[dugrant153]

P.S.- I also drive a manual transmission automobile, for some of the same reasons.

Me too!! hehe... maybe this is a sign of things.
If you have one, you'll have the other?

Using the camera as it was intended, in full power mode, makes me feel like an observer rather than a creative participant,

Agreed. There's something very 'computer-ish' about it. At times it's good, but I find the camera doesn't always read your mind correctly... and doesn't expose or do this or focus right, etc.

Although, going full auto will allow you to take more shots as I find doing things manually takes more time.

[PDL]

The computerization of SLR's started back when light meters were first mounted internally. Although the inclusion of a light meter did not really remove control it did change how SLR's were designed. In the late 70's AV systems (electronically stepless shutter linked to the internal light meter via a analoge computer) increased the speed of the overall removal of individual control over the exposure process. With the advent of AF in the late 70's to today, the (excuse the following inference) idiot-proofing has gotten to the point where by default DSLR's are reduced to fancy P&S.

My Pentax SF-1 is a very frustrating machine for me to use - since it is not easy to retake control. I prefer my old manual and AV base Fujica ST-801, ST-901 and AZ-1 to the Pentax.

One of the first things I did when I got my *ist Ds is keep it in P mode until I learned the controls. Then I gradually moved to AV mode 99.99% of the time and I discovered I could de-couple AF from the shutter button. Now with the K10D I have the best of both worlds. The ability to turn the thing into a beeping, AF'ing, AE'ing, popup flashing fancy P&S or a fully manual machine where I can change the fundamental aspects (via the 2 thumb wheels) without having the thing leave my eye.

It is all about knowing what the buttons do - to do your will. However, I prefer to tell the camera what object is to be in focus (AF with the AF button - center focus spot), what is the point(s) to meter off of (AE-L) button and when to make the exposure (shutter button). I do not care to have the camera tell me- what the exposure is and what is the focus point. But then that's me.

What kind of car(s) I drive is not material to this discussion. I hate cell phones too, but what does that say about my camera.

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL

[raymeedc]

What kind of car(s) I drive is not material to this discussion.

I couldn't disagree more. I get the same feeling driving an automatic transmission as I do operating an automatic camera. Both machines feel crippled to me (in the interest of availability to the vast majority of people, I realize this is necessary, of course). A manual transmission allows me to control the torque level at any given speed, among other things. My father has the same car as mine, but it's an automatic...... drives like a dead fish, while I can make mine sing. The process is as important to me as the final result. This control is important to me in my creative endeavors..... Just my opinion.
P.S. - I don't know if this is germane to the conversation, but I also have a manual girlfriend.

[aerodave]

Well, there's certainly not a 100% correlation between camera preferences and transmission choice. I drive a manual transmission, always have, always will. I won't settle for anything else, and am perpetually annoyed and bored by automatic transmissions.

However, I don't really enjoy using manual focus on my camera. It takes too long, I have poor luck with precision, and it seems an unnecessary burden for no clear physical benefit. With a car, there are obvious benefits: a manual generally gives improved power transmission and greater fuel economy, and driver input into the choice of gear can keep the car in the right spot on the tach for upcoming conditions. An automatic transmission cannot anticipate, therefore it's at a disadvantage. I fail to see the disadvantage inherent in AF. It's quicker than I am, more accurate than I am with my matte screen, and there's no difficulty in changing the subject of interest so it will focus on what you want. The only time I routinely use manual focus is shooting macro, because I use a macro focusing teleconverter. If I was willing to pay for an AF macro lens, I'd have that too.

Manual exposure is similar in my mind. I use it with off-camera flash because Av mode isn't smart enough to do the right thing with my wireless flash transmitter (wants to expose for ambient). In regular shooting though, I don't see the benefit for me. In manual, I'm just going to adjust based on the exposure meter in the camera anyway, so why not let the camera do it. I mostly only care about aperture anyway. It makes little sense to me to use M mode outside those rare instances I deliberately want to use "improper" exposure.

I respect, and to some degree admire, people who enjoy using MF lenses on their cameras. But believe me, it's not borne of the same mentality that makes pepole drive stick. It doesn't have the same motivations rooted in sheer practicality. The obvious benefit in MF just isn't there for me.

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Last edited by aerodave; 12-05-2007 at 04:23 PM.

