[dadipentak]

I'm tempted to go turn myself in to the DC police. I was part of a Pentaxian mob which ran amok in DC this past December, taking photographs of all manner of things. I see now the error of my ways. I'm afraid it may be necessary that I identify my co-conspirators to the authorities.

[mel]

I'm tempted to go turn myself in to the DC police. I was part of a Pentaxian mob which ran amok in DC this past December, taking photographs of all manner of things. I see now the error of my ways. I'm afraid it may be necessary that I identify my co-conspirators to the authorities.

I have no idea who or what you're talking about

[MRRiley]

We know where you live Dave and if I have to I will put a hit out on your fly fishing gear.

Just sayin'

[MRRiley]

Thanks builttospill... I know we have some other honest-to-goodness Law Enforcement types on the forum. I'd be greatful if you would add your inputs and opinions on this issue as well. Please don't misunderstand my statements regarding police misconduct. I am a big supporter of Law Enforcement but strongly feel that abuse of police powers is athreat to our freedoms which must be addressed strenuously.

Mike

[Lowell Goudge]

Mike / Blue

Without vetting all drawn into the probable cause issues etc. the only point I was getting at is there a correct place to argue rights and probable cause and it is not on the street with the policeman whoay be at fault

Bitching about it in blogs is also not the place. A courtroom is

[johnmflores]

Good grief. We need to have some sort of photographer's flash mob thingy somewhere downtown (in a decidedly non-touristy area just to be obnoxious).

This is a seriously awesome idea. Imagine a cop giving a photographer a hard time, and then one by one people with camera phones, point & shoots and SLRs show up to start photographing. How many people taking photos would it take before the cops throw up their hands or call the National Guard? Could make for some great awareness about the issue...

[Blue]

Mike / Blue

Without vetting all drawn into the probable cause issues etc. the only point I was getting at is there a correct place to argue rights and probable cause and it is not on the street with the policeman whoay be at fault

Bitching about it in blogs is also not the place. A courtroom is

No where did I (or Mike) say get confrontational with police or other law enforcement. However, if you get questioned by police or even security guards, you better be ready to deal with the situation as calmly and succinctly as possible. Discussing this kind of thing is in fact one of the things suggested in the one page print out by Bert Krages (see the link MPrince provided earlier). This is after all an internet forum for photography.

From Krages:

(3) Make the event publicly known on
an Internet forum that deals with photography
or civil rights issues.

Furthermore, I would like to see pressure put on in the correct places so that people don't have to pay attorney's to argue this stuff in court at $800/hr. I consider discussing this things here in these threads as in part being proactive.

[MPrince]

Mike / Blue

Without vetting all drawn into the probable cause issues etc. the only point I was getting at is there a correct place to argue rights and probable cause and it is not on the street with the policeman whoay be at fault

Bitching about it in blogs is also not the place. A courtroom is

Here in the US, we the people are citizens, not subjects. Citizens engaged in activities that are not prohibited by law have the right to be left alone by the government.

It is perfectly legitimate for a police officer to approach and question a photographer on the street, but that officer has no right or authority to hassle a photographer who is not breaking a law or impeding lawful police work.

The photographer has the right to stand up for his rights in such a situation, and the obligation to do so in a peaceful manner.

Freedoms are like muscles. They become useless if not exercised regularly.

[builttospill]

Thanks builttospill... I know we have some other honest-to-goodness Law Enforcement types on the forum. I'd be greatful if you would add your inputs and opinions on this issue as well. Please don't misunderstand my statements regarding police misconduct. I am a big supporter of Law Enforcement but strongly feel that abuse of police powers is athreat to our freedoms which must be addressed strenuously.

Mike

Hey Mike, I understand your statements about police misconduct perfectly. I have some issues with a few officers around here. However, it was a long time ago that I worked as one. I definitely learned some lessons though, and now I currently share an office with five Highway Patrolmen.

My background is PR and I'm all for public education and awareness and enjoy doing it every day in the position I now hold. As a long time photographer I try to take every opportunity I can to educate photographers on their rights and officers, gaurds, etc. on our rights.

[Wheatfield]

Mike / Blue

Without vetting all drawn into the probable cause issues etc. the only point I was getting at is there a correct place to argue rights and probable cause and it is not on the street with the policeman whoay be at fault

Bitching about it in blogs is also not the place. A courtroom is

Complaining about it in a courtroom means that the person must show a willingness to be arrested.
But arrested for what?
You won't get arrested for illegal photography, you will get arrested for contempt of cop, meaning they'll push you until they can arrest you for something.
What these jackasses are counting on is that the average person would rather move on than have the hassle of the arrest.
And eventually, we may as well leave our cameras at home because it will be, for all intents and purposes, illegal to photograph in public.
Britain just spelled out that it is legal to photograph in public, what we are waiting for now is to see if the cops on the street pay attention to the edict.
My guess is they won't.

[builttospill]

My dad and I frequently discuss the rights of a photographer, and this is a little bit of a hot topic for us. A long time ago as a teenager I worked for my dad for a couple years as he makes a living by appraising homes. I can't tell you how often people would report me to the police for photographing their houses. It does look suspicious though, driving up to a house and photographing it from the car, then taking off.

