Going FF for large printing? .. or not?

Mountain Vision · 01-25-2011, 04:30 PM

RE: Night images

Unless you are shooting stop action, don't see any advantage. Please point out specific situations where it is an advantage?

Gashog · 01-25-2011, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Mountain Vision

buy a 645D and print a billboard and drop it in your FF canikon toting friends/coworkers yard!

I've been Jonesing for a 4X5 press camera lately!

How big a print are we talking anyway? Fractals big?
I get a kick out of guys worrying about 16MP being low res. I still shoot a 6MP DSLR!

cwood · 01-25-2011, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Mountain Vision

For instance. If I'm shooting a hockey game with an APS dslr at 1/500th and f2.8 at 1600. Well sure, I can shoot with a full frame camera at 3200 and get similar noise (because in the end its really just 1 stop difference).

However, to get the same DOF from the Full frame camera I need to go to F/4 and to get 1/500th at f4, I NEED TO GO TO ISO 3200!

Off topic really... but sports photography always happens at the thinest DOF possible. This is the reason we carry around the 300mm lens that weighs 6lb instead of the one that weighs only 1.5lb... Even for an outdoor event in full sun. A sports photographer would never drop down to F4 to get more DOF. The only times I stop my camera down are for landscapes and group portraits.

Mountain Vision · 01-25-2011, 08:42 PM

Again, wrong.

Limiting dof is important but not the reason for f2.8 glass, its shutter speed.

F/4 is plenty shallow for a 300mm lens if you are close enough to fill the frame with it.

so in the end wide open apertures are the offspring of necessity, not artistic need.

In daylight most sports are shot at f/4 to f/5.6, not f2.8 or F1.4.

So again, for sports and wildlife, the increased DOF from APS sensors is welcome, not a detriment...its also areason many professional wildlife photographers prefer aps-c.

Originally posted by cwood

Off topic really... but sports photography always happens at the thinest DOF possible. This is the reason we carry around the 300mm lens that weighs 6lb instead of the one that weighs only 1.5lb... Even for an outdoor event in full sun. A sports photographer would never drop down to F4 to get more DOF. The only times I stop my camera down are for landscapes and group portraits.

cwood · 01-25-2011, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Mountain Vision

Again, wrong.

.

you are mistaken

Gashog · 01-25-2011, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by cwood

you are mistaken

LOL! LOLOL! I saw that!

I guess I should legitimize this post by suggesting to OP that giant printing is more about your printing skills then your camera resolution and ISO. My brother in law has an Epson 9000. He's pretty good. You interested?

Mountain Vision · 01-25-2011, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by cwood

you are mistaken

You may want to brush up on your sports shooting, or stick to weddings because your technique is some of the most cliche and erroneous I have heard anyone give.

**Miguel** · 01-25-2011, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Gashog

about your printing skills

Yep, I would say your printer's skills are the key if you are needing to up-size significantly (~>30 inches). I recommend developing a good working relationship with a professional printing service provider. The better printers (I mean people not hardware) know the best methods for squeezing out the cleanest pixels with their specific hardware.

I'm working with a guy who is somehow outputting a sharp 32-inch wide color print from an image of mine taken with a K10D.

M

Bramela · 01-26-2011, 12:47 AM

I would like to suggest the all posts be ON TOPIC and that accusing and degrading other members for expressing their opinion might be not useful to the discussion.
Every member is entitled to express their opinion without having to be subject to outright criticism and sharp remarks. Disagreement can be expressed tactfully.

Thanks guys.

Gashog · 01-26-2011, 05:31 AM

How come everyone from Australia is called Bruce?

On topic!

I have an A0 canvas hanging over my fireplace that was shot with an S2 Pro.
Amazing what fractals can do!

johnmflores · 01-26-2011, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by Bramela

I would like to suggest the all posts be ON TOPIC and that accusing and degrading other members for expressing their opinion might be not useful to the discussion.
Every member is entitled to express their opinion without having to be subject to outright criticism and sharp remarks. Disagreement can be expressed tactfully.

Thanks guys.

+1

To the OP, for the outdoor/billboards that you didn't get, what line screen or LPI was used? Billboards are typically viewed from far away or often from a moving vehicle, so screens are typically very low. Outdoor signage - i.e., bus shelters, rail stations, etc - is smaller but also viewed from a closer distance

I'm trying to get a sense as to how many megapixels you need to satisfy the billboard/outdoor scenario and whether there are alternatives to going FF such as high res APS-C or fractals (Gashog mentioned it).