[PDL]

I couldn't disagree more. I get the same feeling driving an automatic transmission as I do operating an automatic camera. Both machines feel crippled to me (in the interest of availability to the vast majority of people, I realize this is necessary, of course). A manual transmission allows me to control the torque level at any given speed, among other things. My father has the same car as mine, but it's an automatic...... drives like a dead fish, while I can make mine sing. The process is as important to me as the final result. This control is important to me in my creative endeavors..... Just my opinion.
P.S. - I don't know if this is germane to the conversation, but I also have a manual girlfriend.

Just tell me how you switch the car between manual and automatic? With my *ist Ds and K10D it takes a few minutes - with your car, just how do you go to all defaults and let the car do everything except go and stop?

Poor analogy plain and simple - although if you have a Jag XKR, Maseratti or Subaru STi (paddle shifters connected to a sophisticated computers and clutches that give you control but keep you from shifting into first at 100 kph) to name a few, you just might make it work. Even the most sophisticated race cars on the planet (F1) use "clutches" but it is automatically handled in microseconds -- faster than your foot could ever be. Cars and cameras do not run in parallel and comparing the two is meaningless as I see it.

A better analogy would be a manual camera == fully manual car. Automatic camera == a P&S. DSLR's are closer to something along the lines of the F1, Cart and other highly developed cars - NASCAR need not apply (left turns only - do not run in the rain - give me a break). The key in a DSLR is the adaptability of the overall system. Capable of doing things that automatic transmissions do well (4WD and buried up to the frame in gumbo mud) and dropping down two gears to pass the slush box running slow in the lane ahead. The key is adaptability - the K10D with the User functions allow you to switch from auto, manual to mixed very quick and easy - adaptability is power and controls that allow greater creativity.

As I most likely said before - I drive a manual (Eagle Talon TSI AWD - 5 speed manual 2 liter 16 valve in-line 4 with intercooled turbo charger - positraction etc.). My wife has a auto Jag X-Type (which you can shift, but the interface needs work). My son learned on the Jag but drives a manual Subaru Impreza and does not like to drive the Jag. (Get the drift - AWD on all cars - do not drive in the rain without it).

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL

[raymeedc]

I probably did not make myself clearly understood. I did not mean to imply that manual operation is any better than automatic operation. I only meant to state that for whatever combination of reasons that inspire my approach, I prefer to operate the machines in my life manually. It gives me much greater personal satisfaction, & as I do very little action shooting, it rarely puts me at a disadvantage, the occasional missed shot (unusual, for as a longtime operator of scale focusing, non-metered cameras, my anticipatory instincts are pretty good) being the price I'm willing to pay.
This being said, I personally find manually focusing a camera to be at least as quick & accurate as the automatic focusing systems I've used. Also, not every situation requires pinpoint focusing, especially stopped down landscape shooting, of which I do a good deal of, allowing me to use pre-set hyperfocal settings, faster than any focusing system, as I'm starting out with the camera already pre-focused.
As for exposure, no matter how sophisticated the system, it & I will have to, each in our own way, can come up with only one combination of shutter speed & aperture. When I enter my shooting area, I take quick general notice of shadow & highlight area readings, & adjust the camera accordingly along the way instinctively, usually taking no further readings until the lighting changes for whatever reasons. In most cases, this doesn't require constant reading compensations, leaving my settings alone until the situation changes. This too becomes a situation which is (for me) faster than any automatic reading systems. Accuracy depends on your experience (35 years, in my case).
With film, latitude works in my favor. Shooting digitally, while yielding less latitude range (& demanding additional care to prevent blown highlights in certain shots), allows me to check my readings immediately initially. & to continue unabated from there.
Again, just my personal approach, not better or less so, in my opinion, than others.
P.S.-My automobile analogy wasn't much more than playful whimsy, not meant to invoke such serious debate.

[reeftool]

The K10 I bought recently is my first DSLR and all of automatic features seem mind boggling. I have used an SP1000 for years and grew so used to it that doing everything manually almost seemed second nature. I am still at the point of having the owners manual with me all the time just to use it but I am getting better. Auto focus is kind of nice now that my eyesight isn't what it used to be and its the only way to get one handed pictures while riding a motorcycle. LOL. Also, both my car and truck are standards, my bikes all have kickstarters.