[Hannican]

Hi all,

I'm experimenting with flash photography lately, after having spent much of the past 2-3 years shooting landscapes and bright daylight images. I'm very frustrated by a seeming inability to take photos of people without their eyes looking all droopy, and I read somewhere it's the flash sync speed that causes it.

Is there anything I can do to make my K10D and AF540 or AF360 (or even the pop up flash) go faster to avoid this? The camera is essentially worthless as a flash photography piece for people as long as this continues, and I can't figure out how to avoid it.

I would hate to have to sell everything and go to a competing brand just to take photos of my friends where they don't look like stoned morons...

Any advice is most appreciated

-Tim

[Lowell Goudge]

post some photos please.

also if this is an issue with pentax, everyone else has the same issue. There is not a camera made with faster sync than 1/250 pentax is at 1/180 presently, but cameras have had sync speeds as low as 1/60 in film and no one complained then about people looking drowsy.

[Hannican]

I'm at work right now, but I'll try to get some posted later tonight. I've seen threads discussing this same complaint before (in years past), but haven't been following the Forum in quite a while due to other activities eating into Photo time.

This guy is asking essentially the same question (though not about a Pentax):
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18977

An answer says "The flash fires twice because of E-TTL Evaluative-Through-The-Lens). A pre-flash is fired to measure the light and determine the main flash output. This function is disabled in the Manual mode, so the flash will fire only once. In the M mode you will have to adjust the flash output manually. Otherwise, the flash will fire at full power all the time and, most likely, you pictures will be severely overexposed."

Is this the same issue I'm experiencing? My Flashes are shooting once to evaluate main flash output, and that short first burst is causing people to close their eyes? This person then says to try getting a flash that can be used as a bounce so that the preflash isn't hitting people in the face... but that's not an option for me (most of the time) since I shoot outside at night.

Anyone aware of a workaround? Anything else that I can try? Is it time to learn to use my flash manually?

[vievetrick]

Tim, that is not the camera or the flash that is the person you are taking the photo of. I have a few friends that no matter how hard I try they blink and in my daughters case I get her mid blink (AKA that drowsky have baked look). Is it the same person or every person?

Not trying to be funny but just saying that most like is the case. I don't you will find a flash sync that is faster than a blinker.


I usually have them close there eyes them do the 1,2,3 open click trick.

Good luck and if I am way off sorry but a few examples of what you meen could help us try and help you ;-)

[RBellavance]

I know this effect well. It's not the sync speed, but the metering pre-flash of P-TTL. Some people start blinking because of this pre-flash, and the actual exposure catches their eyes as they are partly closed.

That is a problem occuring with all brands (iTTL for Nikon, E-TTL for Canon, etc), BTW.

In my experience, you can often reduce the effect by bouncing the flash (to the ceiling, etc).

[Hannican]

Whoops - I edited up above after you guys responded.

So it sounds like the pre-flash is indeed the culprit. I have a problem that I'm typically shooting outdoors at night (camping trips), so I'm going to have to figure out a way to fire my flash manually I guess. Glad to hear that everyone has the same issue and that isn't just the Pentax brand!

So... next question then... WHY does everyone complain about a flash x-sync speed of 180? Why isn't that fast enough? What's so much better about 250?

[Lowell Goudge]

OK so if it is the peoples response to P-TTL and other makers vversions of open aperture flash metering, then why not go back a step and shoot with an *istD and TTL flash., It does support it.

or use auto and no pre-flash, and that way rule everything else out.

[elho_cid]

1/250 is not so much better. It helps a bit if you want to kill natural light but it is just 1/2 EV. I hope once there will be camera with fully electronic (no mechanical) shutter and good image quality. Until then, you can use compact cameras to reach as far as 1/1000, but that's just a toy.

Actually you can turn both your falshes to auto ( "A" setting ) this way the flash does the metering and there is no preflash at all.

[Blue]

I know this effect well. It's not the sync speed, but the metering pre-flash of P-TTL. Some people start blinking because of this pre-flash, and the actual exposure catches their eyes as they are partly closed.

That is a problem occuring with all brands (iTTL for Nikon, E-TTL for Canon, etc), BTW.

In my experience, you can often reduce the effect by bouncing the flash (to the ceiling, etc).

+1. Some people argue they have no problem with this and others don't even use p-ttl flash because of it. I definitely have problems with it.

[DAZ]

People keep asking for TTL instead of P-TTL (or what ever it is on that camera) but the reason we don’t have it is the camera makers went away from it because on digital it has problems.

The basic way TTL works on film was the shutter opens, the flash fires and some of the light reflects off the film to a sensor in the camera. With a digital you have a sensor instead of film and it is much shinier then film that has basically a duller finish to it. A digital sensor is like a mirror and film is a flat gray wall. On a mirror you either get a bright refection or nothing. To make it harder they are now using anti reflective coatings on the sensors. All of this makes TTL with digital died.

DAZ

[Mike Cash]

I wouldn't have another P-TTL flash if you gave me the damned thing.

Use the "A" mode and all will be copacetic.

[Hannican]

Thank you for the great responses guys! I had no idea "A" mode would save me, but will be trying it out tonight =)