My dad recently told me about a guy who came outside and tried to stop him from driving away until he deleted the images from his camera. This guy started telling my dad about his "rights" and how no one could photograph his house. He then starts taking pictures of my dad's license plate and telling him he's going to call the police. My Dad got out of the car and photographed the license plate of this guy's car in the driveway and told him he would be reported to the police. It threw the guy off for a minute and he didn't know how to respond, so my dad drove away with the pictures he needed to complete his appraisal report.

[MRRiley]

Mike / Blue

Without vetting all drawn into the probable cause issues etc. the only point I was getting at is there a correct place to argue rights and probable cause and it is not on the street with the policeman whoay be at fault

Bitching about it in blogs is also not the place. A courtroom is

Lowell,

I would submit that this is the perfect place to discuss and complain about issues like this. This is a photography forum, peopled by photographers who are vulnerable to being affected by the issue. And it is important that people know about the issue before they encounter it. Otherwise they are not prepared to deal with it when it happens to them. Nowhere has anyone advocated violent resistence, but it is perfectly reasonable to advise people to stand their ground based upon the fact that they are engaged in a legal activity and have no reason to logically expect police interaction/intervention.

You are, however, right in one respect... A courtroom is where this issue will eventually be decided, but until then it is almost our civic duty to engage in a public discussion of it.

Mike

[Lowell Goudge]

Complaining about it in a courtroom means that the person must show a willingness to be arrested.

no it does not, what the person needs to demonstrate in court is violation of civil rights, that includes rights to free speech and freedom of movement etc, not just what ever violations take place fro wrongful arrest

But arrested for what?
You won't get arrested for illegal photography, you will get arrested for contempt of cop, meaning they'll push you until they can arrest you for something.

that is called entrapment and is illegal. Additionally, and I believe this is true in the US as well as canada, the police are bound by the same laws as the rest of us, and cannot brake those laws even in the persuit of a criminal. when they do, the criminal generally gets off even if guity.

What these jackasses are counting on is that the average person would rather move on than have the hassle of the arrest.

perhaps, but all it takes, is to get the jackasses name and badge number and register a formal complaint.

And eventually, we may as well leave our cameras at home because it will be, for all intents and purposes, illegal to photograph in public.
Britain just spelled out that it is legal to photograph in public, what we are waiting for now is to see if the cops on the street pay attention to the edict.
My guess is they won't.

As noted above, if they don't then they are braking the law and it is up to you as the "victim" to lodge a complaint. That is how the process works. While forums are good ways to vent, and maybe get some public opinion, our legal system works on precident. precident does not give a rats ass to what people post in forums, it cares about a) legslation, and b) arguments in court. This is also part of the "rights and privlidges of the freedoms that in general north americans have, are you saying you don't want to use it, As you said, if you don;t excersize your rights you may as well not have them, yet you ignore this basic one

As for cost, I am sure there are rights lawyers out there that would love to take this on pro-bono, just to make a name for themselves

Thats it for me.

[Wheatfield]

Thats it for me.

Good thing. You aren't even in the same solar system that the real world is in on this one.
Some cop tells you to stop taking pictures and move on, and you do, then what are you going to complain about to a court?
That you voluntarily gave up your right to photograph when asked?
That might fly about as well as a thrown brick.

[Blue]

no it does not, what the person needs to demonstrate in court is violation of civil rights, that includes rights to free speech and freedom of movement etc, not just what ever violations take place fro wrongful arrest that is called entrapment and is illegal. Additionally, and I believe this is true in the US as well as canada, the police are bound by the same laws as the rest of us, and cannot brake those laws even in the persuit of a criminal. when they do, the criminal generally gets off even if guity. perhaps, but all it takes, is to get the jackasses name and badge number and register a formal complaint. As noted above, if they don't then they are braking the law and it is up to you as the "victim" to lodge a complaint. That is how the process works. While forums are good ways to vent, and maybe get some public opinion, our legal system works on precident. precident does not give a rats ass to what people post in forums, it cares about a) legslation, and b) arguments in court. This is also part of the "rights and privlidges of the freedoms that in general north americans have, are you saying you don't want to use it, As you said, if you don;t excersize your rights you may as well not have them, yet you ignore this basic one

As for cost, I am sure there are rights lawyers out there that would love to take this on pro-bono, just to make a name for themselves

Thats it for me.

Lowell,

No one said anything about this setting up a precedent for civil court or criminal court. Public awareness is key and you underestimate its impact on a jury whether its in a civil court or criminal court. These discussions are merely a step towards that awareness. You are very naive if you think a "formal complaint" is going to have all that much of an overall impact. It will come down to the Sheriff, Chief, Col./Commander of the Highway Patrol etc. and perhaps the IAD. Then it becomes a personnel matter and gets put in a confidential file. I have seen detectives in Tallahassee do unauthorized work and get a confidential informant killed by making her try to buy $13K in ecstasy and a gun because of a second offense being caught with 2 tablets and 2 grams of jane. Backup didn't come because the Lt was on the computer surfing when she should have been listening to the radio. She, the Chief and others got a reprimand from the state, and the detective got dismissed after an IAD investigation. The 2 guys that killed her, dumped her body 50 miles away got life without parole. However, the Fraternal Order of Police got the detective reinstated due to collective bargaining agreements. I don't see a formal complaint about a Tally PD Officer threatening to take some one to jail for taking pictures to make it by IAD or the local chapter of Frat. Order of Police. The Sheriff's office would be a different story in some counties due to the top cop being elected.