Also, is your Fuji S2Pro the camera that doesn't have enough resolution for this application?

Gashog · 01-26-2011, 06:32 AM

I have the S2 Pro.
6MP (12 interpolated) is plenty for me. My snapshots either wind up being shared and viewed on a computer screen or converted to greyscale and in the local papers. I have an S5 Pro now which is an awesome body, but it still has about the same native resolution as my old S2. The D1 had like 2.3 MP or something and they made billboards with that back in the day.
I'll post a picture of the picture over my fireplace later. Again, S2 Pro with native res of 6MP interpolated to 12MP in RAW. 2002 technology.

I realise that I'm talking about my experience with another brand of camera. I should probably put in my sig somewhere, a disclaimer or something. I don't own a Pentax DSLR. I shoot modified Nikons. My Pentax gear consists of 4 film bodies, 2 flashes and a box of lenses.

Edit:

netuser · 01-26-2011, 04:51 PM

Sorry guys, I'm travelling so I didnt come here sooner

The attached "night" image is from a friend of mine with a 5D II + Canon 50mm 1.4 USM; ISO 1600; f/1.8; 1/100

The image supported a LARGE print

... can aps-c to this? (k7 I don't think so... maybe k5?)

netuser · 01-26-2011, 04:58 PM

Also an "outdoor" for example with the 5d II... like I was talking about...

Gashog · 01-26-2011, 05:14 PM

Below ISO 3200 APS-C FinePix S5 Pro. Hand held with my "nifty 35"...Uh..I mean my "fast 35"...Uh....Oh well.

Just bear in mind that this is a CCD camera from 2007. A little better then the D-200 but all the new CMOS APS-C cameras do ~25,000. Doesn't the K5 do over 50,000 ISO?

At ISO 100 (where I usually shoot) I'll print as big as you want.

01-26-2011, 06:32 AM	#27
Gashog Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NY Photos: Albums Posts: 523	I have the S2 Pro. 6MP (12 interpolated) is plenty for me. My snapshots either wind up being shared and viewed on a computer screen or converted to greyscale and in the local papers. I have an S5 Pro now which is an awesome body, but it still has about the same native resolution as my old S2. The D1 had like 2.3 MP or something and they made billboards with that back in the day. I'll post a picture of the picture over my fireplace later. Again, S2 Pro with native res of 6MP interpolated to 12MP in RAW. 2002 technology. I realise that I'm talking about my experience with another brand of camera. I should probably put in my sig somewhere, a disclaimer or something. I don't own a Pentax DSLR. I shoot modified Nikons. My Pentax gear consists of 4 film bodies, 2 flashes and a box of lenses. Edit: Last edited by Gashog; 01-26-2011 at 08:15 AM.

01-26-2011, 04:51 PM	#28
netuser Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Azores Islands, Portugal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,236 Original Poster	Sorry guys, I'm travelling so I didnt come here sooner The attached "night" image is from a friend of mine with a 5D II + Canon 50mm 1.4 USM; ISO 1600; f/1.8; 1/100 The image supported a LARGE print ... can aps-c to this? (k7 I don't think so... maybe k5?) Attached Images

01-26-2011, 04:58 PM	#29
netuser Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Azores Islands, Portugal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,236 Original Poster	Also an "outdoor" for example with the 5d II... like I was talking about... Attached Images

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01-25-2011, 04:30 PM	#16
Mountain Vision Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: America's First Wilderness Posts: 529	RE: Night images Unless you are shooting stop action, don't see any advantage. Please point out specific situations where it is an advantage?

01-25-2011, 05:03 PM	#17
Gashog Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NY Photos: Albums Posts: 523	Originally posted by Mountain Vision buy a 645D and print a billboard and drop it in your FF canikon toting friends/coworkers yard! I've been Jonesing for a 4X5 press camera lately! How big a print are we talking anyway? Fractals big? I get a kick out of guys worrying about 16MP being low res. I still shoot a 6MP DSLR!

01-25-2011, 05:07 PM	#18
cwood Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: California Posts: 851	Originally posted by Mountain Vision For instance. If I'm shooting a hockey game with an APS dslr at 1/500th and f2.8 at 1600. Well sure, I can shoot with a full frame camera at 3200 and get similar noise (because in the end its really just 1 stop difference). However, to get the same DOF from the Full frame camera I need to go to F/4 and to get 1/500th at f4, I NEED TO GO TO ISO 3200! Off topic really... but sports photography always happens at the thinest DOF possible. This is the reason we carry around the 300mm lens that weighs 6lb instead of the one that weighs only 1.5lb... Even for an outdoor event in full sun. A sports photographer would never drop down to F4 to get more DOF. The only times I stop my camera down are for landscapes and group portraits.

