originally posted by Marc Sabatella With manual lenses, yes, expect some inconsistency. The posted examples actually were not taken with manual lenses - at least, not according to the EXIF. then what is the purpose of the post? "Help!K10D baseball@sundown with old lenses" it seems that the OP had some intent, althoug I would agree if all the lenses are simply KA or newer, then the +1.3ev comp in the exif is probably the issue

07-10-2010, 02:16 PM	#11
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	I'm confused too. But the EXIF reports an aperture of f/8, which in turn suggests this was not a manual lens. Presumably he gets inconsistent results with manual lenses too, spot metering without knowing exactly what you are doing combined with +1.3EV is pretty much guaranteed to produce bad results no matter what lens you use. I figure, once that gets sorted out, then we can work on optimizing exposure technique with manual lenses.

07-10-2010, 06:42 PM	#12
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,552	Whether an old lens or newer lens is used, the exposure is going to be the same unless I'm missing something. The camera may meter a little differently with an older manual lens but that is easy enough to adjust simply by looking at the shot on the screen and the histogram. A minimum shutter speed of 1/125 is needed and faster is better. I took a quick look at my keepers from a night game at Fenway a couple of years ago. I used a Sigma 70-300 f 4-5.6 which has similar specs to the lenses the OP listed. All were at ISO 800 or 1600 and shot in Tv with shutter speeds of 1/125 and 1/250. I kept my zoom at around 200mm which allowed me to shoot af f4.5 (wide open). Extending to 300mm will stick me with f/5.6 and a slower shutter, not good for baseball action. I got very good crops from the right field bleachers, hand held. Hope this is helpful.

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07-10-2010, 07:16 PM	#13
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,886	Originally posted by reeftool Whether an old lens or newer lens is used, the exposure is going to be the same unless I'm missing something. actually yes you are missing something. I went through a lot of effort figuring it out, and this is especially true on the K10D and K20D but also true to a lesser extent on other bodies like the K7D. The newer finish focusing screens seem to send light back to the metering sensor differently than the oldest cameras like the istD. It seems, from testing to be related to the aperture of the lens, and is very non linear. Although I have measured the impact in the past, and posted the different performance of the istD, K10D, K7D, and the K10D with both split image and *istD focusing screens, I can only speculate on how this is managed by pentax. What I suspect is that pentax (and probably nikon and canon as well) know the perfromance of the metering at different apertures and because the electrical contacts tell them what the wide open aperture is, they can compensate for it. when they don't know, they get it wrong. here is the performance I measured, with my 3 bodies and the exact same lens.