Pentax, can you make a DSLR for sports shooters?

cwood · 02-24-2011, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by jbinpg

Lowell, I really think the need for garbage can sized front elements has lessened with the advent of usable high ISO in the K-5 and other new sensors.

Jack

The last time I said this on the Pentax Forums it did not go over so well... But I work with lots of sports photographers who have garbage can size elements and the reason they shoot at F2.8 is not just because you can get better ISO. No matter how nice the sensor is in their 1DmkIV's and D3s's they still shoot at the widest aperture they can get for a given focal length.

**jbinpg** · 02-24-2011, 08:47 PM

Exactly. Widest aperture means highest shutter speed per given ISO. Sports shooters haven't changed much in 30 years. They are out there to freeze motion, not show bokeh effects.

bobmaxja · 02-24-2011, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by jbinpg

They are out there to freeze motion, not show bokeh effects.

That so true as most of them for sports shoot in JPEG

Arpe · 02-27-2011, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Class A

What's wrong with using long Sigma lenses for sports?

But some competition would be good, and, if you believe the tests, Sigma are not quite up with N and C as far as IQ goes.

Originally posted by jbinpg

Exactly. Widest aperture means highest shutter speed per given ISO. Sports shooters haven't changed much in 30 years. They are out there to freeze motion, not show bokeh effects.

Also the large aperture over a long distance helps isolate the players from the crowd.

Macario · 03-01-2011, 02:18 PM

I do shoot surf and bodyboarding with my K7 and a 400 f5.6 lens, and have no problem with AF or anything. Indoors, yes then you would need a faster lens.

Arpe · 03-01-2011, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Macario

I do shoot surf and bodyboarding with my K7 and a 400 f5.6 lens

You have a large dof at those distances at f5.6, so AF speed not so important.

Class A · 03-01-2011, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Arpe

But some competition would be good, and, if you believe the tests, Sigma are not quite up with N and C as far as IQ goes.

I reckon Canikon lenses are all the competition Sigma needs. I don't think they would up their game if Pentax added a "sports" lens to their line.

Regarding tests: I only believe some of them.

user440 · 03-03-2011, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by MRRiley

Not a thing.... 90% of my MotoGP images where shot using the BIGMA. Cant wait for Sigma to come out with a weather sealed version.

Just because one can, doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job.

Mountain Vision · 03-04-2011, 02:00 AM

And its still wrong as a general way of shooting sports...but everyone shoots their own style, perhaps all the sports photogs you work with use a single style.

Originally posted by cwood

The last time I said this on the Pentax Forums it did not go over so well... But I work with lots of sports photographers who have garbage can size elements and the reason they shoot at F2.8 is not just because you can get better ISO. No matter how nice the sensor is in their 1DmkIV's and D3s's they still shoot at the widest aperture they can get for a given focal length.

Mountain Vision · 03-04-2011, 02:09 AM

Clearly you never shot in daylight.

1/2000th second will freeze a fastball if you are facing it, no need for 1/8000, thus in that situation you'd probably shoot at f6.3 or 7.1 from behind the backstop at low ISO, you are using a 300mm lens from 90ft away so the background is still nice and blurry.

Aside from that, 30 years ago ISO 400 print film was "fast" today 1600 is better than those 400 films...that is 2 stops of light!

your forgeting depth of focus, punch some of your focal lengths and distances into a DOF calc, start seeing any unnecessary issues? Super shallow focus is great for being artsy but most editorial sports images aren't about being artsy

Originally posted by jbinpg

Exactly. Widest aperture means highest shutter speed per given ISO. Sports shooters haven't changed much in 30 years. They are out there to freeze motion, not show bokeh effects.

cwood · 03-04-2011, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Mountain Vision

And its still wrong as a general way of shooting sports...but everyone shoots their own style, perhaps all the sports photogs you work with use a single style.

I like this guys work... as well as his client list.

DennisWierzbicki.com Photo Gallery by dmwierz45 at pbase.com

Mountain Vision · 03-04-2011, 02:57 PM

Well, if its a pissing match, I like dave black and his client list.

Take a look at daves, "at the ranch section" sure wide open shots, but probably 50% are stopped down a few stops, most aren't wide open. Few are below F2.8. I'm sure Dave as a fully sponsored Nikon shooter probably has access to the fastest production glass in the world for every event!

I dunno, I think Mr. Black is one of the best sports photogs in the world, arguable of course, but certainly in the top .00001% of all.

Point is, knowing what aperture to use and when is important. The whole, sports shooters always shoot wide open is wrong. They might shoot towards wide open most of the time, and in poor light almost all the time, but its not an automatic max aperture thing as you are implying.

Originally posted by cwood

I like this guys work... as well as his client list.

DennisWierzbicki.com Photo Gallery by dmwierz45 at pbase.com

cwood · 03-04-2011, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Mountain Vision

Well, if its a pissing match,

What pissing match?

