In-Camera vs Software, what's your preference?

Rupert · 08-31-2010, 05:19 PM

I sort of get the idea that "non-processors" are a lot like a relative I have that is a strict Vegetarian.....except that she eats fish. Our shots are processed whether we do it or not.......and few are going to have a really great shot, lacking only a correction in WB, but delete it to avoid "processing". Of course, given some I see in today's world...I could be wrong...
Regards

RioRico · 09-01-2010, 04:03 AM

Originally posted by Rupert

I sort of get the idea that "non-processors" are a lot like a relative I have that is a strict Vegetarian.....except that she eats fish. Our shots are processed whether we do it or not...

Ah, to be young and pure... I think of my daughter's Vegan days -- it took hooking up with a celebrity chef to cure her. Then there are those who can afford the luxury of homeopathy etc because there's a *real* medical system availble as a safety net. It's easy to be a photographic purist when the camera (or a WalMart photo lab) does all the processing for you. I lament the commercial fading of film, not just for film's unique qualities, but because darkroom work fades with it. The hands-on effort of developing and printing one's own shots serves to eliminate any purists.

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

Since when do you get to write the definition of music or composition? Do you really believe you are right and virtually every textbook every written and every course taught on music is wrong?

A strain of popular thought can be characterized as "know-nothing-ism" (named for a 19th-century USA political party). Boffins / experts are effete intellectual snobs conspiring to destroy robust masculine traditional culture. Common-sense pragmatic guys don't need no fancy "book-learning" to live as free men. Scholars and researchers who've studied the workings of reality for their entire careers don't know nothing. Et f*cking cetera.

Nass · 09-01-2010, 04:54 AM

This is silly. It isn't an "or" question. It's an "and" question.

It's like asking a professional cyclist - do you try and get as good as possible by being as fit as possible or by buying the best bicycle.

woof · 09-01-2010, 06:15 AM

What does the "In-camera-no-PP-for-me" folk say about PRE-processing? Filters, push, pull, underexposing to get highlights, this kind of thing?

Even the staunchest no-processing people have to sometimes sit back and say... "hey... that was a nice blue sky... why is it all white?" or... "Hey, nice blue sky but I wanted detail in the face, why is it just a silhouette?"

Can't have both if you want it "to look like you saw it." That didn't come out right, but you know what I mean.

So how DO you deal with these situations when the purity of the shot is potentially threatened by the introduction of some device that is not strictly speaking the camera?

I shot an interior once and there was a very, very heavy green cast that the grass on the outside lawn was throwing thanks to a very, very bright sun. I did not have gels big enough to deal with this, so I got out a bunch of white sheets that I carry around for this purpose and laid them out on the lawn under the window from whence the cast. This worked.

I could have done it in PP, but decided to do it on the front end... what do the no-PP people say? Fair game?

If pre-processing is allowed in order to get it right in the camera, where is the line? Is there dome level of manipulation that goes so far beyond the pale that it simply is not permissible. If any pre-processing IS allowed, then be prepared to explain clearly why pre-processing is somehow different than post-processing.

Inquiring minds need to know.

Respectfully submitted,

woof!

jwiles · 09-01-2010, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

Are you even the slightest bit familiar with Stockhausen? Since when do you get to write the definition of music or composition? Do you really believe you are right and virtually every textbook every written and every course taught on music is wrong?

Another false distinction - electronic compositions *are* often performed live (which is what leads me to think you aren't familiar with this genre at all.

If at all possible, can we keep the threads constructive? Attacking each others' knowledge and integrity doesn't add to the good of the conversation.

Thanks.

LucyGoosey · 09-01-2010, 08:40 AM

Woof, I commend you for sharing your technique in dealing with that green cast. There's something to be said for choosing that over clicking a few buttons in pp.

Another thought, except for those who make a living through photography, where's the fun in pp anyway? I rather enjoy the search for good photo opportunities, whether that be in exotic or scenic destinations, interesting people, or just walking around my own neighborhood in search of good light.