01-25-2011, 08:42 PM	#19
Mountain Vision Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: America's First Wilderness Posts: 529	Again, wrong. Limiting dof is important but not the reason for f2.8 glass, its shutter speed. F/4 is plenty shallow for a 300mm lens if you are close enough to fill the frame with it. so in the end wide open apertures are the offspring of necessity, not artistic need. In daylight most sports are shot at f/4 to f/5.6, not f2.8 or F1.4. So again, for sports and wildlife, the increased DOF from APS sensors is welcome, not a detriment...its also areason many professional wildlife photographers prefer aps-c. Originally posted by cwood Off topic really... but sports photography always happens at the thinest DOF possible. This is the reason we carry around the 300mm lens that weighs 6lb instead of the one that weighs only 1.5lb... Even for an outdoor event in full sun. A sports photographer would never drop down to F4 to get more DOF. The only times I stop my camera down are for landscapes and group portraits.

01-25-2011, 09:43 PM	#20
cwood Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: California Posts: 851	Originally posted by Mountain Vision Again, wrong. . you are mistaken

01-25-2011, 09:52 PM	#21
Gashog Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NY Photos: Albums Posts: 523	Originally posted by cwood you are mistaken LOL! LOLOL! I saw that! I guess I should legitimize this post by suggesting to OP that giant printing is more about your printing skills then your camera resolution and ISO. My brother in law has an Epson 9000. He's pretty good. You interested?

01-25-2011, 10:31 PM	#22
Mountain Vision Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: America's First Wilderness Posts: 529	Originally posted by cwood you are mistaken You may want to brush up on your sports shooting, or stick to weddings because your technique is some of the most cliche and erroneous I have heard anyone give.

01-25-2011, 10:33 PM	#23
Miguel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Near Seattle Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,743	Originally posted by Gashog about your printing skills Yep, I would say your printer's skills are the key if you are needing to up-size significantly (~>30 inches). I recommend developing a good working relationship with a professional printing service provider. The better printers (I mean people not hardware) know the best methods for squeezing out the cleanest pixels with their specific hardware. I'm working with a guy who is somehow outputting a sharp 32-inch wide color print from an image of mine taken with a K10D. M

01-26-2011, 12:47 AM	#24
Bramela Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Newcastle Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,284	I would like to suggest the all posts be ON TOPIC and that accusing and degrading other members for expressing their opinion might be not useful to the discussion. Every member is entitled to express their opinion without having to be subject to outright criticism and sharp remarks. Disagreement can be expressed tactfully. Thanks guys.

01-26-2011, 05:31 AM	#25
Gashog Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NY Photos: Albums Posts: 523	How come everyone from Australia is called Bruce? On topic! I have an A0 canvas hanging over my fireplace that was shot with an S2 Pro. Amazing what fractals can do!

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01-26-2011, 06:19 AM	#26
johnmflores Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somerville, NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,361	Originally posted by Bramela I would like to suggest the all posts be ON TOPIC and that accusing and degrading other members for expressing their opinion might be not useful to the discussion. Every member is entitled to express their opinion without having to be subject to outright criticism and sharp remarks. Disagreement can be expressed tactfully. Thanks guys. +1 To the OP, for the outdoor/billboards that you didn't get, what line screen or LPI was used? Billboards are typically viewed from far away or often from a moving vehicle, so screens are typically very low. Outdoor signage - i.e., bus shelters, rail stations, etc - is smaller but also viewed from a closer distance I'm trying to get a sense as to how many megapixels you need to satisfy the billboard/outdoor scenario and whether there are alternatives to going FF such as high res APS-C or fractals (Gashog mentioned it). Also, is your Fuji S2Pro the camera that doesn't have enough resolution for this application?

01-26-2011, 05:14 PM	#30
Gashog Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NY Photos: Albums Posts: 523	Below ISO 3200 APS-C FinePix S5 Pro. Hand held with my "nifty 35"...Uh..I mean my "fast 35"...Uh....Oh well. Just bear in mind that this is a CCD camera from 2007. A little better then the D-200 but all the new CMOS APS-C cameras do ~25,000. Doesn't the K5 do over 50,000 ISO? At ISO 100 (where I usually shoot) I'll print as big as you want.