You said it was "wrong" to shoot sports at wide apertures. I think if you had said "In my opinion I don't think it is correct"... then that would be fair enough. But by taking such a strong stance it is fairly safe to say that you are the one who is wrong and you can have a look through a mountain of images from many of the worlds best sports photographers to see why... I just showed you one example of a guy who pretty much never shoots an aperture smaller than F3.5 with his telephoto lenses... and has an impressive client list that does not consider his style to be "wrong". I used that example because the exif is available for all his shots.

That does not mean you have to like telephoto photos taken at wide aperture... but it is a very prevalent way to shoot sports. And that is no secret. Looking quickly at Dave Blacks site I see very few long-lens telephoto picture and the ones I see were likely taken at very wide apertures.

I don't see any way that someone can look at the photos of Dennis Wierzbicki and say that they were taken "incorrectly" which is exactly what you have said.

Mountain Vision · 03-05-2011, 12:39 AM

The thing is I didn't say it was incorrect to shoot wide open during sports. I said that to say as a rule you should be (or everyone does) shooting wide open at f/2 or 2.8 or 1.4 is wrong.

I didn't say I don't like them, I said knowing when you need to shoot wide open is important.

And I didn't look at the photos, I was replying using tapatalk for my smart phone which isn't always ideal for browsing image based websites. I assumed you were pointing me to a good photographer when I replied.

Anyway, the point is, the last time we debated this you implied that sports were always shot wide open, I said I thought that was incorrect based on many factors. I stand by that statement, and I don't think it's solely an opinion, it's a fact.

Using aperture to control depth of focus and shutter speed are important in sports. You don't always need stop action and you don't always need 5 inches of focus depth. Knowing when you need 1ft or 10ft is important.

So is it wrong to shoot wide open? No! Is a primary rule of sports photography to shoot wide open? No! The second question is where we are having the disagreement.

**andre-mz5** · 03-07-2011, 05:50 AM

Sports is one of my favorite subjects. I normally shoot wide open or just stop down half a stop. Reason : higher shutter speeds or lower ISO and due to the shallow DOF the action will stand out from the background. In 95% of the cases the background is filled with all sorts of subjects that uou don't want to show up to prominently in the picture.
In the old days you had to know the sport you were gone shoot, otherwise you would only throw away those costly films.
Now with the K5 which excels at high ISO, you will have more chance to get more pictures at indoor sports.
Here as an example of a shot from a tabletennis match. A very fast action sport, but I could get plenty of keepers with the K5 + Sigma 70-200 F2.8

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02-24-2011, 07:48 PM	#31
cwood Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: California Posts: 851	Originally posted by jbinpg Lowell, I really think the need for garbage can sized front elements has lessened with the advent of usable high ISO in the K-5 and other new sensors. Jack The last time I said this on the Pentax Forums it did not go over so well... But I work with lots of sports photographers who have garbage can size elements and the reason they shoot at F2.8 is not just because you can get better ISO. No matter how nice the sensor is in their 1DmkIV's and D3s's they still shoot at the widest aperture they can get for a given focal length.

02-24-2011, 08:47 PM	#32
jbinpg Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Prince George, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,546	Exactly. Widest aperture means highest shutter speed per given ISO. Sports shooters haven't changed much in 30 years. They are out there to freeze motion, not show bokeh effects.

02-24-2011, 09:08 PM	#33
bobmaxja Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Laval, Quebec Canada Posts: 2,171	Originally posted by jbinpg They are out there to freeze motion, not show bokeh effects. That so true as most of them for sports shoot in JPEG

02-27-2011, 06:09 PM	#34
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	Originally posted by Class A What's wrong with using long Sigma lenses for sports? But some competition would be good, and, if you believe the tests, Sigma are not quite up with N and C as far as IQ goes. Originally posted by jbinpg Exactly. Widest aperture means highest shutter speed per given ISO. Sports shooters haven't changed much in 30 years. They are out there to freeze motion, not show bokeh effects. Also the large aperture over a long distance helps isolate the players from the crowd.

03-01-2011, 02:18 PM	#35
Macario Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Hoek van Holland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,393	I do shoot surf and bodyboarding with my K7 and a 400 f5.6 lens, and have no problem with AF or anything. Indoors, yes then you would need a faster lens.

03-01-2011, 04:58 PM	#36
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	Originally posted by Macario I do shoot surf and bodyboarding with my K7 and a 400 f5.6 lens You have a large dof at those distances at f5.6, so AF speed not so important.

03-01-2011, 05:55 PM	#37
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Arpe But some competition would be good, and, if you believe the tests, Sigma are not quite up with N and C as far as IQ goes. I reckon Canikon lenses are all the competition Sigma needs. I don't think they would up their game if Pentax added a "sports" lens to their line. Regarding tests: I only believe some of them.

03-03-2011, 03:49 PM	#38
user440 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO Photos: Gallery Posts: 349	Originally posted by MRRiley Not a thing.... 90% of my MotoGP images where shot using the BIGMA. Cant wait for Sigma to come out with a weather sealed version. Just because one can, doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job.

03-04-2011, 02:00 AM	#39
Mountain Vision Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: America's First Wilderness Posts: 529	And its still wrong as a general way of shooting sports...but everyone shoots their own style, perhaps all the sports photogs you work with use a single style. Originally posted by cwood The last time I said this on the Pentax Forums it did not go over so well... But I work with lots of sports photographers who have garbage can size elements and the reason they shoot at F2.8 is not just because you can get better ISO. No matter how nice the sensor is in their 1DmkIV's and D3s's they still shoot at the widest aperture they can get for a given focal length.