It's too easy to say, "if only that light pole wasn't there this would be a good shot. Oh, I'll just cut it out in pp."

SpecialK · 09-01-2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Woof, I commend you for sharing your technique in dealing with that green cast. There's something to be said for choosing that over clicking a few buttons in pp.

What is that something?

Quote:

Another thought, except for those who make a living through photography, where's the fun in pp anyway?

Some people like the challenge of tweaking the image to improve it or just change it. You don't have to, though.

Quote:

It's too easy to say, "if only that light pole wasn't there this would be a good shot. Oh, I'll just cut it out in pp."

If the pole ruins it and otherwise it would be nice, what's wrong with that?

ChatMechant · 09-01-2010, 09:34 AM

feeling a wee bit sensitive today are we, lads?
incidentally, i am all too familiar with the electronic/experimental music genre. and dude, it's just my opinion. geez.
riorico, i was thinking you had some interesting things to say on the subject, but to say that veganism can be cured like it's a disease is really lame. being vegan is a dietary choice based on personal ethics and/or health concerns. something i like to point out to those who get off on the machismo bs is that Cesar Chavez was vegan. are you saying Cesar Chavez needed to be cured?

anyway, back to the main subject:

......ah, forget it. i need to get to work.

Marc Sabatella · 09-01-2010, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by jwiles

If at all possible, can we keep the threads constructive? Attacking each others' knowledge and integrity doesn't add to the good of the conversation.

Agreed, but neither does insulting large numbers of musicians by claiming that what they do isn't music. Similarly for suggesting that people who use PP to further improve images lack craftsmanship for not getting it "right" in camera. Both are incorrect statements that are insulting to large numbers of people, and they deserve a rebuttal.

So, if you have a better way of rebutting these statements, I'm all ears.

jwiles · 09-01-2010, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

Agreed, but neither does insulting large numbers of musicians by claiming that what they do isn't music. Similarly for suggesting that people who use PP to further improve images lack craftsmanship for not getting it "right" in camera. Both are incorrect statements that are insulting to large numbers of people, and they deserve a rebuttal.

So, if you have a better way of rebutting these statements, I'm all ears.

If you want to defend the world's professionals, perhaps you can get with them and start a different forum. There have been some pretty interesting and thought-provoking posts; some analogies have been used that are often opinions and often true statements. To attack someone for that is not the purpose of this thread.

With the amount of posts and the amount of hits on this subject, it seems to me that others are interested. So, in the interest of the subject, we'll get back to the discussion. If you'd like to participate in a constructive manner, you are ceratinly welcome.

Thanks

RioRico · 09-01-2010, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by ChatMechant

riorico, i was thinking you had some interesting things to say on the subject, but to say that veganism can be cured like it's a disease is really lame. being vegan is a dietary choice based on personal ethics and/or health concerns. something i like to point out to those who get off on the machismo bs is that Cesar Chavez was vegan. are you saying Cesar Chavez needed to be cured?

I was being flippant re: 'cure'. But I also trained as a paramedic/RN long ago, including technical classes on nutrition, and I know that humans did not evolve as non-eaters of animal products. Veganism is a cult belief. As for ethics: why is it ethical for animals to eat humans but not vice-versa? And Sr. Chavez died rather young. But I'll not say any more on nutrition, except that avocados are great. A resident of Antigua Guatemala is called a Panza Verde, green-belly, due to high consumption thereof.

My point was (I think) that purists (artistic, ideological, etc) can be rather like hothouse orchids, decorative but high-maintenance and not terribly useful.

Quote:

......ah, forget it. i need to get to work.

Work, the curse of the drinking class! I've given up both.

09-01-2010, 04:03 AM	#62
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by Rupert I sort of get the idea that "non-processors" are a lot like a relative I have that is a strict Vegetarian.....except that she eats fish. Our shots are processed whether we do it or not... Ah, to be young and pure... I think of my daughter's Vegan days -- it took hooking up with a celebrity chef to cure her. Then there are those who can afford the luxury of homeopathy etc because there's a real medical system availble as a safety net. It's easy to be a photographic purist when the camera (or a WalMart photo lab) does all the processing for you. I lament the commercial fading of film, not just for film's unique qualities, but because darkroom work fades with it. The hands-on effort of developing and printing one's own shots serves to eliminate any purists. Originally posted by Marc Sabatella Since when do you get to write the definition of music or composition? Do you really believe you are right and virtually every textbook every written and every course taught on music is wrong? A strain of popular thought can be characterized as "know-nothing-ism" (named for a 19th-century USA political party). Boffins / experts are effete intellectual snobs conspiring to destroy robust masculine traditional culture. Common-sense pragmatic guys don't need no fancy "book-learning" to live as free men. Scholars and researchers who've studied the workings of reality for their entire careers don't know nothing. Et fcking cetera. Last edited by RioRico; 09-01-2010 at 04:16 AM.*

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08-31-2010, 05:19 PM	#61
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	I sort of get the idea that "non-processors" are a lot like a relative I have that is a strict Vegetarian.....except that she eats fish. Our shots are processed whether we do it or not.......and few are going to have a really great shot, lacking only a correction in WB, but delete it to avoid "processing". Of course, given some I see in today's world...I could be wrong... Regards

09-01-2010, 04:54 AM	#63
Nass Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,402	This is silly. It isn't an "or" question. It's an "and" question. It's like asking a professional cyclist - do you try and get as good as possible by being as fit as possible or by buying the best bicycle.

09-01-2010, 06:15 AM	#64
woof Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the present Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,870	What does the "In-camera-no-PP-for-me" folk say about PRE-processing? Filters, push, pull, underexposing to get highlights, this kind of thing? Even the staunchest no-processing people have to sometimes sit back and say... "hey... that was a nice blue sky... why is it all white?" or... "Hey, nice blue sky but I wanted detail in the face, why is it just a silhouette?" Can't have both if you want it "to look like you saw it." That didn't come out right, but you know what I mean. So how DO you deal with these situations when the purity of the shot is potentially threatened by the introduction of some device that is not strictly speaking the camera? I shot an interior once and there was a very, very heavy green cast that the grass on the outside lawn was throwing thanks to a very, very bright sun. I did not have gels big enough to deal with this, so I got out a bunch of white sheets that I carry around for this purpose and laid them out on the lawn under the window from whence the cast. This worked. I could have done it in PP, but decided to do it on the front end... what do the no-PP people say? Fair game? If pre-processing is allowed in order to get it right in the camera, where is the line? Is there dome level of manipulation that goes so far beyond the pale that it simply is not permissible. If any pre-processing IS allowed, then be prepared to explain clearly why pre-processing is somehow different than post-processing. Inquiring minds need to know. Respectfully submitted, woof!

09-01-2010, 08:20 AM	#65
jwiles Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Ohio Photos: Albums Posts: 45 Original Poster	Originally posted by Marc Sabatella Are you even the slightest bit familiar with Stockhausen? Since when do you get to write the definition of music or composition? Do you really believe you are right and virtually every textbook every written and every course taught on music is wrong? Another false distinction - electronic compositions are often performed live (which is what leads me to think you aren't familiar with this genre at all. If at all possible, can we keep the threads constructive? Attacking each others' knowledge and integrity doesn't add to the good of the conversation. Thanks.

09-01-2010, 08:40 AM	#66
LucyGoosey Forum Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: New Jersey Photos: Albums Posts: 86	Woof, I commend you for sharing your technique in dealing with that green cast. There's something to be said for choosing that over clicking a few buttons in pp. Another thought, except for those who make a living through photography, where's the fun in pp anyway? I rather enjoy the search for good photo opportunities, whether that be in exotic or scenic destinations, interesting people, or just walking around my own neighborhood in search of good light. It's too easy to say, "if only that light pole wasn't there this would be a good shot. Oh, I'll just cut it out in pp."