03-04-2011, 02:09 AM	#40
Mountain Vision Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: America's First Wilderness Posts: 529	Clearly you never shot in daylight. 1/2000th second will freeze a fastball if you are facing it, no need for 1/8000, thus in that situation you'd probably shoot at f6.3 or 7.1 from behind the backstop at low ISO, you are using a 300mm lens from 90ft away so the background is still nice and blurry. Aside from that, 30 years ago ISO 400 print film was "fast" today 1600 is better than those 400 films...that is 2 stops of light! your forgeting depth of focus, punch some of your focal lengths and distances into a DOF calc, start seeing any unnecessary issues? Super shallow focus is great for being artsy but most editorial sports images aren't about being artsy Originally posted by jbinpg Exactly. Widest aperture means highest shutter speed per given ISO. Sports shooters haven't changed much in 30 years. They are out there to freeze motion, not show bokeh effects.

03-04-2011, 10:33 AM	#41
cwood Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: California Posts: 851	Originally posted by Mountain Vision And its still wrong as a general way of shooting sports...but everyone shoots their own style, perhaps all the sports photogs you work with use a single style. I like this guys work... as well as his client list. DennisWierzbicki.com Photo Gallery by dmwierz45 at pbase.com

03-04-2011, 02:57 PM	#42
Mountain Vision Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: America's First Wilderness Posts: 529	Well, if its a pissing match, I like dave black and his client list. Take a look at daves, "at the ranch section" sure wide open shots, but probably 50% are stopped down a few stops, most aren't wide open. Few are below F2.8. I'm sure Dave as a fully sponsored Nikon shooter probably has access to the fastest production glass in the world for every event! I dunno, I think Mr. Black is one of the best sports photogs in the world, arguable of course, but certainly in the top .00001% of all. Point is, knowing what aperture to use and when is important. The whole, sports shooters always shoot wide open is wrong. They might shoot towards wide open most of the time, and in poor light almost all the time, but its not an automatic max aperture thing as you are implying. Originally posted by cwood I like this guys work... as well as his client list. DennisWierzbicki.com Photo Gallery by dmwierz45 at pbase.com

03-04-2011, 05:22 PM	#43
cwood Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: California Posts: 851	Originally posted by Mountain Vision Well, if its a pissing match, What pissing match? You said it was "wrong" to shoot sports at wide apertures. I think if you had said "In my opinion I don't think it is correct"... then that would be fair enough. But by taking such a strong stance it is fairly safe to say that you are the one who is wrong and you can have a look through a mountain of images from many of the worlds best sports photographers to see why... I just showed you one example of a guy who pretty much never shoots an aperture smaller than F3.5 with his telephoto lenses... and has an impressive client list that does not consider his style to be "wrong". I used that example because the exif is available for all his shots. That does not mean you have to like telephoto photos taken at wide aperture... but it is a very prevalent way to shoot sports. And that is no secret. Looking quickly at Dave Blacks site I see very few long-lens telephoto picture and the ones I see were likely taken at very wide apertures. I don't see any way that someone can look at the photos of Dennis Wierzbicki and say that they were taken "incorrectly" which is exactly what you have said.

03-05-2011, 12:39 AM	#44
Mountain Vision Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: America's First Wilderness Posts: 529	The thing is I didn't say it was incorrect to shoot wide open during sports. I said that to say as a rule you should be (or everyone does) shooting wide open at f/2 or 2.8 or 1.4 is wrong. I didn't say I don't like them, I said knowing when you need to shoot wide open is important. And I didn't look at the photos, I was replying using tapatalk for my smart phone which isn't always ideal for browsing image based websites. I assumed you were pointing me to a good photographer when I replied. Anyway, the point is, the last time we debated this you implied that sports were always shot wide open, I said I thought that was incorrect based on many factors. I stand by that statement, and I don't think it's solely an opinion, it's a fact. Using aperture to control depth of focus and shutter speed are important in sports. You don't always need stop action and you don't always need 5 inches of focus depth. Knowing when you need 1ft or 10ft is important. So is it wrong to shoot wide open? No! Is a primary rule of sports photography to shoot wide open? No! The second question is where we are having the disagreement.

03-07-2011, 05:50 AM	#45
andre-mz5 Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Eindhoven Photos: Gallery Posts: 268	Sports is one of my favorite subjects. I normally shoot wide open or just stop down half a stop. Reason : higher shutter speeds or lower ISO and due to the shallow DOF the action will stand out from the background. In 95% of the cases the background is filled with all sorts of subjects that uou don't want to show up to prominently in the picture. In the old days you had to know the sport you were gone shoot, otherwise you would only throw away those costly films. Now with the K5 which excels at high ISO, you will have more chance to get more pictures at indoor sports. Here as an example of a shot from a tabletennis match. A very fast action sport, but I could get plenty of keepers with the K5 + Sigma 70-200 F2.8