09-01-2010, 08:46 AM	#67
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,482	Quote: Woof, I commend you for sharing your technique in dealing with that green cast. There's something to be said for choosing that over clicking a few buttons in pp. What is that something? Quote: Another thought, except for those who make a living through photography, where's the fun in pp anyway? Some people like the challenge of tweaking the image to improve it or just change it. You don't have to, though. Quote: It's too easy to say, "if only that light pole wasn't there this would be a good shot. Oh, I'll just cut it out in pp." If the pole ruins it and otherwise it would be nice, what's wrong with that?

09-01-2010, 09:34 AM	#68
ChatMechant Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Matsuyama Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,284	feeling a wee bit sensitive today are we, lads? incidentally, i am all too familiar with the electronic/experimental music genre. and dude, it's just my opinion. geez. riorico, i was thinking you had some interesting things to say on the subject, but to say that veganism can be cured like it's a disease is really lame. being vegan is a dietary choice based on personal ethics and/or health concerns. something i like to point out to those who get off on the machismo bs is that Cesar Chavez was vegan. are you saying Cesar Chavez needed to be cured? anyway, back to the main subject: ......ah, forget it. i need to get to work.

09-01-2010, 09:36 AM	#69
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Originally posted by jwiles If at all possible, can we keep the threads constructive? Attacking each others' knowledge and integrity doesn't add to the good of the conversation. Agreed, but neither does insulting large numbers of musicians by claiming that what they do isn't music. Similarly for suggesting that people who use PP to further improve images lack craftsmanship for not getting it "right" in camera. Both are incorrect statements that are insulting to large numbers of people, and they deserve a rebuttal. So, if you have a better way of rebutting these statements, I'm all ears.

09-01-2010, 10:06 AM	#70
jwiles Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Ohio Photos: Albums Posts: 45 Original Poster	Originally posted by Marc Sabatella Agreed, but neither does insulting large numbers of musicians by claiming that what they do isn't music. Similarly for suggesting that people who use PP to further improve images lack craftsmanship for not getting it "right" in camera. Both are incorrect statements that are insulting to large numbers of people, and they deserve a rebuttal. So, if you have a better way of rebutting these statements, I'm all ears. If you want to defend the world's professionals, perhaps you can get with them and start a different forum. There have been some pretty interesting and thought-provoking posts; some analogies have been used that are often opinions and often true statements. To attack someone for that is not the purpose of this thread. With the amount of posts and the amount of hits on this subject, it seems to me that others are interested. So, in the interest of the subject, we'll get back to the discussion. If you'd like to participate in a constructive manner, you are ceratinly welcome. Thanks

09-01-2010, 10:14 AM	#71
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by ChatMechant riorico, i was thinking you had some interesting things to say on the subject, but to say that veganism can be cured like it's a disease is really lame. being vegan is a dietary choice based on personal ethics and/or health concerns. something i like to point out to those who get off on the machismo bs is that Cesar Chavez was vegan. are you saying Cesar Chavez needed to be cured? I was being flippant re: 'cure'. But I also trained as a paramedic/RN long ago, including technical classes on nutrition, and I know that humans did not evolve as non-eaters of animal products. Veganism is a cult belief. As for ethics: why is it ethical for animals to eat humans but not vice-versa? And Sr. Chavez died rather young. But I'll not say any more on nutrition, except that avocados are great. A resident of Antigua Guatemala is called a Panza Verde, green-belly, due to high consumption thereof. My point was (I think) that purists (artistic, ideological, etc) can be rather like hothouse orchids, decorative but high-maintenance and not terribly useful. Quote: ......ah, forget it. i need to get to work. Work, the curse of the drinking class! I've given up both.